Skaddix

1-9 For Pure Classes, 1-7 for Multiclassers and yes they start at level 1.

Indeed maybe its for balance reasons. Since Illusion seems to have gotten most of the defensive abilities, I can see why stacking that with conjuration or transmutation might cause issue and recovery time increase probably wouldn't impact you much if you just need some buffs at the start of combat.

The Priest: Gives Up 1 School, Gets 1 Bonus School and Has No Other Bonuses The Wizard: Gives up 2 Schools, Gets Increased Power Level in 1 School, 1 Special Ability and Takes a 20% Penalty in their 2 remaining School The wizard is going to need quite the power bonus and spell balance to make this worth it. The special ability is also going to have be really worth it and acquired early. Otherwise you are sacrificing a whole lot more then the Priest.

Well sure but you have a party of 4-6, CHA dumping is only a problem if you are the face or your spells scale off CHA. Which generally makes it the safest dump stat of all. A Wizard still doesnt need Strength since Dex is essentially the god stat as it impacts ranged damage, initiative and armor class. But you do summarize the key issues correctly. Make sure one stat doesnt become a god stat and make sure dumping cost even in combat. Classes exist primarily for balance I would say which helps newer players not get confused and can be used to defined personality for NPCs. It also helps you know what to expect for any given class, thus attributes help link mechanics to classes.

I think we basically agree in that the the Primary School should determine the Secondary Schools based on what it affects. Whereas with the current system I don't really think that is occurring at all.

Well sure but optimizing D&D is always about dumping at least one stat. A Wizard could easily dump Charisma and Strength and suffer not all.

If I know all my spells replenish after every battle, of course I will open up with the most powerful ones. Every time. And then work my way down gradually to lower level spells. To maximise efficiency and minimize the risk of injury. That can get predictable and boring very fast. Unless the encounter designs are always smart and unpredictable and give you something else to consider. I think the difference is Boss Fights vs Mob Fights. Since you pretty much always rest before going into a boss fight. Under the old system you have way more spells to use in the boss fight and can thus nova for the fight. However, per rest means you have to manage your spells much more carefully across a dungeon crawl since while you have more spells per encounter in the abstract you have less per rest. The new system means Boss Fights are going to be harder you cant cast nearly as much I think its about half as much. However, for clearing your mobs well you can drop your best AoEs and nuke all of them every single fight. Granted Paladins, Fighters, Rangers and Rogues can also run out of resources since only Monks, Ciphers and Chanters build up a spendable resource now.

Well I cant speak for others but when I said random I didn't mean there was no pattern to how they were selected for allied and opposed just that the logic underlying such decision was suspect so to quote myself I do it like this. Main School: Allowed Schools Conjuration: Illusion and Evocation Evocation: Conjuration and Transmutation Transmutation: Evocation and Enchantment Enchantment: Transmutation and Illusion Illusion: Enchantment and Conjuration The main school should define which other schools get selected based on its mechanics. So Conjuration is summoning things that weren't present not modifying things that are already present. Ergo Conjuration gets Evocation and Illusion because it summons them much like creatures or items. The elements for evocations come from somewhere else as do the illusions. Transmutation and Enchantment are banned because they are about modifying things that already present. Be it matter or minds. Evocation would get Conjuration and Transmutation because its about manipulating energy in this case to create items or creatures or to modify existing creatures. Energy is Matter after all. Whereas Illusions and Enchantment are banned because Illusions aren't actually anything physically and minds are more abstract as well.

Is it a 20% boost? The special abilities need to be special I guess. Anyway yes it should be a potent combo with melee classes. Course the problem is Transmutation and Conjuration presumably two of the best to mix with lose Evocation which means no AoE clearing and Illusions for defensive stuff granted the other class should compensate for that. Whereas Illusion keeps it and is more defensive in nature. So yeah for a pure wizard the cost benefit analysis seems the cost is too high. For multiclassing, we shall see when we get more numbers and spell lists but the bar is lower.

I dont know I think there will always be a least one dump stat especially if your melee only. But part of that is because its far easier to compensate for one dump stat via buffs and items then it is covering for multiple stats.

Dragon Age: Origins had something like this. Buffs reduced your maximum mana and made casting spells more difficult. It was a flexible system that let you choose between firepower or passively enhanced stats. I don't know how such a mechanic would work in a more traditional cast per rest/encounter system, though. So it wouldn't change much for Wizards or Druids from Pillars of Eternity where the best move was to buff and/or drop a big AoE spell and then get down and dirty with a summoned weapon or animal form in melee range. Buffing spells in PoE are really annoying to use because of their ridiculously short durations. Lets say the party is fighting monsters with a confusion mind attack. You need to constantly spam pause to examine status effects and cast resistance / suppression which really kills the flow of combat. A much more elegant solution would be for the spellcaster to choose an active "mind protection mode" for that fight, that would require concentration. Choose one buff kind of deal. Or if you have crazy concentration skills or some Abjurer subclass, could maybe concentrate on two simultaneous protections. There could be an added downside that offensive spells could have slower casting times or be generally weaker. A long lasting circle of protection that would give immunity to mind effects would also be a much more interesting way to handle defensive buffs. Tactics would be suddenly limited to standing inside the circle and you could even get knocked out of it. Short durations are really annoying, hope they fix that. I think switching to encounter spells from rest spells basically does that for the spellcasters. Your buffs wont be lost in a time it takes you to get to the next fight. Should be fine if you only have one spell you really need at each spell level. If you need two it could be a problem depending on how long the fights last but that is more an issue for boss fights. That is assuming buffs arent massively nerfed to compensate but a smaller party suggests that is not the case.

Yeah that is pretty useful granted means I will probably spend forever at character creation.

I was thinking the same thing. Throw in the increased power for their favoured school of magic and they probably don't lag far behind a single class non-specialist wizard when it comes to those spells. Seems likely Conjuration, Illusions and Transmutation all seem likely to pair quite well with those who want to focus on melee combat. Conjuration still seems to have the summoned weapons. Have to go elsewhere to sure up your defensives Fighter and Paladin can help. Illusions seems to have the defensive stuff like Arcane Veil. Can pair it with say Assassin to sure up taking increased damage. Transmutation allows shapeshifting into more powerful forms. Change your form to buff your stats, likely to lack mob clearing by itself though. Barb seems a great fit.

Dragon Age: Origins had something like this. Buffs reduced your maximum mana and made casting spells more difficult. It was a flexible system that let you choose between firepower or passively enhanced stats. I don't know how such a mechanic would work in a more traditional cast per rest/encounter system, though. So it wouldn't change much for Wizards or Druids from Pillars of Eternity where the best move was to buff and/or drop a big AoE spell and then get down and dirty with a summoned weapon or animal form in melee range.

Well I think they did a huge amount of rebalncing anyway with the spells moving to a per encounter basis instead of per rest. Priest all gaining restrictions on their spells list while Druids and Wizards can choose restrictions thanks to subclasses and that is not account for multiclassing coming as well.

Yeah its based on DnD where Wizards have 6 Schools and you have 2 Restricted Schools. I am fine with restricted schools but the added 20% penalty when you give up in theory 40% of your spell list seems excessive. Priest only have to give up one school and they get a whole bonus school on top seems unfair. The bonuses and boost are going to need to be super OP to make the difference for that type of loss. So I say restrict only 1 school or give up the added 20% penalty. Beyond that I have to agree yeah what schools you are losing seem arbitrary or based off internal balance for instance. ​Conjuration should have Illusions and Evocations if you ask me since the School is about bringing things into existence that arent acturally there initially while Enchantment and Transmutation are about modifying things that already exist. Transmutation seems like it fit better with Evocations and Enchantment since that would presumably be modifying matter and energy that is already present into new more useful forms. So to summarize more logically I think it should be restrict two schools and no additional penalty on allowed schools outside of primary. Main School: Allowed Schools Conjuration: Illusions and Evocation Evocation: Conjuration and Transmutation Transmutation: Evocations and Enchantment Enchantment: Transmutation and Illusions Illusions: Enchantment and Conjuration