Spider

The "few players" argument is kinda stupid in both directions, I'll give you that. The argument still doesn't quite hold up though.

Who the hell says I'm being optimistic? I've voiced my concerns on the state of NWN 2 in several threads. The cutting of the DM Client is one reason for my concerns. However, I still don't think the specific issue of the DMC being delayed is a big deal. If it is release within a reasonable time, then all is fine and well. It is symptomatic of a much larger issue and that is what concerns me more.

Darque, we've tried. The people who want to be upset will stay upset, logic has no effect in this case. Volourn, I've already told you the analogy doesn't work. It was cute the first time in a "heh" sort of way, but now it's just getting repetetive.

Only the number are five and six respectively (for the PS3). Otherwise I agree.

You call that cheap? Man, if I had to pay that much for my connection I'd scream bloody murder. For LAN connection 100/10 I pay roughly half that (and yes, that includes e-mail and webspace). And that's standard price here, maybe a bit on the expensive side even. Edit: just to clarify (since you used kp/s above), those speeds equal 8 or so mb/s downstream and 1mb upstream (theoretically 11 mb/s down, but that never ever happens)

Simple. Acoording to what you have said in the past, most people play through the game only once. You're actually using that as the basis for this whole line of arguing. So if the stuff you're talking about isn't in the game when people start a new game, they're never going to see it at all even if it gets patched in. Also, having these things in the game affects people that don't use them as well. RPGs are about creating choices and if they for instance take out the evil option, they remove my ability to choose good. Then it becomes more of an adventure game or a hackfest. The people using the DM Client are people that plan on using the game for a long time. There probably won't even be much use for the DM client for the first month or so of the games existance. Edit: And as alanschu said, how many people actually apply patches to their games? That hadn't actually crossed my mind, but it's a valid point. Everyone interested in the DM Client will be online and they will be patching (ok, maybe there is one guy or five that creates mods to dm for his/her gang of friends, neither who likes or has acces to patches, but that figure is so miniscule that it can be ignored).

It's not the fact that doesn't make sense, it's the analogy. If we're talking about cutting completely it works, but if we're talking about cutting at release and patching it in at a later date, then it falls apart at the seems.

The only person who's ever said anything about a month is me. And I only used it as an example. No one has any idea on when the DMC patch will be released. Could be days after release (remember, the gold copy goes out something like two weeks before the game hits retail) and it could be months.

I doubt that will happen. Atari isn't in the best financial shape, I think they need to have this game on the streets as planned.

I don't know if I agree with you. But first a caveat. The theory put forth in this post is just that, a theory. It's completely hypothetical. I do not intend to accuse Nathaniel Chapman of being a lier, I simply don't have enough insight to him or Obsidian to make that judgement. So with that being said, the theory goes something like this: With all the stuff being cut recently, people on boards are becoming more and more worried. The DM Client may not appear on release, the campaign is being shortened etc. If people start thinking the game is going to be short and incomplete they will start talking, in fact threads like that has already appeared. Now, ponder for a second that something actually has gone wrong during development. That they are starting to feel rushed and that the game will be very short. If they go out and say that, they will lose a lot of customers. So saying nothing is indeed better. But what if Atari's marketing department is starting to worry. What if they issue an order that if any estimates are going to be given out, they are to be 30-40 hours. And the kick of it is, it's so far out from release that if the game do end up 20 hours long and they get called on it, they can still say it was just an estimate and that things change in 4 months. Still, they will have gotten the results they need, the fan base will be somewhat appeased and the sales during the first week (which is a majority) won't suffer at all. Like I said, this is all purely hypothetical, but it is an explanation why Obsidian would lie rather than say nothing. I'm not saying they are and I'm definitely hoping they're not. But it's still possible.

Well, they will still send out review copies. Even though reviews tend to be a biased, they still help in making an informed decision. Also, there are people for whom the length of the SP campaign is irrelevant since their main interest is the tool set. They can probably be relied upon to be honest.

I don't know, I'm with Gromnir on this one. I just find it odd that a 20+ hour estimate is made, then a lot of stuff (including game areas) get cut and all of a sudden it's 30-40 hours. Which conveniently enough is a number a lot of people (me included) could find themselves settling for. It all seems a bit... well, convenient. Add to this (also something Gromnir pointed out) the fact that all of these cuts were revealed after Ferret was removed from his position. Does nathaniel Chapman have any reason to lie? Yeah, actually he does. If there is an order from Atari's marketing or the bio bosses not to give out any other figures than 30-40 hours, that is one reason. Is he lying? Now that is the true question here. I really have no idea. I hope he isn't, but there is no way of telling. I haven't seen him post enough to be able to have an opinion on that. However, I do believe what JE says and if he says no one can make such an estimate at this time I do find it odd that an estimate is made none the less. All we can do is wait, I guess. But I am keeping my enthusiasm on hold for a bit.

I've posted my arguments in other threads and don't feel like repeating them. I'll summarize though: If the DM Client is important to anyone, I advice that person to simply not buy the game until the client's been released.

The text was readable on the low res version for me, at least when viewing full screen. Or it would have been if they hadn't clicked past it so fast (and I didn't feel like pausing every second).

Sorry Llyranor, your post appeared while I was posting. Mine was directed to HH (so I added the quote now). Although I guess it actually would apply to you as well. The key in it all is branding. They (Microsoft) want to take control over the livingroom and the X-box is a huge part in that strategy. Exactly what their plans for Vista are I'm not sure, but they are trying to force gamers to switch (which makes sense since they are the ones with computers that can take advantage of it). Having X-box games playable on the PC probably isn't seen as a feasible solution though, since that'll bring with it exactly the kinds of QA problems consoles wants to avoid. Stuff like incompatible hardware etc.

Yeah, if that is what Microsoft wanted. But it's not. They want to brand the X-box so they can gain on Sony in the console market. They've already got complete dominance when it comes to PC gaming, so they hardly need that. True, they ARE trying to force everyone to get Vista, so they could use JE2 for that, although I still think that series are ill-suited for the computer. Once the port is done we'll see how the controls work, then further speculation may be warranted. Edit: quote added

Why should they try to make more money? If going exclusive secures the highest profits (not to mention publicity snice exclusive titles are heavily marketed) then why should they take another route? Just because they now has a lot of cash it doesn't mean that they will start caring less about how much money they make. The $300 millions invested need to be repaid somehow. As for the JE PC version, my guess is that the exclucivity contract expired and Microsoft weren't interested in porting it. I will be very surprised if JE2 isn't an X-box exclusive. Another thing about exclusivity. There are plenty of examples of developers that don't need the financial security that exclusivity brings, but choses to go that route anyway. I'm sure Square could afford to release Final Fantasy on other platforms than the Playstation, and I'm pretty sure Rockstar is in a similar situation with the GTA series.

But this was exactly the point of Indigo Prophecy. You were playing a movie and that they managed to keep that stylistic vision intact throughout the game is what made it unique. (what made it good was the story and the characters)

Why shouldn't they? Having Microsoft as a publisher is probably a great deal, especially for those who sign exclusivity contracts. Besides, there's probably a contract in place that gives Microsoft the right to publish a sequel.

But you're still not answering the question. You're describing why it's bad not to have the DM client in the game and I get that. But what I want to know is how your gaming experience will differ from the DM client being released a month later. All you have to do is to wait until the client is released to buy the game (if you are indeed buying it at all) and your gaming experience will be virtually identical. Or even improved since a patch will hopefully taken care of any bugs in the game upon release.

It's not the same thing though. Here we are talking two completely different components of one game, not sections within a component. This is not an issue of bugs but of missing content that has no effect at all on the gameplay. As for Bloodlines, I played it unpatched and had no problems with bugs. There was only one I really noticed and while that one was sever I quickly found a workaround. But you're still avoiding the question. I am, of course, assuming that you won't buy the game until the DM component is released since it's so important to you. I've already gotten your answer, so this really wasn't directed to you. And even so, the question makes the assumption that the client will be released, so the answer doesn't work.

Two?There's more than two sheets and they're on top a few cds and a notepad. And some other stuff. And the ciar cleverly covers the right part, although there's less stuff there. But yeah, it oculd be worse, and in the past it has been.

That's not what I said at all. I was explaining why people who complain about rushed games thought it was fine that the DM client wasn't in on release. I was in no way arguing from Obsidian's point of view. But still, you haven't answered the most relevant question. If the DM client is released a month after the game goes retail, how does your experience change compared to the game being delayed an extra month?

Except the promise they made in the post quoted. I know it's not a legal obligation, but it speaks clearly to their intent. So obligation or not, it seems to be likely that the DM client will be released. Edit: It's because in this case a lot of the people won't even consider looking at the DM-client, so not having it in the game on release won't affect their gaming experience at all. So instead of being forced to wait for a feature that has no consequence to them, they'd rather have the game released. Again, if you just don't buy the game until it's released it won't have any effect on your experience either.

That's a good thing tho... I honestly don't see the big deal here. Under the assumption that the tool kit will be produced, we have two possibilities: 1: The game gets released on time, say in september, and the DM client gets released a while, say a month, afterwards. 2: The whole game is delayed until the DM client is ready and gets released in october. With option 1, if the toolkit is what makes or breaks the game for you, you can just wait a month before you buy it and it will be virtually identical for you as if the game was released as described in option 2. The only thing that differs is that those who don't give a damn about the DM client will have the option of getting the game in september. Or am I missing something? Volourns argument that if it's not in the game at release they may not do it at all is more understandable, but I personally don't think that'll come to pass.