ap76

I am a few posts late, but the holding cell and more realistic bounty hunting would be a great addition to a game. More non-lethal resolutions would be good as well

The turret fire had ceased in and around the trench when Vader and his wingmen entered the scene. There was a line in the movie about this I think.

Jediphile - OK, I am going to try to keep this one a bit shorter: Audience/Revan & Exile - I think that referring to the previous PCs only in a historical or cutscene sense will ultimately be how it plays out. That will likely be the only way to cover the Audience factor. Gender/Alignment - Jedi not being allowed attachments or a Sith lord heading off to wherever will cover the romance factor. I think overall alignment for Revan has to be DS, he went there once, it is not a stretch to do it again no matter how you played K1 K3 Generation - I should hae just said "gamers" I only have a PC, so the other stuff doesn't enter mind. But the XBOX factor is a good point. But I will never buy a console for 1 game. Age Gap - sorry, I meant viewer/audience age gap, not character age gap. Hopefully my point is clearer in that context Closure(K1/K2) - They added material after resolution to K1 and K2 to make room for a sequel. That's a lot different than telling an epic story in 2 or 3 installments. You said it yourself, it was a set up, not a natural continuation. Kreia's defeat is the resolution to K2, Malak's is resolution for K1. There was no 2nd act climax in K2, which is disappointing. Ep1-6 - I agree for the new generation, the story is about Anakin/Vader. For my generation it was about Luke, Han, and Leia - and I hate to say this, but it was ruined. The whole point of the Trilogy was to find out that Vader was our hero's (luke) father. When viewed 1-6, that becomes trivial. ugh! Trilogy - I disagree ,the story for 4-6 (and the idea of 1-3) was set before 4 was made. The story was pared down to a 2 hr moive so you got a modified Act 1 that was set up to manage risk in case of commercial failure. The story was already written with the End of Ep5 being the trilogy's climactic moment. The plot wasn't reopened in Ep5, it was continued. Listen to the George Lucas interviews from about 1997 when the original trilogy was rereleased, he describes this in detail. Again I agree, ultimately, the story is about Vader. But for my generation, it wasn't...nor will it ever be. Resolution for E4 was merely a fail-safe. Great debate though! -ap76

Jediphile - All good points, I think I blurbed somwhere that I don't know much about the EU. And it shows in this instance. Bummer on the Ragnos & Nadd thing, that would be fun to play. I guess my main point for leaving this storyline and moving on to a new one was that there were so many variables between 1&2 that trying to work all of that in to a finale could be a major setup for disappointment. The other issue from a marketability standpoint is that you have to be careful not to create a situation where you would have needed to play 1 & 2 to understand 3. In 2, when you are setting Revan's gender/alignment, I agree that it is very subtle and doesn't tie up the game getting that established. Also it needed to be done to satisfy those who had played 1 a particular way. But if you hadn't played 1 and you are faced with a dialogue response that says "I thought Revan was a man." you'd be thinking, "well what does that have to do with anything?" Case in point, on my last replay, when I got to that part, I basically ignored the question that set's Revan's gender. I think I just used a standard response, not sure. Anyway, then I finally got enough repair and influence to get T3 to show the Onasi video and he's going on about "she this" and "her that", and I am thinking "what?, I thought Bastila went dark and I killed her." Anyway, it took a bit before it became clear what was going on. Now you have that potential issue with two PCs. It is going to be interesting to see if it can be pulled off without being too cheesy, causing confusion, and not affecting people who have never played. So that is why I would advocate moving either way back, or way ahead. Not that it is impossible, but the expectations on plot completion are so high from former players, some of whom probably write reviews for gaming mags, the real question becomes..... When approaching marketability and commercial success, is the reward of getting it right worth the risk of getting it wrong? So, I would close with this, if K3 will be a storyline follow up, and it was mine to write, I would probably take the safe route and come up with a catch all genderless backstory cut scene in the beginning that sets the alignment of Revan and Exile one way or another. I work on new product development quite a bit, and from a business standpoint, this is how I think you'd have to approach it. The risk has to be managed very carefully. Remember that by the time we ever see a K3 (2007- there will be a whole new generation of PC Gamers that were probably under age 10 when K1 came out. The movies handled the age gap well. they went far enough back to tell a story that made the new generation want to see what happened next. Fortunately it probably won't be 20 years for K3, but still, it is marketing consideration, or it should be. See where I struggle is that the Star Wars saga (and I mean ep 4-6) was origninally a traditional 3 act play. E4 sets up the most climactic part of the entire saga which is in E5. E6 is the resolution to E5. E1-3, while good movies, are just deeper backstory. E3 stumbled a bit I thought to make me buy off on Anakin's fall to the DS and it also failed to clearly pass the torch to Luke. See if you watch them in actual order 1-6 then story quickly changes from a story of Darth Vader to a story of Luke Skywalker. When E4 was written, the risk was managed. If it flopped at the box office, the story was resolved. If it was a hit, on to E5. IMHO, Acts 1 and 2, maybe even 3 were played out in KOTOR 1. The PC being revealed as Revan was, by traditional means, supposed to be in Act 2, and thus near the end of K2. K3 would then easily have been Malaks death, redemption, etc....... But it didn't play out that way, and now the story has gone off on 2 tangents and K3, if it is to follow storyline, will be done so not to tie up the loose ends, but just to build off the commercial success of 1 & 2. Ask yourself this, would Ep1 been such a hit without Ep4-6? E1-3 really only served to fill in details. It didn't add to the original story very much. I would have been just as happy with 4-6 only. And this is really why I'd rather leave Revan behind, and set out to tell a story in a more Shakespearian way, in the way of the original trilogy. In closing, I will say that I am leaning this way partially because I am really bummed out with Empire At War. The story is set just before Ep4 and the Death Star already works and blows up planets. That doesn't fit with Ep4 at all, and as soon as that happened I quit playing the game. Waste of 50 bucks. -ap76

You have my vote, I have seen enough of Dantooine. It always puzzled me why the Council would choose a high profile target to assemble on.

Ok - I will await your storyline proposal and keep an open mind. In the interim, I will try to pose some more questions that draw out thought as related to finishing 1&2 plotlines. 1. Can we effectively (from the Events in KOTOR 2?) draw the conclusion that Exile went looking for Revan? (FYI I really never did a DS ending in KOTOR2) 2. In the KOTOR 2 party, other than GOTO, T3 & HK, is there a party member who's path is consistent regardless of PCs actions? I ask because that member would be the easiest to transition into a plot role in the 3rd go around 3. I have seen some chatter about training a Jedi to go looking for Revan & Exile. OK but would this be trusted to a Padawan? 4. We need a new Jedi Council. (Bastila, Brianna, Visas?) What if you went DS? Can we find a way to raise Kavar and the others from the dead? Except we murder them as DS players, so no I guess they're out. 5. If Revan was inherently LS, why would he go into hiding and leave the Republic and Jedi Order in a shambles? This behavior seems to run him down the DS no matter how you played him in K1. Using the lightest K2 description of Revan, can you still bridge that gap and get him to fall again (off camera so to speak)? If so, how much of a cutscene will it take to make that believable. 6. If we are to start off with a trained Jedi, we need him/her to come from somewhere. Were there other's on Exile's Council in the cut scene that weren't in the game. 7. The Sith need to make a comeback, and Korriban is a train wreck. I agree that I have played on that planet enough, but this is a pivotal location in Sith history...>>There's a holocron still sitting there that may help unlock the secret's to Revans fate?!?!? 8. At some point, the Sith decide that there will only ever be 2, an apprentice and a master, instead of these Grand Armies of dark jedi. When and how does this come about? Can K3 end on this point? Think about it, the sith are in turmoil when there's a Kreia, Atris, Nilihous, Revan, etc floating about. Does Revan go off to contemplate this and kill off the remaining sith to either a) wipe them out-LS, or b) cleanse the order of the weak-DS. Does exile go to rescue, eliminate or join him? Does Exile finally unlock the navicomputer on the Ebon Hawk, was it a message for him left by Revan? 9. Is it possible for Revan to be Darth Plagus? I am not a huge EU reader so I am not sure how much of those stories have been covered already. But the Plagus story from Ep3 works well for Revan and Exile. 10. If you go down the path of #9, could a 3rd party be LS until killing Revan and then the power of Revan be infused upon him to create Plagus. In the Star Wars universe, no episode has to have a happy ending. Ep3 is proof if that. Maybe it's time for a very dark and emotional ending.

I had a similar problem on Nar Shadda. Changed party members was sent through a wall into Mira's hideout, before Mira was in the story.....trapped. Reloaded.

Hawk - You make a great point on the star forge! That is a predetermied storyline and would make a great "outcast type" action game. Maybe that would quench the thirst of those "revanites" who really didn't like turn based combat. I am reading the rest of the post still, so, give me a few min to reply again, but that idea on the Star Forge was great. Would make an awesome, albeit huge, mod for Jedi Academy and a better standalone game

No, you're not alone. I do just the same and for the same reason. HK-47 may have some cool comments, but other than that he is just as pathetic as every other ranged fighter. I always go with three jedi-types if at all possible. And if I can't, then I tend to choose a human(oid) ranged fighter over any of the droids. Have used T3 on a few occasions, though, due to the heal-option you get with him after repairing all his damage, which I always do. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I was able to make use of out ranged fighters with a good heavy duty upgraded weapon prior to getting a lightsaber, like on Dantooine. as for droids, unless I am playing Guardian, i usually have enough computer skill to not need T3 for making spikes.

The only reason I took Mira over Brianna was that I put Mira in charge of the party on Dxun, and she rocked as a Jedi. Very efficient with a lightsaber. Brianna, even with 2 handed master, tended to run in and nearly get killed every battle. Also, I couldn't use her for Jedi Support very effectively either. Visas was probably the best I used at Jedi Support. The only way I was able to make Brianna truly useful was to max out the team fighting and 2 handed fighting and never use her as leader. otherwise, I kept burning Mira and Visas' FP to heal her.

I liked the concept of the influence engine. I wish it could have been expanded, say for instance losing influence with Bao-Dur simply for not taking him with you on a mission that played into his strengths. I know at lot of people have commented on wanting an influence meter, but I would rather leave it alone, as you don't get an influence meter in life. Rather I would like to see the party member's attitude toward you change based on your influence with them. I also like the idea that you can play it as complex or as simple as you want. e.g. sometimes I am working on one specific aspect of the game and don't want to take the type to custom level up the party members, etc.

Well as long as we're on the subject of Laptops, how does this play on a laptop IBM R51 1.6Ghz Centrino 256MB RAM Intel Graphics 64MB RAM PS I don't mind dialing the graphics waaaay back when playing on this, it is just for something to do when I travel

yeah I got hung up there 1st time through too. Kept waiting for a cutscene. Finally figured it out

Sentinel is certainly advantageous if you don't plan to make the best use out of your party members. Sentinel seems to get your through the game pretty quickly if that's what you are trying to accomplish

Wish I could of had the K1 storyline in a K2 interface. Love the influence feature. That concept has a lot of room to grow. K1 was truly a remarkable story, I loved it. I must respectfully disagree about E3 being the best. When I first saw it, I just didn't buy off on Anakin's fall to the dark side, sorry. It seemed rushed to me. Personally, I am one of the odd ones who over the years has come to embrace E5 as my favorite movie, which took me a good 20 years! -ap76

I agree, dark side should be reflected very little in physical appearance. Tyranus and Sidious both had no/litle physical appearance of evil. The most fun I had playing was getting to full DSP and then reversing half way to get to full LSP Unfortunately I was in Sith prestige class so I didn't really get to test influence as far as I wanted to

Here are some more general plotline thoughts that could be worked in or used as a basis: 1. How did the Sith settle on Korriban for their academy? 2. Where did the "no attachments" rule within the Jedi Order originate? Is this how Jedi fell to the darkside originally........ 3. When did the prophecy of the chosen one come about? 4. How did the Mandalorian Wars begin? (this one has potential to use the Revan/Malak connection.....) 5. What is the story of Marka Ragnos? 6. What about Exar Kun? 7. When did the Republic first rise to power? 8. Why do PCs always start with no power? Why not start a Jedi/Sith Master and try to train Padawan/Apprentice who may or may not ultimately turn on you? INFLUENCE options could really be expanded here 9. How often do Jedi need to interact with the Jedi Council? Can a jedi/jedi master fall because of the perceived complacency or arrogance of the Jedi Council? (Darth Tyranus) 10. Why is it when a Sith Lord attacks one person in a group, every one in the group continues to attack? Why doesn't any other NPC run/beg for mercy? Just some more food for thought! AP76

I have skimmed most of the previous forums, so I hope I am not dredging up "issues" that will cause hate and discontent. To me, the storyline is the central key to the success of the game. The next keys are major themes and features. I really don't care about small customizations....hilts, facial features, etc. Those features certainly add personalization to the experience, but ultimately I want to be able to immerse myself in the story itself. Let me preface by stating that I bought both games on the same day and played them back to back. The biggest letdown on KOTOR2 was the lack of a huge revelation within the story. I was really not expecting to find out in KOTOR that the main character was indeed Revan. That was awesome! It certainly made the game worth playing. However, it did not make me want to replay it, and in fact, I haven't. KOTOR 2 on the other hand was a 2X replay. Once to play as DS and once to use a walkthrough and complete some sidequests and/or explore the influence features in greater detail. I could probably replay one more round to check out more influence on DS characters, but I think I am done for a while. The problem you have now is that you have a situation of trying to follow 2 stories, which I don't think you'll be able to do and make it convincing. KOTOR was a storyline success I think because is was disconnected from the rest of the SW world and you could start a whole new story without limits. This brings me to my ultimate point and suggestion. Forget a follow up. Go back again. I have played 4 SW RPGs: KOTOR, KOTOR 2, SW: Jedi Oucast, and SW: Jedi Academy. There is one character who has been present in 3 of those 4 games........Marka (or Marko) Ragnos. in KOTOR 2, on Korriban, Kreia begins the story of the Galactic struggle for power not only within the Sith faction, but there also allusions in KOTOR 2 about the Great Hyperspace War as well. There are still stories of Fredon Nadd, Ajunta Pall, Ragnos, the Republic that haven't been told. We have heard the beginnings of a story about the greatest wielder of a lightsaber ever........ To make this a truly great game/storyline, you'll almost have to shed yourself all boundaries and limits. To do that, you are going to have to leave the KOTOR & KOTOR 2 Storylines behind, as resolving them both in one episode will never meet everyone's expectations. New storyline, new time equals no expectations or limits. The closest (in time) that any future game can be to KOTOR or KOTOR 2 would be a cutscene at the end of Malak and Revan arriving at Dantooine to begin their Jedi training together. Wouldn't a prequel be true Star Wars fashion anyway? Exile's story has been told and resolved. The future of the party was told as well. Revan's story should have been resolved in KOTOR 2. It's too late to go back to him now and make it believable. We should have known what happened to him already. But it wasn't, and maybe a little mystery is a good thing. Besides, how can you p/u with Revan? I may have played him with one personality and someone else with another...you can't possibly satisfy all of the permuations of Revan's character available in KOTOR. Stick with the same interface, turn based combat is ok now that I am used to it, expand on the influence feature, and make sure you have some great sidequests in there. But above all, make it a great story. Playing KOTOR was better than watching EP3. Remember that the success of Star Wars is ultimately about the epic struggle between good and evil. It's not about any single character. Good Luck, I look forward to the game.....although I am sure my wife doesn't! AP76