brindle88

I can't believe these other posters where arguing with me that a paladin will deal more dps then a fighter. It was like having an argument with someone that they where trying to convince me the sky is pink not blue.

After all my play throughs on POTD I have only really found three game breaking talents/ synergies (in order) - the ciphers amplified wave: how the fk this has not been nerfed I have no idea. You press a button and everyone falls to the ground. If you had two ciphers in your team you could do this twice for the ones that failed there saves. It really is a god like power. If you look at all the spells in bg2 there is nothing as powerful as this. Btw please don't nerf this obsidian. - a melee rogue, dual wield pergatory and resolution, gambions padded armour (that gives haste), rot finger gloves (to straight away put afflictions on the entire mob so sneak attack and DEATHBLOWS are activated), select talents that increase accuracy as much as possible, max perception, select talents that will maximise sneak attacks and deathblows and crits. If you build a rogue like this you WILL break the game. I've tried it , I've done it it is impossible for anyone to argue this. - the Druids spell relentless storm

What do you think the most over powered build in the game I so wise one?

I don't love my cliché fighter, I found fighters quite boring but I reckon they do more dps then a paladin. And I still think they do. I do dearly love my dps rogue and I would bet my life savings It can build the strongest build in the game.

ok ill give it a try my next play through, I hope your right, I wont be playing again until WMP2 though Keep in mind I never said paladins where crap, I said I think they where fun to play. It is also clear that intelligence buffs nearly all the paladins abilities. It is also clear the dispel magic the paladin uses is terrible as it does not remove the charm/ stun afflictions (bizarrely) Aslo sacred immolation is not available until nearly the end of the game.

And rogues are a completely different issue, again you would never build a tanky rogue, you would be wasting the rogues strong points just like you have wasted the paladins strong points by trying to build a dps paladin that it is inferior to both rogues and fighters

I didn't seem to have any issues with survivability on any classes on path of the dammed. My rules where that I used 2 tanks and maxed there resolve and the never lowered constitution below 8 for ANY class including my tanks, casters, rogues ect. I dumped resolve for spell casters and rangers. My tanks never had shields, I used 2 fighters one specialised in greatsword, the other estoc. I did this to punch through damage reduction. All stats where maxed to increase dps with the fighters (after pumping resolve) and all talents selected upon level up where aimed to increase dps. I tried doing this with paladins but it is not correct to say they can get anywhere near the dps of a fighter. I also strongly disagree that you can have a low intelligence for a paladin to work properly. Your auro would Definatley not cover your entire melee party with 10 intelligence, you can increase it by up to 50% by increasing int? you would have to have both your tanks right next to each other for this to work! that is bad positioning! you would get flanked and your casters will be killed. At the end of the day the game is not really that challenging even on POTD. If you have a cipher and once you get amplified wave you basically beat the game as soon as you get it anyway.

There are 3 answers to this question 1. Why on earth would you build a paladin with low resolve? He is front line, he is melee, he is your tank. You will just be wasting ability points on other attributes that will not enhance the paladins strengths. You will build a weak paladin (especially on POTD) 2. A dps fighter will wipe the floor with a paladin, they can dump int and they have access to abilities to choose from at level up greatly increase dps. Alll melee classes will out dps a paladin. If you wanted a dps tank build a fighter 3. So the paladins strengths are tanking and buffs, you should build to enhance these qualities. Fighters are pretty much trash, bad abilities and do nothing to help the team. Your DPS fighter will probably have something like this: Might 18 Con 10 Dex 15 Per 15 Int 3 Res 17 - to balance out the low will from dumped intellect Talents - Weapon spec, focus, mastery, confident aim, vigorous defense, armored grace, sundering blow, two handed style, savage attack, and vulnerable attack. Damage will be +24% Might, +15% spec, +10% mastery, +20% savage attack +13.5% Confident aim (+20 minimum, plus the graze to hit roughly equal to 13.5%), +15% two handed style = +97.5% with +15 -20 +16 = +11% speed increase Defenses will be +8 Fortitude, +10 Reflex, and +0 Will, +7 deflection. All increased by +20 for like 10 seconds when Vigorous defense is activated. A Paladin (using my PotD Kind Wayfarer) Might 18 Con 10 Dex 10 Per 15 Int 10 Res 15 Talents - weapon focus, savage attack, vulnerable attack, flames of devotion, Lay on Hands, accuracy aura, sacred immolation, liberating exhortation, reinforcing exhortation, strange mercies, deep faith, scion of flames, two handed style. Damage will be +24% might, +15% two handed style, +20% savage attack = +59% damage at -20% speed plus the AoE burn from Sacred Immolation defenses will be +35 Fortitude (+8 +27), +37 Reflex (+10 +27), +32 Will (+5 +27), +18 (+5 +13) deflection team benefits of accuracy aura, lay on hands, liberating and reinforcing exhortations and AoE heal from Sacred Immolation The Fighter swings 31% faster and 38.5% harder against one target. Unit damage would be 1.11*1.97 = 2.19 Paladin would be 0.8*1.59 = 1.272 weapon + 1.44 (scion of flames and Might) Sacred Immolation for 2.71. Each additional target would further the gap. With Sacred Immolation (base damage same as two handed weapon) the Paladin will out damage against just one enemy, and be much more defensive and help the team. No reason to even bother comparing a Monk to a Fighter, they are not even in the same league. If there were PvP Monks would be banned. A single summoned Twin could give a Fighter a hard fight, two would woop his ass, two plus the Monk himself could hold the Fighter down and sodomize him That's quite an analysis. I would not build a fighter like that, I would not pick vigorous defence, sundering blow or vulnerable attack ( why the hell would you pick this when you already will punch through damage reduction). So that leaves a big heap of other talents available to increase dps and deflection.Perception should Be maxed con should be lowered. On your paladin: - you have low intelligence, you have nerfed all your abilities. Intelligence needs to be minimum of 16. You will need to take these points from might, therefore you may as well not even put any points into might as an extra 2 will not be relevant. - your accuracy aura will be so small it will only affect your paladin, so it's not really an aura. - out of all your talent selections you have picked for the paladin, you have selected 5 that a fighter can pick anyway. - the exhortations are useless, they do not work on charm, confused stunned. - that flaming sword talent is only for use twice. - sacred immolation is only available at the very end of the game If the exhortations worked properly eg they really did act as a dispel magic and remove charm and paralysed related affects paladins would actually work. They care currently a second rate fighter/ priest. But still fun to play like is said, but Definately not a power build

There are 3 answers to this question 1. Why on earth would you build a paladin with low resolve? He is front line, he is melee, he is your tank. You will just be wasting ability points on other attributes that will not enhance the paladins strengths. You will build a weak paladin (especially on POTD) 2. A dps fighter will wipe the floor with a paladin, they can dump int and they have access to abilities to choose from at level up greatly increase dps. Alll melee classes will out dps a paladin. If you wanted a dps tank build a fighter 3. So the paladins strengths are tanking and buffs, you should build to enhance these qualities. Fighters are pretty much trash, bad abilities and do nothing to help the team. Your DPS fighter will probably have something like this: Might 18 Con 10 Dex 15 Per 15 Int 3 Res 17 - to balance out the low will from dumped intellect Talents - Weapon spec, focus, mastery, confident aim, vigorous defense, armored grace, sundering blow, two handed style, savage attack, and vulnerable attack. Damage will be +24% Might, +15% spec, +10% mastery, +20% savage attack +13.5% Confident aim (+20 minimum, plus the graze to hit roughly equal to 13.5%), +15% two handed style = +97.5% with +15 -20 +16 = +11% speed increase Defenses will be +8 Fortitude, +10 Reflex, and +0 Will, +7 deflection. All increased by +20 for like 10 seconds when Vigorous defense is activated. A Paladin (using my PotD Kind Wayfarer) Might 18 Con 10 Dex 10 Per 15 Int 10 Res 15 Talents - weapon focus, savage attack, vulnerable attack, flames of devotion, Lay on Hands, accuracy aura, sacred immolation, liberating exhortation, reinforcing exhortation, strange mercies, deep faith, scion of flames, two handed style. Damage will be +24% might, +15% two handed style, +20% savage attack = +59% damage at -20% speed plus the AoE burn from Sacred Immolation defenses will be +35 Fortitude (+8 +27), +37 Reflex (+10 +27), +32 Will (+5 +27), +18 (+5 +13) deflection team benefits of accuracy aura, lay on hands, liberating and reinforcing exhortations and AoE heal from Sacred Immolation The Fighter swings 31% faster and 38.5% harder against one target. Unit damage would be 1.11*1.97 = 2.19 Paladin would be 0.8*1.59 = 1.272 weapon + 1.44 (scion of flames and Might) Sacred Immolation for 2.71. Each additional target would further the gap. With Sacred Immolation (base damage same as two handed weapon) the Paladin will out damage against just one enemy, and be much more defensive and help the team. No reason to even bother comparing a Monk to a Fighter, they are not even in the same league. If there were PvP Monks would be banned. A single summoned Twin could give a Fighter a hard fight, two would woop his ass, two plus the Monk himself could hold the Fighter down and sodomize him That's quite an analysis. I would not build a fighter like that, I would not pick vigorous defence, sundering blow or vulnerable attack ( why the hell would you pick this when you already will punch through damage reduction). So that leaves a big heap of other talents available to increase dps and deflection.Perception should Be maxed con should be lowered. On your paladin: - you have low intelligence, you have nerfed all your abilities. Intelligence needs to be minimum of 16. You will need to take these points from might, therefore you may as well not even put any points into might as an extra 2 will not be relevant. - your accuracy aura will be so small it will only affect your paladin, so it's not really an aura. - out of all your talent selections you have picked for the paladin, you have selected 5 that a fighter can pick anyway. - the exhortations are useless, they do not work on charm, confused stunned. - that flaming sword talent is only for use twice. - sacred immolation is only available at the very end of the game

There are 3 answers to this question 1. Why on earth would you build a paladin with low resolve? He is front line, he is melee, he is your tank. You will just be wasting ability points on other attributes that will not enhance the paladins strengths. You will build a weak paladin (especially on POTD) 2. A dps fighter will wipe the floor with a paladin, they can dump int and they have access to abilities to choose from at level up greatly increase dps. Alll melee classes will out dps a paladin. If you wanted a dps tank build a fighter 3. So the paladins strengths are tanking and buffs, you should build to enhance these qualities. Faith and conviction defeats the need for max resolve allowing dps stats. Unless you're building a pure tank there is no need. Sworn enemy (20% damage and 15 acc) negates the advantage of specialization and mastery. Sure it's only 3 uses and single target but that's enough for the important fights each rest. Critical focus and confident aim probably cancel each other out. Zealous auras add something as well. Throw in the other abilities and it's just flavor. For me, exhortations and lay on hands are very specific tactical skills which add a lot of utility to the Paladin. Fighter skills just arent as interesting to me. Yes but the opportunity cost of selecting all these talents on a paladin that enhances deflection and dps is the cost of not being able to select the talents that they where built for. Paladins have a huge range of buffs, debufffs to choose from and foregoing them to attempt to create a second rate fighter is not effective.

Playing pillars for me was the equivalent of not being able to put a good book down, reading it from cover to cover. By far the best game I have played since bg2. You guys made something great and you have the opportunity to make something legendary with pillars 2 (if you make it haha). Bg2 had that awe inspiring startling originality with the right mix of a lot off features. I'm sure pillars 2 will be better. If I could throw in my 2 cents worth I would just say: balancing in a way that takes the fun out of combat eg creating mediocre talents and low powered magic items is not the only way to do it. You can create more challenging circumstances while still giving the players the feeling of raw power and fulfilment, which is what the original D&D was all about remember? Gaining levels and becoming master of the universe. Having said that congrats on the game and well done. I have just downloaded sword coast legends it is not even in the same league as pillars of eternity, pillars is on another level, a far better game.

There are 3 answers to this question 1. Why on earth would you build a paladin with low resolve? He is front line, he is melee, he is your tank. You will just be wasting ability points on other attributes that will not enhance the paladins strengths. You will build a weak paladin (especially on POTD) 2. A dps fighter will wipe the floor with a paladin, they can dump int and they have access to abilities to choose from at level up greatly increase dps. Alll melee classes will out dps a paladin. If you wanted a dps tank build a fighter 3. So the paladins strengths are tanking and buffs, you should build to enhance these qualities.

How can a ranger match the dps of a cipher or rogue? If you are high level, I suggest using paladin and chanter as tanks. Fighter, monk and barbarian are tankier but they lack the versatility of paladin and chanter. In my opinion, a good party should have 2 front line tankers, 2 second line casters equipped with hatchet and shield (wizard sucks so use a priest and a druid here) 2 3rd line damage dealers with 3 con and 3 res ( 2 ciphers would be good. lots of cc and huge damage output) I should have been more specific. I was basing it from the limited class list. If we're talking about all classes, then Highest sustained DPS is the ranger, because of the passive bonuses on the pet and other stuff. Of course if you lose the pet, and don't have stun locks on the ranger weapons, well, it isn't that high of a dps output. Ciphers have two spells, echo and antipathetic that have the highest Damage Per Second of any class, other than maybe some barbarian aoes or Fire aoe healing powers from the paladin. But those two spells are single cast abilities and may only hit like 1 to a few more people, if your position is good. So ciphers are good spike dps, but sustainable is left up to their weapon auto attack usually. The Ranger's dps and cc only gets better at higher levels. But the cipher and rogues have more front loaded dps. You see them at earlier levels and they can also dish them out earlier in a fight. The other bonus for ranger dps is that because they can hit out so far, they can afford to wear zero armor. Which helps their recovery, as they have no recovery time, other than base duration on weapon rof. This isn't noticeable in short fights, which is why I say ranger sustained dps is higher. A rogue melee has to position themselves and a rogue ranged type is still pretty close to the action. So a ranged rogue wouldn't work the same way because some of their talents really really need the melee dual weapon hits to dish out the pain. There will also be times when the enemy doesn't qualify for a sneak attack, although that is mitigated by critical build rogues. For the ranger, it can keep a target stun locked all the time with stun hit talent at high level. So to directly address your question, a ranger can equal a cipher and a rogue's dps when the ranger applies that dps equally, over a sustained period of time, to all enemies on screen. There's no huge jagged waves going up or down in the dps chart due to rogue or cipher abilities. There's usually little to zero dps lost from moving around. Being a ranged user, the ranger can also focus fire to make the best use of dps against weakened targets. So if anyone is stunned or cced, they can get hit by the ranger for more damage, whereas other people may reach that target only when the cc wears off. There's also driving flight + twinned arrows, but I'm more thinking of builds lower level than that. For the priest, I only cast iconic or repulsing see if the situation needed it. But when I did, they changed the field tactically, so it was very noticeable. A ranger Definately not is capable of doing more dps then a rogue. This is a ridiculous comment and complete nonsense. A rogue vs a ranger will- - activated invisible untill it gets up close to it, therefore the ranger won't even be able to see it let alone hit it, - blinding strike, the ranger is blind, sneak attack bonus, plus high chance of crit - crippling strike, DEATHBLOWS activated, high chance of crit Ranger dead

I have wiped the floor with all the dragons on path of the dammed without any resting bonuses, food bonuses, potions or scrolls or by using any cheese tactics. I found them incredibly easy to kill. I just depends on how much you understand your capabilities and the enemies AI.

The problem with a dps paladin is that you generally can't min max your stats effectively enough to be able to punch through the damage reduction of enemies (which is about 12 on average) because for a paladin to work you need high intelligence and high resolve. Due to the this, if you are using a 1 handed weapon with a Sheild with low, might, dex, perc you will probably hit your opponents quite slowly and inaccurately for very low damage, probably about around 15 damage every hit.............a complete waste of time. So if you want to punch through the damage reduction you will have to use the 2 handed weapons, and even this will not be very effective as you will still have the low stats as described above. Now compare this to a fighter with a two handed weapon with maxed, might, dex, perception and armoured grace. There is no such thing as a dps paladin, but having said that I have really enjoyed playing them due to the versatility with there strong points ( which does not include doing damage). They genuinely are quite an interesting and fun class to play.

Now, All of us forgotten realms and baldurs gate veterans got a taste of the RAW POWER that spell triggers and contingencies gave to Mages. These abilities are a tremendous amount of fun and when they worked you actually got an adrenaline hit from sitting at your computer screen. What are people's thoughts of obsidian intruding these powers for Mages?

Wizards have the best selection and overall repertoire of spells. Concaulhaults hammer (or whatever it's called)l petrify, the stunning frost fireball spell, slicked, chill fog, haste, blights, fireball ( very fast cast speed), ........lots os stun, dominate, charm spells ............... The cipher has the most powerful spell in the game: amplified wave. The ciphers ectosychic echo, the chain reduce attack speed and the chain confusion are also extremely powerful The druid has the second most powerful spell in the game: relentless storm. The other powerful spell the druid has is the petrify claw spell. The rest of the Druids spells are quite balanced. Priests I feel are not necessary and have no over powered spells compared to the above casters

I have finished the game twice, on hard and on path of the dammed. This is by far the best game i have played since baldurs gate 2. In saying that obsidian have created something great but they had the opportunity to create something legendary and they slightly missed that mark. Areas that need work are: - better story line, the whole soul BS was a bit cheesy - more exiting talents to choose from at level up - more and more powerful magic items to gain - enchanting should be eradicated to give magic items a more " unique" and special effect - the stronghold should be a bastion of power, you should be The Lord of your lands. It is effectively a useless money sinking pit. There should be adventures tied to it other effects. - there needs to be more boss type battles - and most importantly you should be able to become the master of the universe, just like we did in bg2

Off course they are. Sword coast legends was a,disgrace

Ok let's break it down barb vs rogue, both with shod boots and remember that a rogue can min max more then a barb so con is not a dump stat for my rogue so my rogues are quite sturdy, I leave con at 8. My rogue has pergatory, resolution, dual weild, merciless hand, dungeon delver, and another item that adds another 10% crit. I have maximised perception and I have selected all the talents that involve maximising crits, sneak attacks, DEATHBLOWS, Attack sequence: - blinding strike (your are blind) + % sneak attack damage, high chance of crit possibly up to another 200% damage - crippling strike, you are now blind, crippled and DEATHBLOWS are activated, AND another high chance of crit with another 200% plus damage. - if you are not dead by now I will activate invisibility, drink a potion of major endurance and repeat the above process. Keep in mind you will be getting critter about 30-40% of the time. With a barb critting about 10- 15% of the time. There is no comparison here I would actually be far more concerned about my above mentioned rogue vs a fighter with a two handed weapon, high deflection, blunting belt, all the two handed weapon specialisations that increase damage and accuracy that only the fighters have access to, armoured grace and a highly enchanted plate armour. I think in this situation, it would come down to luck who would win, in this scenario I would probably start off with the two spell striking stilettos, jolting touch and the plague one then once they have activated I would switch to sabres. Doing this I think the rogue would win.

Ok let's break it down barb vs rogue, both with shod boots and remember that a rogue can min max more then a barb so con is not a dump stat for my rogue so my rogues are quite sturdy, I leave con at 8. My rogue has pergatory, resolution, dual weild, merciless hand, dungeon delver, and another item that adds another 10% crit. I have maximised perception and I have selected all the talents that involve maximising crits, sneak attacks, DEATHBLOWS, Attack sequence: - blinding strike (your are blind) + % sneak attack damage, high chance of crit possibly up to another 200% damage - crippling strike, you are now blind, crippled and DEATHBLOWS are activated, AND another high chance of crit with another 200% plus damage. - if you are not dead by now I will activate invisibility, drink a potion of major endurance and repeat the above process. Keep in mind you will be getting critter about 30-40% of the time. With a barb critting about 10- 15% of the time. There is no comparison here

This thread has resulted in an amazing amount of interest and attention in a short amount of time. Hundreds of replies, thousands of views, lots of meaningful discussion I would love to see a comment from an obsidian producer (perhaps sawyer) in regards to his thoughts on this topic. I am sending a note to a mod to request that sawyer makes a comment on his thoughts on the main issues discussed in this thread. I would love for sawyer to perhaps suggest his thoughts on: - will we be getting more powerful magic items in pillars of eternity 2 - will be be getting more exciting talents to choose from - will the balancing issue be approached differently, eg perhaps balancing in a. Way that doses not make combat more boring

This can be done by rogues and fighters as well obviously so it's not exclusive to barbarians and there is is still a recovery time you have just reduced it. And if you added the fighters ability armoured grace to this which is getting buffed to 20% in the next patch, you would elevate this to a whole new level.

This can be done by rogues and fighters as well obviously so it's not exclusive to barbarians and there is is still a recovery time you have just reduced it.

How do you get your barbarian to attack with no recovery time? Not possible