Kinslayer

^ that's excatly what I was going to say.

Thanks for the link but I doubt anybody responable for this incident will be properly sanctioned if there was a crime and I honestly think it was.

Mojo wanted to post an image of Chuck Noris, but there was some wierd hotlink protection that posted that goatse image.

Well I agree, but Mojo didn't do it on purpose...

It was hilarious ....especially the nazi dog thing

Mojo that's a nice pic you got there

Explanation on the 7th and 8th page in the thread Russia sells missles.....damn you Commie <_<

I have lots of time and money to spare at the moment but I guess I'm just too lazy to go all the way downtown to buy the game

No, I'm only staying here until the end of January....I'm in a completly new city and I didn't have anywhere to stay so he let me use his house....he's got 5 bedrooms and he, his wife and kid use 3.....so I'm just lazing around until I depart.

I wish I had man....the house where I'm currently staying is of a close relative of mine.

More on the latest political development regarding the Iran-Israel tensions: link Also see: 'completion of Bushehr powerplant is a priority for Russia'

Yeah if I ever desire a rougher treatment I'll be sure to visit CIA's 'hotels' in eastern europe "

HILDEGARD For any other info visit the 7th and 8th page of the Iran buys missles thread and you'll understand

I used the same two pics as I did in the thread where we posted our pics and neither of them gave any results...

If by prison you mean a brand new 3500 square feet house with all new high tech gadgets in it and a housemaid cleaning after you - where I'm currently staying in, then yeah 'prison' couldn't be better man

MORE ON TOPIC FOR THOSE INTERESTED: As we all know Moscow will sell Tor M-1 (SA-15 Gauntlet) surface-to-air missiles capable of knocking down cruise missiles and aircraft bombs to Iran, but this contract does not violate any of the Kremlin's international commitments. Several days ago, Russia and Iran signed a contract for the delivery of Tor M-1 SAM systems, a defense factory manager said. This concerns missiles that were produced on a previous Greek contract.....in all, Athens bought 21 Tor M-1 systems and had the right to purchase another 29. However, it decided to scrap this deal in the late 1990s. The Greek contract was worth $526 million, while the Iranian contract's price may exceed $700 million up to $1 billion. However in 2000, Moscow withdrew from a secret Russian-U.S. agreement, also known as the Gore-Tchernomyrdine protocol, that restricted arms deliveries to Iran. Consequently, it was believed that Iran would become the third largest importer of Russian combat hardware after China and India. But Tehran spent not more than $300-400 million on Russian weaponry because it was not sure whether Moscow could implement its military-technical policies without asking Washington's advice. The Russians are arguing that the sale of Tor M-1 missiles to Iran should be viewed as a purely commercial operation because they are tactical weapons for defense purposes and Russians explain that Iran must defend the Bushehr nuclear power plant due to be completed by Russia by 2007, because Israel has repeatedly said that it was examining a possible preventive strike against that facility. Iran is not covered by any international arms-trade sanctions, Konstantin Kosachev, chairman of the State Duma's international affairs committee, noted. In his opinion, the Russian-Iranian contract does not therefore violate any of Moscow's international commitments. Therefor instead of taking legal action, the West would react politically to this deal as many already have. *Aside the politics, the Tor-M1 is very special because it can detect and in 3.4 seconds engage any aircraft at altitude between 10m and 6km which gives him the ability to detect the low-flying cruise missles and aircraft which makes it rather impossible to sneek in undetected like the Isrealy did back in Iraq. Another thing, what demonstrates Tor's high lethality is the Russian and international testing of Tor's capabilities which proved its aircraft kill possibility ranges between 92 and 95% - and itis capable of maneuvering at loads up to 30gs. Also the missile is also effective against precision guided weapons and cruise missiles, in tests the missile demonstrated kill probability of such targets ranging from 60 to 90% which is highly admirable. One would think that using stealth planes would then be the best option, but it's not so easy as you think. If you remember when the Serbs shot the F-117 down it was primarily because its missons were ordered to use the same flight path on several consecutive missions - which the Serbs understood when they got hit and didn't have any radar contact on and on....the following time they just fired a barrage of SAMs and one picked the F-117s heat signature and nailed him.....the funny part is the missle that shot him was the acient SA-3 that was developed and deployed back in 1961...and when you compare the SA-3 and the SA-15(Tor) it's like comparing a steam locomotive to the TGV. Now the nuclear sites in Iran are the most obvious targets, together with Teheran and key industrial and military sites and they're heavily defended by Iran's AA defenses which include small numbers of Chinese SA-2s, along with SA-5 and SA-6 SAMs. Total holdings seem to include 30 Improved Hawk fire units - US missles(12 battalions/150+ launchers), 45-60 SA-2 and HQ-2J/23 (CSA-1 Chinese equivalents of the SA-2) launchers. Some sources claim that Iran might have 25 SA-6 launchers, but other sources are doubtful. There are reports of the transfer of eight SA-6 launchers to Iran from Russia in 1995/1996. In January 1996 US said had recently added Russian-built SA/6 missile defense systems. In 1997 the Iranian Air Defense forces declared the Almaz S-200 Angara (SA-5 'Gammon') low-to high-altitude surface-to-air missile (SAM) operational. The missile has a comparatively modest acceleration rate, and relies on its small wings for maneuverability. Furthermore, the mechanically steered radars used by the SA-5 are vulnerable to saturation by decoys. Sources disagree on the number deployed, with some claiming four batteries, while others claim ten. Another source reports that the Air Force had three Soviet-made long-range SA-5 units, with a total of 10-15 launchers -- enough for six sites. Make no mistake about it - it will be difficult to engage Iranian key nuclear sites and get away with it with no casulties and with the Tor in place and operational the chance of a successful outcome will most certainly decrease. Now you can argue that Tor would be ineffective defending against a Stealth attack, that it would of course be open to attack from Wild Weasels

Is this a joke? If not would you care to elaborate please. It isn't an illegal thing and I think nobody here said it was. Iran has been buying weapons from Iran for a very long time, these missle thing is nothing new or sudden because Iran was planning to buy them since the early 90's when they tryed to buy the SA-12 missle systems and fortunatly for the US/Israel they didn't manage. This business deal is perfectley legal but it does come down as a boost to tensions in the region. Make note that they're buying defensive weaponary not something that would enchance their ofensive capabilities and any country in the world has a right to improve their defenses if they see neccessary so does Iran. I strongly disagree with this statment for reasons I already stated in my previous posts in this thread, especially on Tor M1, Iran has been buying weapons from Russia since the revolution and the US or Israel didn't object much to it. But with this deal, the US and Israel strongly condemned the purchase because these aren't just another 'Russian toy', it's the state of the art SAM system and that's the main reason why all the comotion around this thing started in the first place. The Iranians will most probably next seek to buy the latest Igla-S MANPADs from the Russians and the Tors and Iglas may be transferred in a matter of months unlike the powerful and expensive S-300PMU1/2.....furthermore the fulfillment of the Greek and Chinese contracts by Antey Concern and the Indian contract by Kolomna Machine-Building Design Bureau prove that Iran's purchase of powerful anti-ship missiles that would threaten the U.S. naval group in the Persian Gulf and seafaring in the Strait of Hormuz would be a strong military-technical response. And if you ask yourselves if Iran can afford such purchases do note that the Iranian defense budgit is $9.7 billion per year and for example Israel's is $8.97 billion (plus the yearly $2 billion financial/equipment aid for defense spending from the US).

Um...like? What I've read, you have (at most) a year before Iran has nukes. At that point, the "fluffy happy ending" doesn't even exist. At that point, things change. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not neccessarily....if Iran aquire nukes it doesn't mean they'll fire them the next minute or let's say give them to Hamas. Sure, there will be a nuclear standoff in the ME, but there doesn't have to be a nuclear war - status quo. Israel views a 'nuclear Iran' as unacceptable, I can understand that, but if they start a war with an airstrike against Iran then they're to blame as much as Iran who has been pursuing a nuclear weapon for a long time now. But when I look at it from the Iranian side, if my worse enemy has such weapons and they do, I would as hell want them too. Israel never signed any non-nuclear prolification document of the UN, neither has Iran. Israel pursued further developing nukes and got away with any significant condemnation/action from the international community....and now when Iran does the same/similar thing there is a widespread threats of serious embargoes and even military action. I mean no ofence but it seems a bit hypocritical to me as we know that Israel in the past has been warmongering as much as its Arab neighbours, justified or not. What I understand where the biggest fear of a 'nuclear Iran' comes from - it's the alleged connection of terrorist organizations to Iran, like Hamas ( - to some a terrorist organization, to others freedom fighters) aquiring nuclear weapons through Iran.....but I don't think that theory stands so much. I mean even the radicalism of the Iranian regime doesn't cloud their judgement so much they would risk everything - their country, their people....just to do so, it's ludocrious - even for the Iranians. Sure their leader called for Israel to be wiped of the map - it's unacceptable and I would take it into notion, but I wouldn't take it so seriously as some do because the Iranians know if they destroy/nuke Israel they'll be dead aswell. I just don't think they would sacrife it all for that cause, it's clear there are many wanna be suicide bombers in Iran I just don't think it will be the whole country of Iran. Did.....did he just try and win an arguement with Hope and Love? **** it, we're all screwed. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You don't need to be so hostile, I meant no disrespect or anything like that and I'm not trying to 'win' anything here. I was just saying that, although the current situation gives little room for optimism, there is no need to cancel any possible chance for a diplomatic solution no matter how small it seems. Sure it doesn't look good I agree with you, but never should our spirits yield in the quest for a peaceful outcome, no matter how distant that hope or dream appears to be.

I refuse to pick any of them as I firmly believe there are many other possible outcomes/solutions that are much brighter for the people of the Middle East. And BTW your objectivity seems to be clouded by your pessimism which isn't so realistic as you may think and it shouldn't be anbodies point of view who'll have an impact on the future of the ME because quite frankly I've never met or heard in my life of a pessimist who has achieved a significant goal in life and I can't name one person in history who really made a difference for the humankind in a positive way and been a pessimist.....hope.....there's always hope....tomorrow is a whole new day Cheer up ...gotta run...

Please don't.

Wars? No. Israel taking care of buisness? As I said, that might fly <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If you read my ever-long post you'll understand how it just isn't possible for any future Israely strike to be fully independent from the US.

But what would they achieve if they launched a preemptive strike? Iran learned the lesson with the Iraqi nuclear facilities being bombed by putting all their key facilities deep under ground aside from some industrial used in their nuclear program. By destroying those sites in the open you would just postpone for a while their development of nuclear weapons, if they're developing them in the first place? And if you do bomb them and they weren't developing them, then they would most certainly do so which leaves diplomacy as the only way of preventing a 'nuclear Iran'...but many wouldn't agree with that point like Israel of course, they view this situation like this (from a military standpoint): The Israeli Air Force received the first two of 25 F-15I Ra

Aside from your wild conspiracy theories....... Back on topic: When I heard about this thing with Russia and Iran I thought it was just another of Russia's out of date crap missles from the Soviet age being purchased by the obviously intimidated Iran....Tor - M1 didn't ring my bell, but when I saw the standard NATO designation - the SA-15 GAUNTLET....I was like WTF?! (w00t) I remember the talk about the SA-12 missle system, but this is big, more then people think because when I looked up the specs of these missle systems it scared the **** out me and it should scare the USAF and the Israely airforce. The Tor - M1 aka the SA-15 GAUNTLET : The principal advantages of Tor-M1 is its ability to simultaneously destroy two targets in any weather or at any time of day and night; the use of both the powerful and jamming-resistant radar with electronic beam control and vertically launched missiles able to maintain high speed and manoeuvrability inside an entire engagement envelope; the high degree of automation of combat operation provided by the electronic equipment suite. Tor detects targets at a distance of 25 kilometers and kills them at a distance of 12 kilometers. In combating manned aviation, Tor is thrice and 1.5 times more efficient than foreign systems of the same class - France's Crotale and Britain's Rapier, respectively. Although it is an autonomous system it can be interfaced into an integrated air defense network. SA-15b is designed to be a completely autonomous air defense system (at division level), capable of surveillance, command and control, missile launch and guidance functions from a single vehicle. The basic combat formation is the firing battery consisting of four TLARs and the Rangir battery command post. The TLAR carries eight ready missiles stored in two containers holding four missiles each The single stage solid propellant missile has a maximum speed of 850 m/s and is fitted with a 15 kg HE-fragmentation warhead detonated by a proximity fusing system. The missile is approximately 3.5 meters long with a diameter of 0.735 meters and a launch weight 170 kilograms. The cold launch ejection system propels the missile upwards to a height of 18-20 meters, whereupon thruster jets ignite and turn the weapon to the target bearing. The main sustainer rocket motor then ignites and the missile is command guided to the intercept point where the proximity fuse is triggered. The Tor is not amphibious although it is airportable. An NBC system is fitted as standard as is a built-in training system. The chassis of the vehicle is almost identical to that used for the 2S6 self-propelled hybrid air defense system and is based on the GM-569 tracked vehicle. The Russian company Antei which produces anti-aircraft missile systems has developed a new efficient system Tor M1. A number of countries have precision weapons and a reliable shield is necessary against these weapons. The new Russian anti-aircraft missile system Tor is such a shield. The system consists of a special vehicle and two radars to detect targets and to accompany flying targets and missiles, a computer, and equipment for launch and navigation. The missile unit is a transportation and launch container with four missiles. A anti-aircraft guided missile is a one-stage missile with a solid fuel engine. The system is operated by 3 or 4 people. The Tor system ensures reliable protection for government, industrial and military sites and ground troops from all types of missiles, unpiloted aircraft, aircraft bombs, aircraft and helicopters with stealth capabilities. The Tor system is the only system in the world which can detect and identify various targets. It can detect targets at a height ranging from 10 meters to 6 kilometers. The Tor system is autonomous and has short reaction time. The latest technologies of Russia's defense industry are used in it. Although the high altitude bombers are relatively safe from this missle systems because the SA-15 is low-to-medium altitude SAM system, but other conventional aircraft would be in an serious danger in an actual war with Iran. The US and Israel can protest all they want, but hey if I was the Iranian leader I would do the same thing considering the circumstances in the region and beyond.