Guard Dog

Which brings to mind the 16 names in Clinton's list who were connected to Whitewater, and could have testified against the him had they not been pardoned first. How does the corruption of Bush/Clinton/Nixon compare to each other? Just different varieties of rats.

There is no defense, I'm just pointing out hypocrisy. Sand and Pop say they hate Republicans for their corruption but have no problems with corruption from democrats. I don't think Libby deserved a pardon either.

During his 7 years in office Geroge W Bush has issues 0 pardon and comuted the prison penalty from 1 perjury conviction During his 8 years in office, Bill Clinton issued free and clear pardons to the following people: ALLEN, Verla Jean: False statements to agency of United States ALTIERE, Nicholas M: Importation of cocaine ALTSCHUL, Bernice Ruth : Conspiracy to commit money laundering ANDERSON, Joe, Jr.: Income tax evasion ANDERSON, William Sterling Conspiracy to defraud a federally insured financial institution, false statements to a federally insured financial institution, wire fraud AZIZKHANI, Mansour T. Conspiracy and making false statements in bank loan applications BABIN, Cleveland Victor, Jr. Conspiracy to commit offense against the United States by utilizing the U.S. mail in furtherance of a scheme to defraud BAGLEY, Chris Harmon Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute cocaine BANE, Scott Lynn Unlawful distribution of marijuana BARBER, Thomas Issuing worthless checks BARGON, Peggy Ann Violation of the Lacey Act, violation of the Bald Eagle Protection Act BHATKA, Tansukhlal Income tax evasion BLAMPIED, David Roscoe Conspiracy to distribute cocaine BORDERS, William Arthur, Jr. Conspiracy to corruptly solicit and accept money in return for influencing the official acts of a federal district court judge (Alcee L. Hastings), and to defraud the United States in connection with the performance of lawful government functions; corruptly influencing, obstructing, impeding and endeavoring to influence, obstruct and impede the due administration of justice, and aiding and abetting therein; traveling interstate with intent to commit bribery BOREL, Arthur David Odometer rollback BOREL, Douglas Charles Odometer rollback BRABHAM, George Thomas Making a false statement or report to a federally insured bank BRASWELL, Almon Glenn Conspiracy to defraud government with respect to claims; perjury BROWDER, Leonard Illegal dispensing of controlled substance and Medicaid fraud BROWN, David Steven Securities fraud and mail fraud BURLESON, Delores Caroylene, Possession of marijuana BUSTAMANTE, John H. Wire fraud CAMPBELL, Mary Louise Aiding and abetting the unauthorized use and transfer of food stamps CANDELARIA, Eloida False information in registering to vote CAPILI, Dennis Sobrevinas Filing false statements in alien registration CHAMBERS, Donna Denise Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute and to distribute cocaine, possession with intent to distribute cocaine, use of a telephone to facilitate cocaine conspiracy CHAPMAN, Douglas Eugene Bank fraud CHAPMAN, Ronald Keith Bank fraud CHAVEZ, Francisco Larios Aiding and abetting illegal entry of aliens COOPER, David Marc: Conspiracy to defraud the government COX, Ernest Harley, Jr. Conspiracy to defraud a federally insured savings and loan, misapplication of bank funds, false statements CROSS, John F., Jr. Embezzlement by a bank employee CUNNINGHAM, Rickey Lee Possession with intent to distribute marijuana DE LABIO, Richard Anthony Mail fraud, aiding and abetting DOWNE, Edward Reynolds Conspiracy to commit wire fraud and tax evasion; securities fraud DUDLEY, Marvin Dean False statements DUNCAN, Larry Lee Altering an automobile odometer FAIN, Robert Clinton Aiding and assisting in the preparation of a false corporate tax return FERNANDEZ, Marcos Arcenio Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute marijuana FERROUILLET, Alvarez Interstate transport of stolen property, money laundering, false statements FUGAZY, William Denis Harrison, New York Perjury in a bankruptcy proceeding GEORGE, Lloyd Reid Mail fraud GOLDSTEIN, Louis Possession of goods stolen from interstate shipment GORDON, Rubye Lee Forgery of U.S. Treasury checks HAMNER, Robert Ivey Conspiracy to distribute marijuana, possession of marijuana with intent to distribute HANDLEY, Samuel Price Conspiracy to steal government property HANDLEY, Woodie Randolph Conspiracy to steal government property HARMON, Jay Houston 1. Conspiracy to import marijuana, conspiracy to possess marijuana with intent to distribute, importation of marijuana, possession of marijuana with intent to distribute 2. Conspiracy to import cocaine HEMMINGSON, John Interstate transport of stolen property, money laundering HERDLINGER, David S. Mail fraud HUCKLEBERRY, Debi RaeDistribution of methamphetamine JAMES, Donald Ray Mail fraud, wire fraud, and false statement to a bank to influence credit approval JOBE, Stanley Pruet Conspiracy to commit bank fraud, and bank fraud JOHNSON, Ruben H. Theft and misapplication of bank funds by a bank officer or director JONES, Linda Conspiracy to commit bank fraud and other offenses against the United States LAKE, James Howard Illegal corporate campaign contributions, wire fraud LEWIS, June Louise Embezzlement by a bank employee LEWIS, Salim Bonnor Securities fraud, record keeping violations, margin violations LODWICK, John Leighton Income tax evasion LOPEZ, Hildebrando Distribution of cocaine LUACES, Jose Julio Possession of an unregistered firearm MANESS, James Timothy Conspiracy to distribute a controlled substance MANNING, James Lowell Aiding and assisting in the preparation of a false corporate tax return MARTIN, John Robert Income tax evasion MARTINEZ, Frank Ayala Conspiracy to supply false documents to the Immigration and Naturalization Service MARTINEZ, Silvia Leticia Beltran Conspiracy to supply false documents to the Immigration and Naturalization Service McCORMICK, John Francis Racketeering conspiracy, racketeering, and violation of the Hobbs act McDOUGAL, Susan H. Securities fraud, money laundering, real estate fraud MITCHELL, Brook K., Sr. Conspiracy to illegally obtain USDA subsidy payments, false statements to USDA, and false entries on USDA forms MORGAN, Charles Wilfred, III Conspiracy to distribute cocaine MORISON, Samuel Loring Willful transmission of defense information, unauthorized possession and retention of defense information, theft of government property NAZZARO, Richard Anthony Perjury and conspiracy to commit mail fraud NOSENKO, Charlene Ann Conspiracy to defraud the United States, and influencing or injuring an officer or juror generally OBERMEIER, Vernon Raymond Conspiracy to distribute cocaine, distribution of cocaine, and using a communications facility to facilitate distribution of cocaine OGALDE, Miguelina Conspiracy to import cocaine OWEN, David C. Filing a false tax return PALMER, Robert W Conspiracy to make false statements PERHOSKY, Kelli Anne Conspiracy to commit mail fraud PEZZOPANE, Richard H. Conspiracy to commit racketeering, and mail fraud PHILLIPS, Orville Rex Unlawful structure of a financial transaction POLING, Vinson Stewart, Jr. Making a false bank entry, and aiding and abetting PROUSE, Norman Lyle Operating or directing the operation of a common carrier while under the influence of alcohol PRUITT, Willie H. H., Jr. Absent without official leave PURSLEY, Danny Martin, Sr. Aiding and abetting the conduct of an illegal gambling business, and obstruction of state laws to facilitate illegal gambling RAVENEL, Charles D. Conspiracy to defraud the United States RAY, William Clyde Fraud using a telephone REGALADO, Alfredo Failure to report the transportation of currency in excess of $10,000 into the United States RICAFORT, Ildefonso Reynes Submission of false claims to Veterans Administration RICH, Marc Switzerland fled prosecution for secruities fraud RIDDLE, Howard Winfield Violation of the Lacey Act (receipt of illegally imported animal skins) RILEY, Richard Wilson, Jr. Possession of cocaine with intent to distribute ROBBINS, Samuel Lee Misprision of a felony RODRIGUEZ, Joel Gonzales Theft of mail by a postal employee ROGERS, Michael James Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute marijuana ROSS, Anna Louise Distribution of cocaine RUST, Gerald Glen False declarations before grand jury RUST, Jerri Ann False declarations before grand jury RUTHERFORD, Bettye June Possession of marijuana with intent to distribute SANDS, Gregory Lee Conspiracy to distribute cocaine SCHWIMMER, Adolph Conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, conspiracy to export arms and ammunition to a foreign country and related charges SERETTI, Albert A., Jr. Conspiracy and wire fraud SHAW, Patricia Campbell Hearst Armed bank robbery and using a firearm during a felony SMITH, Gerald Owen Armed bank robbery SPEAKE, Jimmie Lee Conspiracy to possess and utter counterfeit $20 Federal Reserve notes STEWART, Charles Bernard Illegally destroying U.S. Mail STEWART-ROLLINS, Marlena Francisca Conspiracy to distribute cocaine TANNEHILL, Richard Lee Conspiracy and restraint of trade TENAGLIA, Nicholas C. Receipt of illegal payments under the Medicare program THOMAS, Gary Allen Theft of mail by postal employee TODD, Larry Weldon Conspiracy to commit an offense against the U.S. in violation of the Lacey Act and the Airborne Hunting Act TREVINO, Olga C. Misapplication by a bank employee VAMVOUKLIS, Ignatious Possession of cocaine VAN DE WEERD, Patricia A Theft by a U.S. Postal employee WARMATH, Bill Wayne Obstruction of correspondence WATSON, Jack Kenneth Making false statements of material facts to the U.S. Forest Service WEBB, Donna Lynn False entry in savings and loan record by employee WELLS, Donald William Possession of an unregistered firearm WENDT, Robert H. Conspiracy to effectuate the escape of a federal prisoner WILLIAMS, Jack L. Making false statements to federal agents WILLIAMS, Kevin Arthur Conspiracy to distribute and possess with intent to distribute crack cocaine WILLIAMS, Robert Michael Conspiracy to transport in foreign commerce securities obtained by fraud WILSON, Jimmie Lee Converting property mortgaged or pledged to a farm credit agency, and converting public money to personal use WINGATE, Thelma Louise Mail fraud WOOD, Mitchell Couey Conspiracy to possess and to distribute cocaine WOOD, Warren Stannard Conspiracy to defraud the United States by filing a false document with the Securities and Exchange Commission WORTHEY, Dewey Medicaid fraud YALE, Rick Allen Bank fraud YASAK, Joseph A. Knowingly making under oath a false declaration regarding a material fact before a grand jury YINGLING, William Stanley Interstate transportation of stolen vehicle YOUNG, Phillip David Interstate transportation and sale of fish and wildlife But, you know Pop, I'd just bet you have no problem at all when it's a Democrat screwing the law.

The last Sci-Fi book I read that I liked (there have been many I hated) was Old Man's War by John Scalzi. I'm not a big fan of his work in general but he did a good job on this one. Well worth the 6 bucks to buy and a weekend or two to read.

Dania Florida is a little oceanside suburb of Ft. Lauderdale. We call it Little Quebec because every year from November to April is population triples from the Canadian snowbirds . There are many, many, and more trailer parks (nice ones not Jerry Springer ones) that are shuttered and empty during the summer but are bustling with pasty white skinned folks with French accents during the winter. Anyway, they are nice enough folks but traffic congestion rises so dramatically in South Broward County you cannot even drive from here to there without getting into a traffic jam. Because these folks drive s....l...o...w....! I blame Canada when I'm late to work in the winter! So, do I win the prize?

Things I love about Canada: 1)Molson Canadian (mmmmm good stuff) 2)The Toronto Maple Leafs (sorry Habs but you are NOT Canada's team) 3)Bioware (nuff said) 4)Molson Canadian 5)It's where Labardor Retirevers came from (Canada's best export next to Molson Canadian) 6)They are the butt of every South Park joke and take it with good grace (Blame Canada, Blame Canada) 7)Shania Twain 8)Molson Canadian (So much better than anything from Labatts)

Has anyone read Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke? If so can you give an idea if it is any good or at least worth the time it would take to read it? And passing up reading other things in the meantime?

EEEWWWWW Anyway, I've said all I can say on this subject. Teeth, Taks, Tale, Sand, Wals, Gorgon, and all the rest, it was an enjoyable debate as always.

The "I know it when I see it" line wasn't Scalia. It was Potter Stewart, in his concurrence to Jacobellis v. Ohio, in 1964. I stand corrected.

To quote that great American, Antonin Scalia "I cannot define it but I know it when I see it".

Except the Federal Government does not fund the schools. The individual states do. None of your Federal Income Tax goes to education. A good chunk of you State Income/Property/Sales Tax does. The US department of Education does set minimum standards for what must be taught in each grade level, what standardized testing to use, etc. This is so that if a high school student were to move from one state to another their education level would be commesurate with their new classmates. The Federal Government is allowed to do this (obliquely) in the Constitution under the "Full Faith and Credit Clause" (Article IV Section I). As a side note, that same clause is what will eventually get Gay Marriage legalized throughout the Country I think. @Calax that kind of Constitutional sabre rattling does go on now (as Taks pointed out) and it is a de jure violation of the framers intent. Something else for you guys to consider. Suppose tomorrow Uncle Sam did roll out a national health policy that literally does what Hillary Care would have. That is seize (for State/Public owned) or buy (for privately owned) and nationalize hospitals and medical practices, make their employees into Federal employees. First off the full cost of everything must be borne by the taxpayer. That means to cost of the actual acquisition. Then new contracts with drug companies/medical supply companies/ etc will need to be negotiated. Then the is the actual cost of creating a new bueracracy to manage it all, the Unions of those Unionized medical employees will sue, the owners of practices who will not sell will sue, the insurance companies will sue, there will be hundreds of constitutional challanges all over the country that will end up in court. Until ALL of that crap is settles the Federal Government will be unable to provide even a band aid to anyone but whatever new taxes are needed to fund it all will still need to be paid. And on top of that you have the same health system you do now until it's settled. There will be at least one election cycle before all of that is settled and who ever is in power will be thrown out and if the new administration had a brain thay would pull the plug on the whole thing. That is a grim but realistic scenario. Sound like something you want?

Then we change the Constitution. But then you would have to move. Popular thinking would put Iowa in the South-Midwest bloc in post break up america. How could you ever leave Iowa behind.

Individual State run health care. As I posted earlier. If the State of Washington desides to subsidize health care for it's citizens, then I applaud them for it. I'm not opposed to government run health care. I AM opposed to FEDERAL Government run health care. @Calax, you are correct. The words "health care" do not appear in the Constitution. Therefore the 10th Amendment forbids the Federal Government from involving itself in it. At the same time it empowers the State Governments to pursue it if their voters approve.

Con: The Constitution does not allow the Federal government to do it. It's just that simple.

I remember a story from around 1993 near Cedar Key FL. The big thing for smugglers back then was flying marijuana in from Mexico in small planes and just kicking out the plastic wrapped bales over empty streches of swamp to be picked up later. Anyway, a couple of "good ole boys" are out hunting, see the drop and call police. The sheriff comes out and picks up three big bales of mary jane. They arrested the pilot and seized the plane but it turned out there were four bales on the plane. the last one was nowhere to be found. I guess those two rednecks considered it a finder's fee.

Teeth, I'm getting whiplash here. You want a smaller government, but you want it to run health care? Sand said the same thing. That is a contradiction. Anyway, the attorney General has ALWAYS been a part of the President's cabinet. The President has ALWAYS recommended Supreme Court judges. The Constitution charges him to do so with the advice and consent of the Senate. That is why we have a confirmation process. I wanted to vomit when Clinton nominated an ACLU lawyer to the SCOTUS but I know he had every right to pick who he wanted. Not sure what you beef is here.

We had a great thread over on libertypost.org a few years ago about that very subject. Everyone agreed if we did that the country would break up into 3-4 pieces because it is so culturally disparate now. I tend to believe it would be four new countries that emerge from that. Maryland to Illinois and all of New England would be one, Washington and Oregon would be another. California, parts of Arizona and New Mexico would be a third, the South, Midwest and the Rocky Mountain states would be the fourth. There is no way in the world you would get all 50 states to ratify the same Constitution now. What New York will want, Kansas will not. I'd rather we did not do that, and you would be crazy to think we would be better off if that actually did happen.

And that sums it up well. Either be socialist or don't. If you try to be both all you get is a bloody mess. The US does not practice planned economics in any other endeavor, it makes no sense to do it here.

Just to expand on Taks answer, which is dead on the money correct. The US is different than Europe in a number of ways when it comes to civics structure. In Europe it is much harder to differentiate between national and local governments because in most countries the local government is a branch of the national government. The US has distinct layers of government that are nearly independent of each other. If you take a constructionist view of the constitution (as people like myself do) it really is a union of 50 sovereign and independent States. Now in reality it does not work that way but the responsibilities of each layer are strictly defined and regimented in the constitution. This may sound like semantics but it really is a big deal. This very relationship between state and federal governments was the underlying cause for the American Civil War. Anyway, the part of the Constitution that matters here is the 10th Amendment, which states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved for the States respectively, or to the people.". You have already heard it said without argument that the Constitution forbids the Federal Government from involving itself in health care, or schools, public utilites, stuff like that. The 10th Amendment charges that what the Federal cannot do the States are free to pursue. In fact, the State of Washington has been working on a plan for subsidized medical care for several years. It would not surprise me if it were to appear on a ballot one of these days, and then we'll see what happens. I'm not opposed to the idea per se, but I an VERY opposed to those who want the Federal government to wave it's magic wand and do it for everyone.

Unfortunately, I'd have to agree with your take on that on Tale. Well put. It is sad but true.

I'm a Christian and to that I'd say "I'll voluntarily help pay someone's medical bill from my own pocket. Not demand the Federal Government take money away from someone else to pay MY medical bill." But that is just me.

Okay, first off law enforcement has always held the right to detain without arrest warrant for 24(?) hours. That has not changed. But if you are referring to the Jose Padilla case, that was correctly struck down by the 4th Distinct Appellate Court and Mr. Padilla is on trial. As to the wiretapping and electronic surveillance, section 505 (which provides for wiretaps etc.) of the Patriot Act was stuck down in late 2004 or early 2005 and was amended by Congress in 2005 to conform to the courts ruling. As to the other issues people have been screaming about, the FBI is collecting phone numbers in overseas calls. What number called what number. They are not listening in on the calls. This is perfectly legal. So while I will agree attempts were made to abrogate civil rights, the system performed as it should and no one's rights are being violated. Unless you have examples I'm missing? No kidding there. Everyone is in a snit over perceived but not actual rights violations in the US. In China if you are in the Falon Gong(sp?) you get a bullet in the head and no one here says a word.

couldn't the same be said about anyone who's left wing? people are not 'indoctrinated' because they don't agree with you - they may just have a fundamentally different view of things - although I know the feeling, when you know something to be 'right' and everyone disagrees Fair point Ros. That was a poor choice of wording. "Enamored" would probably be better.

Did you not read the examples I posted? Anyway, you cannot really say free market medicine does not work because you have not seen it applied in the modern era. What we have now could not be called free market by any means. Anyway, this has been an enjoyable thread but there is little more I can say without becoming repetitive (or more so). As I posted earlier, most of you are leaning more to wards socialism and are so indoctrinated to the idea you refuse to even consider an alternative. Even when confronted with the realities of creating such a system in the US. And thats fine, not everybody agrees on everything. It is not the Federal Governments job to provide you with health care, but many of you feel it is and damn the problems and costs that arise from it. I'm certain it will come up again, possible after the next election cycle if the dems win the white house. Hopefully it will be defeated again.

Not at all. We are talking about the FEDERAL Government here. The US Constitution spells out exactly what the role of the FEDERAL Government is. It places limits on it's scope and power. And it angers and frightens me when it over steps those limits with seeming impunity. And even worse when I hear intelligent people like you actually demanding that it overstep it's power to do something the Constitution expressly forbids it to do. If the Federal Government is not held to the Constitution then there is no law and none of us are safe from it. If a STATE Government wanted to provide health care for it's citizens then I would have no problem at all with it. But the words "health care" do not appear in the US Constitution I believe the human condition can and will get better. But you seem to think that can only happen at the aid and direction of government. I disagree. Most of the examples you name are things that are bought, built and administrated by State and Municipal governments. Libraries, Universities, schools, most parks, etc are built funded and run with NO Federal money or oversight. There are some things the Federal Government does do well. Most of them are responsibilities that Constitution specifically defines for them such as trade administration, National Defense and security, administration and management of natural resources, etc. Actually here is a little personal info on me. When I got out of the military I got into politics. First in the Florida Republican Party, then the Libertarian Party. I was a campaign adviser for Don Garlits in his Congressional campaign for US House district 5 in 1994. Then I actually ran for the Florida State House in 1996 (that did not go so well). So I can tell you for a FACT it is detached from the average citizen. To such a point it will really make you angry if you dwell on it. I went back to college after the debacle in 1996 and got a real job.