Panteleimon

Let him throw that sh*t back at the one who threw it at him, not at someone who made no offense. Funny coming from someone so fond of speaking in the collective "we" when stating his opinions.

That's really rich coming from you. All this time I thought "retarded" was one of your favorite pejoratives.

Planet Retardia was the creation of one of your homeboys on the last page, not Gromnir, actually. You couldn't resist a chance to take a dig, though, could you?

Almost the exact opposite happened in the last thread.. the votes were heavily biased in favor of combat xp last I checked.. and althought objective based xp wasn't far behind.. almost NOBODY wanted the current system.. The first person to say polls are inherently flawed was me and it had nothing to do with the results.. it was me recognizing that even if Combat XP was the winning selection, I don't expect obsidian to make a change based on a forum poll.. only register people aren't happy with the current direction. Way to misquote and skew reality to fit your imaginary world. I don't remember quoting anything. I remember reading posts that communicate anger and predicting a furious backlash against Obsidian for failing to heed the ~clear majority~ who want combat XP. Then I remember reading posts stating that obviously this poll indicates absolutely nothing and the ~clear majority~ are simply either silent or have left for greener pastures. But since you mentioned it... Oh, this poll? "Now that you have had a taste of it, what do you think of no kill xp?" Results as follows: I love this system and I am glad the game went in this direction. (88 votes [30.77%]) I slightly prefer this system. (45 votes [15.73%]) I think it makes little difference. (23 votes [8.04%]) I dislike this system somewhat. (58 votes [20.28%]) I hate this system and think it makes combat less rewarding. (72 votes [25.17%]) Let me make this really easy on you, wouldn't want to bring back any bad memories from your time in 3rd grade: I love this system and I am glad the game went in this direction. (88 votes [30.77%]) I slightly prefer this system. (45 votes [15.73%]) The big number and the little number make 133 I dislike this system somewhat. (58 votes [20.28%]) I hate this system and think it makes combat less rewarding. (72 votes [25.17%]) The big number and the little number make 130 Gee, sounds like you were really talking out of your backside there, doesn't it? What was that about an imaginary world, skewing reality, heavy bias in favor of combat XP and zero support for the current system? The only thing I agree with is that this poll will change absolutely nothing.

Yep, a lot of people have left, during the Kickstarter even. They could smell the foulness of these decisions miles away. I wish my RPG sniffer was as good as theirs. (To my defense, I wasn't following the Kickstarter as closely as I should have) Good thing for you that you're not out any money, then. Unless I'm mistaken? If everything we vote on or write is so meaningless, then why are you even here on the forum? I believe he's speaking to ~Le XP Debate~ specifically. Ihr krieg ist vorbei, ok?

I love how when there's a debate thread, it's "Obsidian is ignoring the screaming majority that want combat XP! Look at everyone saying they want it!". As soon as there's a poll that goes against combat XP it's "Obviously polls aren't representative at all and just a bunch of garbage!". Not that it matters anyway, which makes this kind of silly ~Vox Populi~ circus even funnier.

This is the primary variable here, I believe. It's like digging the Panama Canal(or any works project). It might take a year longer than projected, planned and budgeted to make it as wide and the locks as deep as would be ideal, but who's paying? Regardless, I'm confident they have their ducks in a row. They've entirely redone their pathfinding system in a very short amount of time(it's waiting for deployment, I believe), so that's a moot point. The scale is, beyond a certain point, a done deal, I believe(given the number of variables that would have to be shifted to change it significantly), so that falls into something you don't like rather than a bug. Things like tweaking movement speed, weapon/spell damage, VO, abilities, attribute values, encounter placement and composition, UI tweaks and fixing all the bugs that you deliberately ignore over the course of development(you do know they save that for the end, right?) are some of the easiest changes to make relative to the rest of the project, and that's why they're left for last. Every area that's going to be in the game is already in the game, and has been for some time now(this has been directly confirmed). This is not a time in the development cycle where they're still adding that kind of content. Infinitron is on the money about the "state" of the beta. It's an honest-to-God BETA, not an early access. This is a side of the game that only the developers typically see, and I think that's caused a lot of anxiety among the consumers. But they're a relatively large, very professional studio that has planned and budgeted for a certain release window and I think it's silly to think they'll have either the money or the inclination to significantly deviate from that unless they hit one hell of a pothole. Companies can't just significantly overshoot release targets because they don't have a publisher breathing down their neck(though in this case, they surely must have some obligation to Paradox to hit their mark so Paradox can hit theirs).

No, it isn't. At least not all games, or this game. Yes it is. Ego stroking is a stated design goal of this game. Mentioned by the devs in one of the updates in fact https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/317536 Avellone sums it up at @3:40 of the video if you don't feel like reading. And nothing he's saying is unique. People don't play games for the purpose of being put down and belittled. Yeah, not the first time I've seen that video. He's speaking to the literary purpose of companion characters within the game, not the game and it's created world at large. I thought that was obvious, no? The video is called "Characterization with Chris Avellone"(as it relates to companion characters), not "Pillars of Eternity as a Whole Will Seek to Constantly Stroke Your Ego" for goodness sake. Get real. Simply because the game doesn't constantly fall over itself making you feel "suppa speshul" doesn't mean it denigrates and belittles you(though hey, guess what? well written characters within the game might do that, just like they would in reality!) . It just means that it may be attempting to be more than some kind of shallow power fantasy fulfillment. Maybe, I dunno, have some intellectual or literary worth? Maybe even have the pats on the back feel believable and deserved, rather than childish and hollow?

Fascinating, you have won me over with your argument, how could I have been so ignorant all this time. I have seen the light thanks to you and you great post. If you view the entire medium of video games solely as a vehicle for ego-stroking, then your standard of thoughtful, intelligent content must be very low(because the best stories emulate life in some fashion, and life does not seek to constantly congratulate you) . Thankfully for you, the lion's share of game studios(and film studios) are creating products with your ego in mind.

No, it isn't. At least not all games, or this game. No, of course not. It just shows the ridiculousness of requesting a system that is independent of playstyle. As, technically, leaving the game running while you sleep actually constitutes a playstyle as well, which, by gromnirs demand, may not be disadvantaged. That's a pretty disingenuous argument. A "playstyle" has to involve actively playing the game. You're trying to make a point, but that isn't the way to do it.

Actually, i gave you your desire pages ago. Grant XP for time passed, which is both easy to implement, simple and straightforward, and completely independent of any playstyle because it has no connection whatsoever to what the player does. Which is the only way to grant XP independent of playstyle at all. Wait, what? So I can leave my game running when I sleep or go to work and I can get XP? You can't actually be suggesting that as a viable system for granting XP. This game isn't turn-based, and even if it was there's no guarantee that time is being spent in any meaningful way(i.e. not picking your nose) . Additionally, simply because there are ways to powergame a system to pieces doesn't mean that it needs to be designed with that explicitly in mind, a la Diablo.

Where was it advertised that PoE would be a D&D game? I think the maximum extent of what was said was it would have exploration that evokes Baldur's Gate and combat that evokes Icewind Dale, along with themes and writing that evoke Planescape: Torment. Nowhere in there does it say that it will directly copy/emulate any or all systems from those games. I do find it strange that much of the loudest teeth-knashing is coming from people that didn't back the kickstarter, haven't backed the game and haven't played the beta. At least if those little forum icons are anything to go by. Unless those aren't accurate.

When you figure out that you can't get to the end of that quest/map, without resting more times then you have supplies, thus needing to go back to buy more and having nothing to show for all that, I'm sure you will. Have you actually played the beta? Even while making relatively balanced use of supplies on Hard with Expert Mode enabled I never ran totally dry on supplies. I just had to actually think about what I was doing and if it was worth heading back to the inn to regroup and refit. Exploring an entire spider-infested cave system doesn't have to happen in a day.

...is something none of us knows yet. Not even the developers know. Josh Sawyer came to these boards just yesterday to remind us in several various ways, that PoE is still a work in progress and stuff like setting Numerical values to things (like XP rewards for successful use of the Athletics skill) is so very much something that is not yet set in stone. I believe one of the developers communicated subtly to Indiralightfoot that as far as any change from quest XP is concerned, "anything you want to mod in you definitely should", AKA it's not happening. Regardless, the game is feature complete(beta) and they simply are not going to change entire systems at this point(we aren't simply talking tweaking numbers like with attributes), regardless of how badly you'd like them to. If you'd like to continue to wring your hands and rage over the issue in vain, then you can certainly do so.

Ahahahaha

Have you actually looked at the current attribute system? PoE allows for fighters who are intelligent instead of strong. And it works quite well, except for one small problem: The values have to be tweaked a bit. Also nobody's saying that the intelligent fighter should be as good as the strong one in every circumstance. It might be that, all in all, he's not as good a build. Nobody (who you should care about) wants perfect balance. But if I can actually roleplay as an intelligent leader instead of a dumb brute while still being quite good in combat situations, then that's enough reason to play this build. The point he is making: 1/ there should not be viable intelligent Fighter build (who is weak in STR, CON, DEX). 2/ There should be viable melee INT build, but in different class (BattleMage or Paladin who has spells (powered by INT) which benefit his melee focus). The very idea that class does not have bad builds is the problem. The goal that Josh is trying to achieve so badly. I really shouldn't let you get my goat like this. Why don't you go ahead and take a few minutes and watch this: You win some, you lose some. The IDEA is that all stats do SOMETHING for all classes. It's about the attributes in relation to the classes. If I want to take advantage of the benefits a higher intellect(not intelligence, but that's another story) offers my Paladin, I have to accept that will inevitably cause me shortfalls in other attributes( like Might, Constitution or Dexterity) . In BG I had absolutely zero reason NOT to dump Intelligence and Wisdom(or Charisma for a non-PC character) for my Paladin so I could, by the definitions of the stats in BG, turn my Paladin into Hercules. A mentally retarded Hercules with the judgement and thoughtfulness of a potato, but for some reason nobody cared. It really seems you're being willfully obtuse. I'm not going to waste my time in future. EDIT: If anybody replies that some of the attributes are worth less than others across all classes or some other garbage, as though they were final, I'm going to start bleeding out my eyes.

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I think it's great this thread is acting as a magnet for much of the hand-wringing on the forums.

Wow you really are doom sayer, here to spread the will of the CODEX! All shall be made clean by the cleansing light of it's infallible opinion! Like a neckbeard cabal.

The good ones are pay-gated, like SomethingAwful. That's why Sawyer, for example, posts way more over there than here. EDIT: Also why he smirked when asked if he was familiar with RPG Codex, heh.

I mean, haven't they stated that the writing is essentially finalized except for some editing and the VO? Could have sworn I read that somewhere.

I do concur here. People associate Might with Strength, but it isn't Strength, it is a reflection of the "force" or "power" of your soul. You could be a 100 pound weakling in Eora and have a 18 or higher Might. Changing it over to Power would be a good idea and fairly simple to implement. But this 100 pound weakling would still wreak havoc with a broadsword. He wouldn't have the right technique maybe, but he'd make tons of damage with each strike. No, I can't really visualize this character. :/ (I can live with Might, but it is a strange attribute for me if we don't go down the Dragonball route where strength equals magic powers.) I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this. What really matters here is his skill and training with the weapon, AKA his class IN CONJUNCTION with his attributes. As has been said, you can make an 18 Might Wizard but he still sucks in hand-to-hand or ranged combat. An 18 Might Fighter has the training and skill to apply his Might differently. In the military we call it "Intestinal Fortitude". Guts.

I do concur here. People associate Might with Strength, but it isn't Strength, it is a reflection of the "force" or "power" of your soul. You could be a 100 pound weakling in Eora and have a 18 or higher Might. Changing it over to Power would be a good idea and fairly simple to implement. If i am not mistaken ingame roleplaying options during dialogs associate Might=STR. It's not the same. They associate it with the capacity to do damage. That is NOT intrinsically tied to physical strength in PoE OR in the real world.

I didn't realize in BG I had to go to town and ask an npc to give me xp. Even if this very fallacious argument had any merit; let me ask you this: What if I don't know which npc the said Ogre head is even related to? Should I run around town talking to every npc hoping to get xp. Also; what if I didn't notice the Ogre head or thought it was worthless? How am I supposed to know it's attached to a quest? I could very well end up leaving the cave being none the wiser. These are issues that would/will come up. Not that that would even be the same. First, everyone in that dang village talks about how the peasant got his pigs stolen by the Ogre. Why is decapitating the Ogre even intrinsically worth a reward, on it's own? You can take his stuff and plunder his cave, maybe find hidden depths or passages to other areas. Disconnected from ANY other rationale or motivation, I think that's good enough. Regardless, as others have said, a well-crafted quest XP system will accommodate you.

I agree that corpses should absolutely stay at least until you leave the area. Preferably in wilderness areas they'd stay longer/indefinitely while in inhabited areas they'd be cleaned up upon leaving the area. It was always silly in BG to get into a fight at an inn, kill several people and just have the happy tavern music playing while chattering patrons go about their business with corpses strewn about forever. Slightly off topic, but Is there blood in the game? I saw some in the Gamescom footage, and when I load a savegame where I have dead enemies onscreen, I BRIEFLY see the pools of blood around the corpses before the game loads properly. Do you guys have proper blood?