Cerebus

I believe "Shogun" features such puzzles. It's an oldish Infocom/Legend adventure (written by the author of the novel) that involves figuring out Japanese grammar. I never played it but www.theunderdogs.org gave it a very good review.

Perhaps not the top choice, but I think that Kreia was masterfully sarcastic.

No, you won't. You are far to fond of your own words to delete a single one of them, regardless of how irrelevant they might be. Although I agree with Aegis (whose "attacks" where more than fair, by the way, and didn't deserve such a hot-tempered defense on your part), I think I will stay out of this one. That is because this is clearly a monologue thread, not a discussion.

Personal Crystal? How the hell did I miss that? I read the faq posted above and saw that you are supposed to find it in the Cave on Dantooine. Problem is: I didn't! Is it only in the X-Box version perchance? Or am I simply blind, daft and dumb?

I see that you have got a point but I also see that I don't see it ... ehm, if that makes any sense (in my defence, I am a linguist) This interests me. If you can provide a step-by-step explanation for dummies, I would apreciate it.

But assuming he had always lied before: Then the statement would be "the truth" and therefore a paradox because it disqualifies its own content. S: "This (S) true statement is false." Assuming he had never lied before, or only ocasionally: Then the statement would be false and still be a paradox: S:"This (S) false statement is false". Because the statement is refering to itself in an incorrect way.

But don't we have to assume that a statement is valid for it to be a possible paradox? And isn't "I always lie" basically the same as "This statement is false"? Since, if the speaker always lies, as he claims, then this particular statement would be lie, too. Ergo: "This statement is false." If we discard them as meaningless/false to begin with, then none of the alternatives above would qualify as paradoxes, if I understand you correctly. We would simply assume them to be lies.

Where is the problem with that, by the way? In my oppinion, it would only be a paradox if it were phrased: "Is 'no' the answer to this question?"

Hmm, I guess that's about all the 'Dark Side' runs up to: Domination. As for ruling the galaxy: Palpatine managed to accomplish this "implausible" task, after all. I wouldn't doubt that the "untold adventures of DS Revan" could lead to the same result, especially because he/she has a "Death Star" from the very beginning. Me neither. There will be lots of stories left to be told. But again, the task of showing these further developments in this particular medium, without breaking its very foundations, is too daunting. Both LS and DS main characters would do lots of things in the future, but their futures would look so differently that they couldn't be put into the same frame. At least not without forcibly blending them together, which can be done, occasionally, but only as an exception from the rule. I'm just not happy that this solution was chosen for the first follow-up, because it sets a questionable precedent. That's only if you feel the unconditional need to see them as connected. But you are probably right: I concede that the project can't change its direction in mid-flight. My point is more about future games of the Kotor-kind than Kotor 3.

But they would have to if they continue in this way.

Thanks. I should try it out. After all, playing Ultima was so important to me back then that I nearly had a hard attack when I found out that VII (1) was bugged and couldn't be finished without a patch. Yes, that was before the internet. IV was still the best, though. Completely unique. But perhaps we should start an off-topic thread for this one. Have to go now. See you around, guys

And I loved Ultima! (Until I finished VIII, that is ) . But Ultima was not a multi-path game. It was as single-path as can be imagined. You are the Avatar, the incarnation of Virtue in a Fantasy world and you return again and again and again to finish a given plot with a fixed ending. Of course you can write great sequels to that. And, in this case, breaking with continuity would be a mistake, since the whole Avatar-theme is what made the series. Kotor, however, is something completely different. And concerning "variations of the same theme": Star Wars itself is as "variation of the same theme" as it can get. "Aproaching Star Forge!" "Ready, Gold Leader" "Oh man, look at the size of that thing"

I'm confused... doesn't it have an effect on the storyline when a bad Revan burns the galaxy with his massive fleet and a good Revan builds a lot of petting zoos? I mean, after only five years and with many of the old crew still hanging around, it would be strange to find no trace of the rather extreme endings of Kotor 1 - unless one made them completely irrelevant. And I don't know how that is to be considered satisfying. So people would rather have inconsequential endless continuity than one good and final ending? Because they "want to know what happens to their characters"? That's weird. A story is finished when it is finished. Take Highlander (as an example how a decent story can be ruined by a sequel). Take Apocalypse Now. Nobody cares what Willard does after he returns from Kurtz's compound. "See Lawrence of Arabia: The Indian adventures this Saturday on Fox". Sometimes, the more you get, the less you have. There are types of stories that are designed for a long run of add-ons, and some of them are great. But (and I repeat myself here) open-ended ones can not belong to that category without breaking down in the long run (much, much sooner in most cases). I don't want to know what Luke Skywalker does after RotJ. Because they couldn't find a better place to finish his story (yeah, yeah, I know, he's surrounded by Ewoks, but you get the idea). To proof my point: Somebody on this Forum mentioned that Han Solo becomes a Force Sensitive after the films. How lame is that? Even if the creators do a good job (!) of dealing with the impossible task of providing successive continuity to a free-choice-ending, as Obsidian did(!) imagine what would happen if that tradition would continue. With every new sequel you would be told: Oh, by the way: Your actions made no difference whatsoever. Wow. That's satisfying closure. Has TSL more than one ending, by the way? Played only LS myself. I could imagine that Obsidian would evade one of the traps that Kotor 1's multiple endings had posed by simply fixing the outcome in Kotor II while making it as indefinite as possible at the same time. However, I think I need not point out how dissatisfying such an approach is! Case closed, for now.

So? That makes me a second level whiner while you are still a first-class imbecile. Anyway, you should give progress a shot. In your case, it would be called "evolution". And before you trouble yourself with looking it up: I mean that strange power that might present your line with opposable thumbs one glorious day. As for continuing this little exchange, lets do it via PM. I hope to hear from you soon, since I have so little opportunity to whine about monosyllabic gibberish where I live. Oh, and by the way: It's not called "whining" but "insulting", and I enjoy it quite a bit in your case. )

Actually, that reminds Most Holy of a fitting parable. Fetch a pen, Boobah! What Most Holy is trying to say is: Giving people a cameo of Revan is a little like throwing him from a rooftop. As for your point about the title, Most Holy will take the liberty to quote himself, because Most Holy is above shame:

See what I mean, you are a blathering imbecile. Your statement is still totally weak, since you only give your opinion without adding any argument whatsoever. "Durrh, me think Kotor II real good. Good balancing. Story good. Kotor 2 good. Duuurrh." That might pass for professional criticism in your trailer park, but certainly finds less resonance in areas where the genepool is denser populated. If you consider the whole "Revan in search of the Uber-Sith" plot interesting, then by all means, draw a little picture of it and show it to your wife and sister - perhaps she would like to see it. But please spare us non-simians your inconsequential drivel. Tell you what, why don't just fetch your keeper to read this thread out loud to you and then come back and write further posts, after you've figured out what this topic is really about. You should also check out the term 'argument' before you return. I could provide you with a link to an on-line dictionary, but the thing is I really dislike you and would rather keep you down in the mud, now that I think about it...

Yep, that's what I believe as well. And therefore, I really hope that we don't see the two of them again, since playing spirit-entities or nascent godlings on some weird pseudo-metaphysical battleground is not what I call a fulfilling Star Wars experience. So let bygones be bygones, let Revan and Exile pass into the realms of legends and give us a new storline.

I see your point and apologize for the rather aggressive tone of my note. It's just that you quoted my post, so I took it that you had either grossly misunderstood my intent or hadn't paid any attention to my arguments and wanted to attack me nevertheless. Although I basically agree with you, I believe our main concerns are different. You are trying to find a way to wrap up the the existing storyline, which lacks a satisfying ending. To do that, you would rather sacrifice a little choice than give up the whole plot, if I understand you correctly. I am thinking about KOTOR and multi-path-typed games in general, the necessities that come with their structure and possible patterns for KOTOR 4+. To that end, I would rather sacrifice a flawed plot than change the way KOTOR works. To be honest, I have given up on the existing "big picture" and don't expect a satisfactory conclusion. If it were up to me, I would just forget about it, let Revan and Exile explore the mysterious "beyond" on their own and start a new storyline. By the way, I assumed you were talking about a set male LS player character. Now it occurs to me that you might have been talking about Revan as a pre-defined male LS NPC, in which case the sacrifice of freedom of choice wouldn't be so drastic. If I misunderstood you here, too, I apologize again, and concede that it is I who should have paid closer attention to your arguments

Feel free to join the discussion about the applicability of continuity in KOTOR

To clear things up: Revan and Exile are clearly meant to be going to strange places where weird sh*t happens and common mortals do not dare to tread -a highly symbolical journey, in my opinion, but I could be mistaken here. Personally, I don't give a d*mn whether this "place" that is their destination is located beyond the rim, below the rim or between the rim, in the dark places, unknown places, soft places or spooky places, in New York, London, Moscow or Berlin. I was more interested in what you expect or want them to find there. But since this thread is public property, you are of course free to lead the discussion in whichever direction you desire. Just wanted to clear up any questions regarding the original intent and wording of the poll.

Do I sound like a hardcore suffragette to you? Have you even read any of the previous posts or were you just skimming through the last few lines? In any case, I think you are missing the point of my argument. What was "progressive" about Kotor (compared to "Infernal temple of sinister Evil" or whatever) was that it gave you a (limited) choice of who to be and what to do. That is the essential quality of Kotor. It is a multi-path game, and (to repeat myself) you can't write direct sequels to multi-path games without either making the ending of the previous one irrelevant (Kotor 2), coming up with an extremely stupid or outlandish plot (something along the lines of Highlander 2 for example) or going to the extreme length of writing several games and sell them as one (LA's favourite pastime). It is not about equality to desire the continuation of the structure (as opposed to 'plot') of KOTOR: it is about the genre! So you prefer a set beginning, a set character and a set ending. That's fine with me. There are good games built on that simple principle. But KOTOR is not one of them. To make KOTOR 2, 3, 4+ such a game would be like selling a Mario-type 2D jump&run as 'Doom 4'. Apart from that, your argument is inconsistent, anyway. If you don't mind tossing Revan, you do not have a problem, since the new game would give you a new character and a new story. If you do care about Revan's further adventures and want the next KOTOR to be a sequel, then you should also care about what has happened so far - and that depends on how you played the previous games. Demanding continuity while at the same time giving a sh*t about it strikes me as paradoxical, at best. "

Now I really hope that this question wasn't answered during the game and I missed it. In this case, feel free to write merciless posts about how stupid I am. The best one gets a price!

Is that from a movie? Or just an example of inadequate romantic representation of "human evolution" ?

But if you do not want to make TSL irrelevant, then you would have to give the Exile a major role as well. And then the number of possible (and meaningful)combinations would be quite mind-blowing for the creators. (Or so I suppose) This "insane" way of writing games is (proto-)Obsidian's speciality, and I enjoy it. You are right of course, they could make great Star Wars RPGs the easy way. But -especially after lurking on this board for two weeks- I know three things: a) there is a large crowd of fanatical Darth-disciples (which is of no surprise to me whatsoever ) b) there are many female players (which did surprise me, to be honest) c) (Not excluding players of group b ) people seem to be interested in going beyond the stereotypes of classic CRPGs. Continuing the tradition of standardized male LS characters might therefore be unprogressive But then again: the exploration of the Outer Rim (and I imagine it to be somewhat like the black monolith in 2001 Space Odyssey) might be better left to the evolving Jedi-"supermen". Us common mortals will either be unable to grasp the next level of sentience or disappointed by other common mortals' attempts to put such a strange transcendent world into a game

Thanks, ShadowPaladin. I was looking for a word that meant "sequel" without meaning "sequel" ... errm, you know what I mean. So, I would be perfectly happy with KOTOR being a franchise. And KOTOR would profit from that as well.