Companions and Romance

[Ryz009]

Let me put this on another post. Because it should be seperate.

 

When people say BW romances are a buffet to choose from. I get the impression they haven't played many BW romances or at least just said "oh this is crap." and went on. Like BW romances are faaaar more indepth than what we got from Deadfire. Even their "shallow" romances tend to be more indepth if you actually think about them. (Andromeda obviously was an exception here).

 

Also Bastila's romance wasn't  super deep for a BW LI if we're trying to hold it up as some symbol most romances should aspire to. That would be Morrigan and Alistair's romances. Hell I'd argue most of BW's romances were more well written than Bastila's.

 

ME1 romances were kind of iffy but then they get the benefit of having 3 games of development so Shepard and the ME1 LIs end up having great relationships. Even DA2 despite those awful time jumps had good romances (just had to accept a lot of the inherent dysfunction of them). Jade Empire while I love it to death had so so romances but that's probably because the game takes place over such a short amount of time it feels awkward.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Ryz009

[Aramintai]

Let me put this on another post. Because it should be seperate.

 

When people say BW romances are a buffet to choose from. I get the impression they haven't played many BW romances or at least just said "oh this is crap." and went on. Like BW romances are faaaar more indepth than what we got from Deadfire. Even their "shallow" romances tend to be more indepth if you actually think about them. (Andromeda obviously was an exception here).

 

Also Bastila's romance wasn't  super deep for a BW LI if we're trying to hold it up as some symbol most romances should aspire to. That would be Morrigan and Alistair's romances. Hell I'd argue most of BW's romances were more well written than Bastila's.

 

ME1 romances were kind of iffy but then they get the benefit of having 3 games of development so Shepard and the ME1 LIs end up having great relationships. Even DA2 despite those awful time jumps had good romances (just had to accept a lot of the inherent dysfunction of them). Jade Empire while I love it to death had so so romances but that's probably because the game takes place over such a short amount of time it feels awkward.

You forgot BG2. Funny, it was one of their first games but BG2 had the best romances. It's sad but true

I think unlike BioWare, romances certainly weren't a main selling feature for Obsidian in POE2, therefore not many resources were poured into it. Just be glad they caved and there are any.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Aramintai

[Ryz009]

 

Let me put this on another post. Because it should be seperate.

 

When people say BW romances are a buffet to choose from. I get the impression they haven't played many BW romances or at least just said "oh this is crap." and went on. Like BW romances are faaaar more indepth than what we got from Deadfire. Even their "shallow" romances tend to be more indepth if you actually think about them. (Andromeda obviously was an exception here).

 

Also Bastila's romance wasn't  super deep for a BW LI if we're trying to hold it up as some symbol most romances should aspire to. That would be Morrigan and Alistair's romances. Hell I'd argue most of BW's romances were more well written than Bastila's.

 

ME1 romances were kind of iffy but then they get the benefit of having 3 games of development so Shepard and the ME1 LIs end up having great relationships. Even DA2 despite those awful time jumps had good romances (just had to accept a lot of the inherent dysfunction of them). Jade Empire while I love it to death had so so romances but that's probably because the game takes place over such a short amount of time it feels awkward.

You forgot BG2. Funny, it was one of their first games but BG2 had the best romances. It's sad but true

 

 

I actually didn't find BG2's romances that good. Amoen was trash, Aerie was *shudders* and Viconia was a douchier Moriggan without a friendship route. At least you could call Carth on his whining.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Ryz009

[CaptainBiscuit]

Well, I for one like Bioware romances and don't see what's wrong with being able to choose from multiple companions with different personalities, depending on what character you are trying to roleplay. Most of the companions available for romance in their games are closely tied to the story and all have some kind of build-up prior to the romance itself, so it's not like all of them are itching to jump your character's bones from the start. And I don't really get where "it doesn't bring anything to the story" argument is coming from, since the whole point of romance in my opinion (or really any other type of relationship between characters, be it friendship or hate) is to make your character's story more immersive and personal. And the best part is - they are completely optional, nobody is forcing you to romance anyone.

That being said, I find current PoE2 romances and new companion relationship system lackluster in general, although there are some nice moments here and there, and it is definitely a big improvement from the first game, where you can sacrifice babies and kick companions into the blood pools without the rest of the party batting an eyelash.

 

When people say BW romances are a buffet to choose from. I get the impression they haven't played many BW romances or at least just said "oh this is crap." and went on. Like BW romances are faaaar more indepth than what we got from Deadfire. Even their "shallow" romances tend to be more indepth if you actually think about them. (Andromeda obviously was an exception here).

So much this.

 

That would be Morrigan and Alistair's romances. Hell I'd argue most of BW's romances were more well written than Bastila's.

I would add Solas to that list. Doesn't get more tied to the story than this :D

[Aramintai]

 

I actually didn't find BG2's romances that god. Amoen was trash, Aerie was *shudders* and Viconia was a douchier Moriggan without a friendship route.

 

I like Viconia's romance. Also, what about Jaheira's complex one?

[Ryz009]

 

 

I actually didn't find BG2's romances that god. Amoen was trash, Aerie was *shudders* and Viconia was a douchier Moriggan without a friendship route.

 

I like Viconia's romance. Also, what about Jaheira's complex one?

 

 

Oh god Jaheria. I blocked that from my mind because just no to her immediately hitting on my character before her husband's body was cold. Nope.

 

I mean the romance itself was fine but I couldn't divorce it from that start so it'll always be in the super nope category from me.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Ryz009

[Aramintai]

 

 

 

I actually didn't find BG2's romances that god. Amoen was trash, Aerie was *shudders* and Viconia was a douchier Moriggan without a friendship route.

 

I like Viconia's romance. Also, what about Jaheira's complex one?

 

 

Oh god Jaheria. I blocked that from my mind because just no to her immediately hitting on my character before her husband's body was cold. Nope.

 

Well, to each his own, I guess  Still, the way they were written is still far superior and far less cringy than most of the more recent BW games romances.

[Ryz009]

Well, I for one like Bioware romances and don't see what's wrong with being able to choose from multiple companions with different personalities, depending on what character you are trying to roleplay. Most of the companions available for romance in their games are closely tied to the story and all have some kind of build-up prior to the romance itself, so it's not like all of them are itching to jump your character's bones from the start. And I don't really get where "it doesn't bring anything to the story" argument is coming from, since the whole point of romance in my opinion (or really any other type of relationship between characters, be it friendship or hate) is to make your character's story more immersive and personal. And the best part is - they are completely optional, nobody is forcing you to romance anyone.

That being said, I find current PoE2 romances and new companion relationship system lackluster in general, although there are some nice moments here and there, and it is definitely a big improvement from the first game, where you can sacrifice babies and kick companions into the blood pools without the rest of the party batting an eyelash.

 

When people say BW romances are a buffet to choose from. I get the impression they haven't played many BW romances or at least just said "oh this is crap." and went on. Like BW romances are faaaar more indepth than what we got from Deadfire. Even their "shallow" romances tend to be more indepth if you actually think about them. (Andromeda obviously was an exception here).

So much this.

 

That would be Morrigan and Alistair's romances. Hell I'd argue most of BW's romances were more well written than Bastila's.

I would add Solas to that list. Doesn't get more tied to the story than this :D

 

Yeah it's mostly character building for me. When it gets too tied to the main plot it can get aggravating (especially if I don't like said NPC and don't want to romacne them but it's a but thou must scenario).

 

POE2 romances are pretty meh. DOS2's romances were pretty light too but they fit the game in being rather lighthearted.

 

Oh god yeah Solas is pretty good too. I usually friend him but Trespasser works well with him romanced. (Also your companions disapproving of you being a doormat was nice to see).

[Ryz009]

 

Well, to each his own, I guess  Still, the way they were written is still far superior and far less cringy than most of the more recent BW games romances.

 

It really wasn't though. I mean heck in times of absurd reasons for a romance she's easily in the top 3. I will never understand the love of BG2 romances because they follow very similar tropes and climaxes of modern BW romances and didn't even have the benefit of their experience in what not to do from earlier games. That and without a disapproval system it only mattered what you said to them and you could be a complete utter loon otherwise.  Well I suppose Rep but that was so easily abused it was worse than DAO's gift system The sad thing is it could've been natural if your PC had initiated it. But since she does it's all kinds of "huh?" Also really not helped by BG2's lack of friendship routes cause she really really needed one as an alternative to romance. As it is it looks like she comes onto the PC if her husband dies and if she's rejected she closes off and won't talk to them about her problems anymore because apparently if they don't want to love her romantically there's no discussion to be had. So glad BW stopped doing that idiocy.

 

As for recent BW romances being cringy. Which game and which characters? Because some characters are supposed to be more lighthearted and joking in their romances (Bull, Sera) that's intentional. If its not your thing that's one matter but for the most part its intentional.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Ryz009

[soraela]

 

 

 

So I know Maia and Tekehu (and maybe Xoti) are bugged to initiate faster than they should, but when can you have the conversation with Aloth about a relationship? I'm at tier 2 approval (through the mod) and no conversation.

 

I'm currently before the island of uh....the fabled Huana island...don't remember the name

 

Edit: nevermind, I found it haha

Could you tell how did you "find" it in the end? Because I'm at the same state - raised Aloth's disposition via mod to 2 after completing his quest. Aand... no romantic dialogue. Tried previous saves and on some of those it worked. But not on all. Can't understand what's wrong. I'm definitely not in a romance with anybody else and only completed some Huana quests between the "yes dialogue" and "no dialogue" state.

 

Could just forget it and lose 1-2 hours of the game, but I'm scared to somehow break the romance again.

 

If you don't have a romance dialogue with Aloth after completing his quest and having rep of 2 then go do the main quest (Ashen Maw). After the talks at the palace he will talk to you immediately.

 

 

Oh, wow, it worked! Thank you very much 

 

Just so anyone else wants to know, this is not a guaranteed event because I didn't get it and I made no indication that I wasn't interested. I had to go back, waaaaay back because it wouldn't initiate after the talks and even after doing some quests with him. (but its ok because rushed the hell out of the next quests)

 

I had to go back to the first conversation where it starts with: "Aloth looks at you with a smile that suggests the two of you are in on a marvelous secret." and "I finally feel good about what I'm doing." (depending about how he feels about your progress)

 

and instead of responding to "I'm glad you're on our side." with

-> "I'll have you put in a good word with Berath." Or the other option

Instead say:

->"I'm glad you're by mine." and that was the line that opens up the romance dialogue.

 

This one is a guarantee for sure and will happen when you hit tier 2

Edited May 12, 2018 by soraela

[Aramintai]

That and without a disapproval system it only mattered what you said to them and you could be a complete utter loon otherwise.

Personally, I hate approval systems, they're too cold and calculated for my tastes. BG2's companions relied on your general reputation to decide whether to stay or leave you and there were very rare cases of them leaving if you were a total **** to them in some dialogues.

 

As for recent BW romances being cringy. Which game and which characters? Because some characters are supposed to be more lighthearted and joking in their romances (Bull, Sera) that's intentional. If its not your thing that's one matter but for the most part its intentional.

 

Too many to count. It's actually easier to count the few that I liked - Morrigan, Solas, Cassandra, Ashley.

[Aramintai]

and instead of responding to "I'm glad you're on our side." with

-> "I'll have you put in a good word with Berath." Or the other option

Instead say:

->"I'm glad you're by mine." and that was the line that opens up the romance dialogue.

 

This one is a guarantee for sure and will happen when you hit tier 2

 

And that's the one and only romance dialogue I've seen from him until the end of the game, so congrats.

[Fredward]

Seems like Bioware remains king of companion hill. On the plus side this soothes my restartitis. 

[Aramintai]

Seems like Bioware remains king of companion hill. On the plus side this soothes my restartitis. 

It's all because of lack of any serious competition.

[Ryz009]

 

That and without a disapproval system it only mattered what you said to them and you could be a complete utter loon otherwise.

Personally, I hate approval systems, they're too cold and calculated for my tastes. BG2's companions relied on your general reputation to decide whether to stay or leave you and there were very rare cases of them leaving if you were a total **** to them in some dialogues.

 

As for recent BW romances being cringy. Which game and which characters? Because some characters are supposed to be more lighthearted and joking in their romances (Bull, Sera) that's intentional. If its not your thing that's one matter but for the most part its intentional.

 

Too many to count. It's actually easier to count the few that I liked - Morrigan, Solas, Cassandra, Ashley.

 

Rep could be more easily abused than approval however

 

I wouldn't say some BW romances weren't cringy but they certainly aren't the norm. And with as many romances as BW done of course some are gonna be cringy.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Ryz009

[Ryz009]

 

Seems like Bioware remains king of companion hill. On the plus side this soothes my restartitis. 

It's all because of lack of any serious competition.

 

 

Or it could suggest it's not as easy as people like to say it is.

[Aramintai]

You know, discussing fallacies of BW romances can be endless but mods will likely close the thread for off topic. Let's stick to POE2's.

[Ryz009]

You know, discussing fallacies of BW romances can be endless but mods will likely close the thread for off topic. Let's stick to POE2's.

 

Fair enough. For POE2's flaws I mostly would say it's because the romances seem really sparse and since the rep is bugged they seem to trigger way too fast.

 

Fish boy triggering that fast makes sense. The others though...

 

Like I don't find Xoti's thirst a flaw. That's a character trait. (and one she's called out on.)

Edited May 12, 2018 by Ryz009

[Fredward]

Them lacking competition and it being harder than it looks are hardly mutually exclusive. More and more companies seem to want in on the ridiculously disproportionate amount of conversation romance generates just without any real effort taking away from the 'real' content. I think it's fair to say that regardless of how cringy Bioware's romances are perceived to be the end result is a lot less so than you get with Bethesda or, now, Obsidian.

[Tarlonniel]

So far, I have no complaints about the romances that couldn't be fixed with a few more conversations (and fixing all the bugs, of course). I wonder how hard it would be for modders to add in additional dialogues? Though they wouldn't be voiced, of course.

[arober]

My Watcher has just been hit on by Tekehu and Maia within one minute. Had a conversation with one, took a step, then the other approached.

 

It's getting difficult to hold out for Aloth.

[Mari]

 

 

 

 

I actually didn't find BG2's romances that god. Amoen was trash, Aerie was *shudders* and Viconia was a douchier Moriggan without a friendship route.

 

I like Viconia's romance. Also, what about Jaheira's complex one?

 

 

Oh god Jaheria. I blocked that from my mind because just no to her immediately hitting on my character before her husband's body was cold. Nope.

 

Well, to each his own, I guess  Still, the way they were written is still far superior and far less cringy than most of the more recent BW games romances.

 

 

Since I only play female chars I cant speak to how "well written" the rest of the romances were, but Amoen was pretty bad. I'd rather take the DA(1&2) and ME romances over BG2's giant middle finger to women any day.  

 

As for POE2, does anyone know what triggers Eder/Iselmyr? Does it happen every time (if she was not suppressed)? Am I gonna have to bench Aloth to avoid the huge cringe factor of Eder rejecting my Watcher just to turn around and have creepy and questionable relations with the ghost that occasionally takes over Aloths body?? (I still cant believe that's an actual thing the devs included... such a **** move)

[soraela]

 

and instead of responding to "I'm glad you're on our side." with

-> "I'll have you put in a good word with Berath." Or the other option

Instead say:

->"I'm glad you're by mine." and that was the line that opens up the romance dialogue.

 

This one is a guarantee for sure and will happen when you hit tier 2

 

And that's the one and only romance dialogue I've seen from him until the end of the game, so congrats.

 

There's a couple of small things he says when you enter certain areas and I do like the change in tone when you talk to him.

 

Honestly I'm content with knowing that he finally reciprocates because I didn't really see him as being overly-romantic given his circumstances. Not trying to dismiss the lack of content but for me personally, I like the touch of knowing that my Watcher at least got a resolution to their feelings. 

[aksrasjel]

Also Bastila's romance wasn't  super deep for a BW LI if we're trying to hold it up as some symbol most romances should aspire to. That would be Morrigan and Alistair's romances. Hell I'd argue most of BW's romances were more well written than Bastila's.

 

TBH, Bastilla was just an example. But You got me there. I totally blanked out on DA:O and romances there were quite enjoyable. It's simply been ages since I last played it. Alistair is also a decent - and most would say a better - example of romance working together with the story, while at the same time being a fun, likeable character to boot (although my favourite from that game will always be Leliana and I won't bugde on that). I'm not so keen on Morrigan though - I think they were trying to capture this magic that was Viconia, but kind of missed the mark - but that's an entirely different topic altogether.

As to why for me BG 2 romances worked - beacuse I do definately agree that they worked - is beacuse of vast timespan of those romances, especially with Viconia. The relationship had time to breathe and develop thoughout the game - we're talking 35-40 convos with a companion here. Romancing a companion also took some effort - your responses mattered and it was deceptively easy to screw up a relationship if you said wrong thing at the wrong time and not all races were eligible. Good luck romancing Viconia with an elf. It all made romancing a fun and rewarding experience. Compare that to modern Bioware approach of "5-7 conversations, keep hitting the obvious flirtatious response, bam - we're in love, let's go to bed" that post-Mass Effect 2 games seemed to adopt. That's what I meant about picking a romance from a buffet - player is no longer putting actual effort into romancing a companion. Screw ups and turn-downs are almost impossible, player is 100% in charge of the situation and just needs to pick the character they wish to romance and that's it. I hope that cleared matters a bit. And if I'm going off-topic, I apologize.

[Tarlonniel]

There's a couple of small things he says when you enter certain areas and I do like the change in tone when you talk to him.

 

And little things like that make all the difference. Kudos to Obsidian for including them.

 

Screw ups and turn-downs are almost impossible, player is 100% in charge of the situation and just needs to pick the character they wish to romance and that's it.

Unless you picked Solas...

Edited May 12, 2018 by Tarlonniel