rogues do not suck

[Gromnir]

6k damage for the entire beta playthrough is...... really low imo.

 

 

*chuckle*

 

some folks is trying real hard.

 

unless you are being incredibly inefficient, there is only so much potential damage in the beta.  sure, you can waste big damage abilities on nameless mooks, but why?  total enemies defeated were 136.  so as a single target dps we accounted for over 1/3 o' all kills and did ~2000 more damage than anybody else in the party while only taking 329 damage.  sure, coulda' increased numbers by going with greatsword in modal, but it didn't fit the theme and such numbers would be largely wasted.  our damage observations were a response to the poster noting how squishy were rogues, but if you somehow see paucity, then am gonna admit amusement. mirror universe indeed. 

 

we got more than a few hours invested in the beta.  (understatement) even so, the vanilla rogue legit surprised us with how effective it were, particular as a caster killer. 

 

HA! Good Fun! 

[master guardian]

@OP

 

Sawyer has come and and officially stated that a single class rogue is currently the lowest DPS melee class in there analytics statistics.

 

So i regret that i must say that you are 100% wrong. 

 

I think they are about to get a buff though in the next patch

 

Also the loss of reckless assault and other weapon specialization talents that stack accuracy from the first game has severely impacted a rogues effectiveness. They can no longer Crit like they use too.

 

And imo the rogues evasive talents require too much micro and loss of DPS when either sneaking or invis. Compare this to a fighter with unbending who can sit there basically invincible and still dish out damage

 

If the rogue stays in its current weak state i see them being only a token class that is hardly ever used 

Edited April 10, 2018 by master guardian

[mostundesired]

with a plausible deadfire party, our non-min-maxed, human, deadfire raider rogue, were a dps dynamo who were able to almost complete mitigate his armourless squishiness.

 

Bold part is my problem. Rogues have to rely on the party, specifically because their own abilities are lackluster. Other classes don't. They do work with the party, because you design your party with synergy, but it's not a prerequisite to fulfilling their roles. Persisting Distraction is one part of a solution, lets rogues sneak attack in melee for free. Squish is a factor there. Not a big deal, as I said, but a factor that can make or break depending on how the encounter plays out. Use abilities to even it out? There's the problem, gotta have the party bail out the rogue. Meanwhile, range has no persistent distraction. So use abilities, right? There's the problem again. 

 

It's a party RPG, there's no way you can expect characters to be wholly independent unless you build them specifically to solo (and likely planned with a lot of cheese). I just don't like that the options that should help make rogue more independent when it comes to doing their bread and butter thing, damage, don't make rogue any significant amount more independent. I've had my rogue do great stuff, but had to jump through a good number of hoops to get there, most hoops being salvaging the remains of a plan contingent on rogues having reliable abilities. Might as well just spend all my guile on shadow veil, mortal blow, and the occasional crippling strike for interrupts, because they're at best vaguely useful for anything besides evasion and burst damage right now.

 

Besides that, we're on the same page. Especially on pirate fashion, need way more puffy shirts.

[dunehunter]

 

6k damage for the entire beta playthrough is...... really low imo.

 

*chuckle*

 

some folks is trying real hard.

 

unless you are being incredibly inefficient, there is only so much potential damage in the beta. sure, you can waste big damage abilities on nameless mooks, but why? total enemies defeated were 136. so as a single target dps we accounted for over 1/3 o' all kills and did ~2000 more damage than anybody else in the party while only taking 329 damage. sure, coulda' increased numbers by going with greatsword in modal, but it didn't fit the theme and such numbers would be largely wasted. our damage observations were a response to the poster noting how squishy were rogues, but if you somehow see paucity, then am gonna admit amusement. mirror universe indeed.

 

we got more than a few hours invested in the beta. (understatement) even so, the vanilla rogue legit surprised us with how effective it were, particular as a caster killer.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I’m not trying anything I’m just telling the truth, in my playthrough, I just did the titan fight plus 2 level of the dungeon with a 4 member team, my monk/devoted get 8k+ in record, soulblades/paladin 4k, pure ascendant 4k and chanter support so not much damage. Anyway happy you enjoy your rogue and I’m not convincing you it’s not good or anything.

[Tattyblue]

Now do the same test but compare the rogue to another class. Nothing is usually horrible in compared to it self. Eating a cheap hamburger is not bad until you see someone eating your favorite meal. Compare the badly created rogue to a badly created fighter for example. The fighter will do almost everything bad then the rogue.

 

The problem with rogues is their key element, single enemy damage. This key element cant be achieved in this setting without micro managing said rogue and it cant happen from a position of any type of safety. Extend backstab range out from 2m to say 6 m and rogue might be on par with other classes. A priest can heal, can debuff, can buff, can bring the dead back to life how is poking someone in the back from 2m supposed to compete with that power set?

 

Of the few pillars I polls I  could find the rogue was by far the least favorite class and was the least chosen as some ones favorite class.

[Yosharian]

@OP

 

Sawyer has come and and officially stated that a single class rogue is currently the lowest DPS melee class in there analytics statistics.

 

So i regret that i must say that you are 100% wrong. 

 

I think they are about to get a buff though in the next patch

 

Also the loss of reckless assault and other weapon specialization talents that stack accuracy from the first game has severely impacted a rogues effectiveness. They can no longer Crit like they use too.

 

And imo the rogues evasive talents require too much micro and loss of DPS when either sneaking or invis. Compare this to a fighter with unbending who can sit there basically invincible and still dish out damage

 

If the rogue stays in its current weak state i see them being only a token class that is hardly ever used 

 

> Sawyer has come and and officially stated that a single class rogue is currently the lowest DPS melee class in there analytics statistics.

 

I thought he said it was the opposite when people actually put the Rogue in decent armor?

 

I don't think you're telling the whole story with respect to this comments on this issue

[Yosharian]

 

 

6k damage for the entire beta playthrough is...... really low imo.

 

*chuckle*

 

some folks is trying real hard.

 

unless you are being incredibly inefficient, there is only so much potential damage in the beta. sure, you can waste big damage abilities on nameless mooks, but why? total enemies defeated were 136. so as a single target dps we accounted for over 1/3 o' all kills and did ~2000 more damage than anybody else in the party while only taking 329 damage. sure, coulda' increased numbers by going with greatsword in modal, but it didn't fit the theme and such numbers would be largely wasted. our damage observations were a response to the poster noting how squishy were rogues, but if you somehow see paucity, then am gonna admit amusement. mirror universe indeed.

 

we got more than a few hours invested in the beta. (understatement) even so, the vanilla rogue legit surprised us with how effective it were, particular as a caster killer.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I’m not trying anything I’m just telling the truth, in my playthrough, I just did the titan fight plus 2 level of the dungeon with a 4 member team, my monk/devoted get 8k+ in record, soulblades/paladin 4k, pure ascendant 4k and chanter support so not much damage. Anyway happy you enjoy your rogue and I’m not convincing you it’s not good or anything.

 

 

Your maths doesn't add up.

 

6k isn't 'really low' compared to 8k.  8k is only 25% more than 6k.  If 8k is the ceiling set by the most overpowered class combo in the game (not to mention Devoted is restricted to one weapon type), 6k isn't bad at all.

[mostundesired]

> Sawyer has come and and officially stated that a single class rogue is currently the lowest DPS melee class in there analytics statistics.

 

I thought he said it was the opposite when people actually put the Rogue in decent armor?

 

I don't think you're telling the whole story with respect to this comments on this issue

 

IIRC, he said he theorized part of the reason why multiclass Rogues have higher damage numbers is because they bother to wear heavier armor, whereas single class don't. Didn't explicitly say single class Rogues have the highest damage when wearing heavy armor. Worth testing, though.

[Gromnir]

Now do the same test but compare the rogue to another class. Nothing is usually horrible in compared to it self. Eating a cheap hamburger is not bad until you see someone eating your favorite meal. Compare the badly created rogue to a badly created fighter for example. The fighter will do almost everything bad then the rogue.

 

 

this were already addressed.  our party were companion analogs and the rogue outclassed 'em all significant.

 

converse, have personal played every votary, templar and contemplative combo, and particular with the return of might, many o' these combos is excessive strong. the rogue were on par with more than a few such.  not the best, but not the worst.

 

have played most ascetic combos as well.

 

single class paladins is clear win even w/o multiclassing.

 

etc.

 

am not certain what comparisons you want, 'cause the most important comparison is how the rogue compares to actual game challenges.  were our run with a rogue pc more challenging simple 'cause we played a rogue?  is what we expected and were not the case.  compared to the challenges o' deadfire, our rogue as described in the party as we described, absolute destroyed all veteran difficulty encounters save for the titan and blights.

 

the beta run were surprising fun and the vanilla rogue were far beyond simple viable.  potent.

 

 

 

 

6k damage for the entire beta playthrough is...... really low imo.

 

*chuckle*

 

some folks is trying real hard.

 

unless you are being incredibly inefficient, there is only so much potential damage in the beta. sure, you can waste big damage abilities on nameless mooks, but why? total enemies defeated were 136. so as a single target dps we accounted for over 1/3 o' all kills and did ~2000 more damage than anybody else in the party while only taking 329 damage. sure, coulda' increased numbers by going with greatsword in modal, but it didn't fit the theme and such numbers would be largely wasted. our damage observations were a response to the poster noting how squishy were rogues, but if you somehow see paucity, then am gonna admit amusement. mirror universe indeed.

 

we got more than a few hours invested in the beta. (understatement) even so, the vanilla rogue legit surprised us with how effective it were, particular as a caster killer.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I’m not trying anything I’m just telling the truth, in my playthrough, I just did the titan fight plus 2 level of the dungeon with a 4 member team, my monk/devoted get 8k+ in record, soulblades/paladin 4k, pure ascendant 4k and chanter support so not much damage. Anyway happy you enjoy your rogue and I’m not convincing you it’s not good or anything.

 

 

 

so one less party member and exact the kinda nonsense we were talking 'bout with trying to compare to op multiclass builds?

 

and you do realize you are comparing a 4-man party to 5, to end up with 25% more damage?  

 

*gasp*

 

as an important aside, am not certain why folks is arguing with Gromnir.  our post were not to convince beta folks who has admitted forgone testing the beta 4 rogue but has nevertheless made up their minds 'bout it.  the reason why we posted here instead of in the beta portion o' the boards were to let folks who hasn't played the beta know how rogues genuine perform.  is also worth noting we ain't yet had a beta player actual share their beta 4 experience revealing how tough a slog were the veteran difficulty content with a normalized party and a rogue pc, eh?   

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 10, 2018 by Gromnir

[dunehunter]

 

 

 

6k damage for the entire beta playthrough is...... really low imo.

*chuckle*

 

some folks is trying real hard.

 

unless you are being incredibly inefficient, there is only so much potential damage in the beta. sure, you can waste big damage abilities on nameless mooks, but why? total enemies defeated were 136. so as a single target dps we accounted for over 1/3 o' all kills and did ~2000 more damage than anybody else in the party while only taking 329 damage. sure, coulda' increased numbers by going with greatsword in modal, but it didn't fit the theme and such numbers would be largely wasted. our damage observations were a response to the poster noting how squishy were rogues, but if you somehow see paucity, then am gonna admit amusement. mirror universe indeed.

 

we got more than a few hours invested in the beta. (understatement) even so, the vanilla rogue legit surprised us with how effective it were, particular as a caster killer.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I’m not trying anything I’m just telling the truth, in my playthrough, I just did the titan fight plus 2 level of the dungeon with a 4 member team, my monk/devoted get 8k+ in record, soulblades/paladin 4k, pure ascendant 4k and chanter support so not much damage. Anyway happy you enjoy your rogue and I’m not convincing you it’s not good or anything.

Your maths doesn't add up.

 

6k isn't 'really low' compared to 8k. 8k is only 25% more than 6k. If 8k is the ceiling set by the most overpowered class combo in the game (not to mention Devoted is restricted to one weapon type), 6k isn't bad at all.

And I also said I didn’t play the whole playthrough, only titan and dungeon 1,2

[Yosharian]

 

 

 

 

6k damage for the entire beta playthrough is...... really low imo.

*chuckle*

 

some folks is trying real hard.

 

unless you are being incredibly inefficient, there is only so much potential damage in the beta. sure, you can waste big damage abilities on nameless mooks, but why? total enemies defeated were 136. so as a single target dps we accounted for over 1/3 o' all kills and did ~2000 more damage than anybody else in the party while only taking 329 damage. sure, coulda' increased numbers by going with greatsword in modal, but it didn't fit the theme and such numbers would be largely wasted. our damage observations were a response to the poster noting how squishy were rogues, but if you somehow see paucity, then am gonna admit amusement. mirror universe indeed.

 

we got more than a few hours invested in the beta. (understatement) even so, the vanilla rogue legit surprised us with how effective it were, particular as a caster killer.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I’m not trying anything I’m just telling the truth, in my playthrough, I just did the titan fight plus 2 level of the dungeon with a 4 member team, my monk/devoted get 8k+ in record, soulblades/paladin 4k, pure ascendant 4k and chanter support so not much damage. Anyway happy you enjoy your rogue and I’m not convincing you it’s not good or anything.

Your maths doesn't add up.

 

6k isn't 'really low' compared to 8k. 8k is only 25% more than 6k. If 8k is the ceiling set by the most overpowered class combo in the game (not to mention Devoted is restricted to one weapon type), 6k isn't bad at all.

And I also said I didn’t play the whole playthrough, only titan and dungeon 1,2

 

 

Alright, fair enough

[Gromnir]

keep in mind we didn't level-up our party.  started at sixth and ended at eight, but reached eight only at the end.  if folks enable scaling and level their characters to nine, then foes will similar be level'd with more health.  have seen more than a few folks doing so.

 

*shrug*

 

regardless, is only so much damage one can do as, y'know, stuff dies after doing enough damage to kill foes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Boeroer]

Right. Nobody read that part with "Titan and dungeon 1+2" I guess.

 

But at the moment overkill damage is also included in the log if I'm not mistaken?

 

I beta3 the orlan merc rogue was severely underpowered. I didn't do a complete party run with a SC rogue in beta4 - so maybe this has indeed changed. I can see that a SC Streetfighter is way better now.

 

I personally like playing a rogue the "backstabby" way - so I imagine with stealth & invisibility you can do some serious stuff. I don't care if the time while I'm invisible is costing me dps. If I can reach my target unharmed and unhindered and then one-shot it that's effective. I have to move to enemies anyway and it doesn't matter if that is done invisible or not (when talking about dps loss).

 

What I don't like is stuff like Escape if it's used for fleeing. Doesn't really work if your recovery is 6+ seconds after a backstab because of suggested thick armor and the necessary great sword or arquebus (stupid) and so on.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Boeroer

[master guardian]

sawyer 100% said rogues are the lowest dps single class at the moment

 

fact

[Boeroer]

He said that based on data that didn't include beta4, only beta1-beta3. Fact.

 

Also it doesn't matter that much if they are lowest dps - what matters is if they are useful or not.

 

In beta4 rogues got interrupt abilities for all their strikes (great improvement) as well as more ability points for single classes. Also Assassination/Backstab from invisibility was fixed as well as Backstabs with ranged weapons. So now we can only guess what telemetry says about ne new rogue.

[Yosharian]

Right. Nobody read that part with "Titan and dungeon 1+2" I guess.

 

But at the moment overkill damage is also included in the log if I'm not mistaken?

 

I beta3 the orlan merc rogue was severely underpowered. I didn't do a complete party run with a SC rogue in beta4 - so maybe this has indeed changed. I can see that a SC Streetfighter is way better now.

 

I personally like playing a rogue the "backstabby" way - so I imagine with stealth & invisibility you can do some serious stuff. I don't care if the time while I'm invisible is costing me dps. If I can reach my target unharmed and unhindered and then one-shot it that's effective. I have to move to enemies anyway and it doesn't matter if that is done invisible or not (when talking about dps loss).

 

What I don't like is stuff like Escape if it's used for fleeing. Doesn't really work if your recovery is 6+ seconds after a backstab because of suggested thick armor and the necessary great sword or arquebus (stupid) and so on.

Necessary?

[master guardian]

He said that based on data that didn't include beta4, only beta1-beta3. Fact.Also it doesn't matter that much if they are lowest dps - what matters is if they are useful or not.In beta4 rogues got interrupt abilities for all their strikes (great improvement) as well as more ability points for single classes. Also Assassination/Backstab from invisibility was fixed as well as Backstabs with ranged weapons. So now we can only guess what telemetry says about ne new rogue.

What major differences do you see that will make the rogue better then the first game ?

 

You didn’t like them in the first game at all. Why have you changed your tune?

[Gregorovitch]

Blimey, I don't know if you can make a Swashbuckler a Black Jacket as well, but if you could............

 

 

Looks like "Have machine gun, will travel".

[Boeroer]

Swashbuckler = Fighter/Rogue. Doesn't matter which subclass is involved. So of course you can make a Black Jacket/rogue. Especially if you want to destroy bosses' deflection completely you can take Confunding Blind for your first weapon set of blunderbusses and then fire the remaining 3 pairs of blunderbusses on the same target. You will reduce the deflection by 30 if I recall correctly (if he/she doensn't die from being shot itself).

 

What's also a good pick for Black Jacket Gunslinger as second class is obviously Sharpshooter because of the increased PEN, the (accurate) wounding shots and also because of Driving Flight - and slower recovery doesn't matter while switching guns. Also the pet helps to keep enemies away from you.

 

I have no idea why the guy in the vid put MIG at 10 for a weapon build though...

Edited April 10, 2018 by Boeroer

[Gromnir]

 

He said that based on data that didn't include beta4, only beta1-beta3. Fact.Also it doesn't matter that much if they are lowest dps - what matters is if they are useful or not.In beta4 rogues got interrupt abilities for all their strikes (great improvement) as well as more ability points for single classes. Also Assassination/Backstab from invisibility was fixed as well as Backstabs with ranged weapons. So now we can only guess what telemetry says about ne new rogue.

What major differences do you see that will make the rogue better then the first game ?

 

You didn’t like them in the first game at all. Why have you changed your tune?

 

interrupts would be a huge factor one assumes.  the interrupt scheme has been complete revamped in deadfire after all. even with quicker casting times *le sigh* a rogue with two quick weapons may effective stunlock a caster, and most other foes.  as far as we can tell, all rogue offensive abilities now interrupt, so choose the 1 guile cheap stuff and use with a quick weapon build for interrupting supremacy.  keep in mind one may interrupt melee actions as well, so the ability to interrupt frequent is adding to survivability o' the rogue in combat as well.  

 

and it sounds as if you are basing your criticism on poe gameplay and assuming the deadfire rogue plays the same. so we return to our previous question:

 

"am genuine wondering how many rogue pundits bothered to play a rogue in beta 4?"

 

yes, compared to a handful o' optimized and op multiclass combos, a vanilla role-play rogue as we built will be lackluster, but compare to other op multiclass builds is stoopid-- honest.  compare to game challenges.  play the game and then tell us you actual struggled with beta 4 challenges on veteran difficulty.  a broken op multiclass with a similarly normalized party as Gromnir used will have less impact than you imagine as such replacement in our party will simple result in combats ending a second or two sooner.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Boeroer]

What major differences do you see that will make the rogue better then the first game ?

 

You didn’t like them in the first game at all. Why have you changed your tune?

First of all: I never said or meant that I don't like rogues in PoE. I like them. I only said that they are the weakest class in PoE. Mainly because they fall behind in the mid to late game due to the lack on any AoE and no multiplicative damage mods like lashes or whatever. Doesn't matter...

 

The rogue in Deadfire interrupts with every active ability on it (correct Gromnir), which is great. He's is not as squishy, has even more tools to avoid damage (I like the immunity to engagement after a crit but think Escape is too expensive) and can turn invisible multiple times per encounter (cool and useful). That's on the plus side.

 

What I don't like about the new rogue is that he has a lot of active abilites (most of them a bit unimpressive if you don't abuse them - like Arterial Strike or Confounding Blind) that compete for guile but are not very distinct and that he only has a few interesting passives.

 

At the moment he plays very well as a "behind enemy lines" striker who can lock down and kill casters very quickly. As Gromnir said, he's very useful against the Engwithan Saints.

 

Of course atm a rogue feels a lot better in a multiclass setup because Power Level doesn't do a lot for him and his good abilites (most importantly Sneak Attack and Backstab) come pretty early and can be combined with multiplicative lashes. And since we can't see what comes past lvl 9 we can't be sure if a single class rogue will be equal in power to a multiclass one. I really hope that some of the stuff that got data-mined is an ability that gives the rogue a lash (be it raw damage from poison or corrosive or whatever) so that his additive dmg mods scale better in the late game.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Boeroer

[molotov.]

In this video made by nerdcommando:

It shows a street fighter rogue doing 70+ damage each hit.

[Gromnir]

for funsies, we did another rogue run with a level 9 party.  no changes to basic character, attributes and talents from our previous rogue save for fact we almost exclusive used clubs even though sabres woulda' been getting more outta the devastating blow hits... and second-tier options for finishing blow is, well, devastating. character were female, but am not thinking such were a significant change from a gameplay pov. 'course as a level 9 character, we had access to additional talents such as the  aforementioned devastating blow and deep wounds.

 

 

 

have said it before, but scaling is not working as advertised.  a level 9 party is much stronger than a level 6 or 7, even when scaling option is enabled. 

 

am thinking folks could learn much by actual bothering to play a beta 4 rogue.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[master guardian]

 

What major differences do you see that will make the rogue better then the first game ?You didn’t like them in the first game at all. Why have you changed your tune?

First of all: I never said or meant that I don't like rogues in PoE. I like them. I only said that they are the weakest class in PoE. Mainly because they fall behind in the mid to late game due to the lack on any AoE and no multiplicative damage mods like lashes or whatever. Doesn't matter...The rogue in Deadfire interrupts with every active ability on it (correct Gromnir), which is great. He's is not as squishy, has even more tools to avoid damage (I like the immunity to engagement after a crit but think Escape is too expensive) and can turn invisible multiple times per encounter (cool and useful). That's on the plus side.What I don't like about the new rogue is that he has a lot of active abilites (most of them a bit unimpressive if you don't abuse them - like Arterial Strike or Confounding Blind) that compete for guile but are not very distinct and that he only has a few interesting passives.At the moment he plays very well as a "behind enemy lines" striker who can lock down and kill casters very quickly. As Gromnir said, he's very useful against the Engwithan Saints.Of course atm a rogue feels a lot better in a multiclass setup because Power Level doesn't do a lot for him and his good abilites (most importantly Sneak Attack and Backstab) come pretty early and can be combined with multiplicative lashes. And since we can't see what comes past lvl 9 we can't be sure if a single class rogue will be equal in power to a multiclass one. I really hope that some of the stuff that got data-mined is an ability that gives the rogue a lash (be it raw damage from poison or corrosive or whatever) so that his additive dmg mods scale better in the late game.

That’s a great rundown but a rogue could do all that in pillars 1. I haven’t really had a look at the increased interrupts yet but I hope it’s good.yeah I agree a lot of there abilities are very mediocre and I can’t see them having to much of an effect.

 

One thing I loved a bout rogues in pillars 1 was how often they critted, with the loss of reckless assault and other accuracy talents this may well be a thing of the past.

[Blades of Vanatar]

If your playing in a party buffs will still stack plenty of ACC to crit often with a Rogue.