Single Weapon Style?

[KDubya]

The free +12 accuracy for single wielding is very good and easily the equal of the free +30% attack speed from dual wielding and is comparable to the inherent extra damage that two handers have.

 

The only discrepancies and shortcomings are in the Fighter only talents for weapon styles. There the single weapon talent is pretty much crap while the other two are pretty good.

 

Since this shortcoming only affects Fighters who take single weapon style I'd guess that it is really low on the list of things that need fixing.

[Boeroer]

Yes, but it would be pretty easy to fix. Or they just could have left it like it was (hit-to-crit) and spare even more time and effort.

[Mack]

It's worse. It still gives you +12 ACC automatically if you only put a one handed weapon in your main had, but the One Handed Style got changed from 15% hit-to-crit to miss-to-graze.

 

I don't have the beta but the latest patch appears to have One Handed Style giving +20% hit-to-crit. Could someone confirm? 

[Boeroer]

The conversion got changed from miss-to-graze to hit-to-crit, yes.

[Mack]

Thanks for confirming. Have they kept +12 acc?

 

Any thoughts? Has anyone tried it out?

[Boeroer]

Yes, but that's not part of the ability "Single Weapon Style". You get +12 ACC automatically when using a single one handed weapon - like in PoE.

 

Since dual wielding has been nerfed to 30% speed instead of 50% it's ok now. For example with a single rapier + modal you can reliably crit even foes with high defenses. Crits have 1.5 times the PEN, so it can be very effective against tough enemies.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Boeroer

[Mack]

That sounds great. Maybe my high INT, SW devoted assassin won't be gimped after all! 

[Boeroer]

Hm, for an assassin I would recommend hard hitting weapons. So, no rapier or dagger or something like that. You only get one attack out of stealth/invisibility with the assassination bonus so you want to make sure it hits as hard as possible. One handed sabre or sword could be ok though.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Boeroer

[Mack]

Hm, for an assassin I would recommend hard hitting weapons. So, no rapier or dagger so something like that. You only get one attack out of stealth/invisibility with the assassination bonus so you want to make sure it hits as hard as possible. One handed sabre or sword could be ok though.

 

On my second playthrough of PoE I built a fighter around the ideas of mobility and disruption. I guess he was a bit like a light cavalryman without the horse. So he had fast runner, boots of speed, graceful retreat, extra knockdown (with high INT for duration), some other stuff, and when he finally acquired charge he came into his own. He could be wherever he needed to be: charge the backline to instagib a caster, run off to intercept an enemy, land a 10 second knockdown, sprint over to support the tank, maneuver to line up enemies for another big charge, and so on. Not a build for soloing POTD but a fun playstyle that was reasonably effective in a party. 

 

I want to reuse that in Deadfire and was thinking a Fighter/Rogue (even more fun, mobile, and disruptive) with a single wield, fast weapon (though I would consider a sabre too). Do you have any suggestions on subclasses, talents, weapons, etc. that would optimize this build while fitting in with the concept/aesthetic?  

Edited April 4, 2018 by Mack

[Yosharian]

For the record I completely agree that the suggestion I posted is too complex to introduce this late in the game's dev cycle.  I was just spitballing, really.

[Frog Man]

 

Hm, for an assassin I would recommend hard hitting weapons. So, no rapier or dagger so something like that. You only get one attack out of stealth/invisibility with the assassination bonus so you want to make sure it hits as hard as possible. One handed sabre or sword could be ok though.

On my second playthrough of PoE I built a fighter around the ideas of mobility and disruption. I guess he was a bit like a light cavalryman without the horse. So he had fast runner, boots of speed, graceful retreat, extra knockdown (with high INT for duration), some other stuff, and when he finally acquired charge he came into his own. He could be wherever he needed to be: charge the backline to instagib a caster, run off to intercept an enemy, land a 10 second knockdown, sprint over to support the tank, maneuver to line up enemies for another big charge, and so on. Not a build for soloing POTD but a fun playstyle that was reasonably effective in a party.

 

I want to reuse that in Deadfire and was thinking a Fighter/Rogue (even more fun, mobile, and disruptive) with a single wield, fast weapon (though I would consider a sabre too). Do you have any suggestions on subclasses, talents, weapons, etc. that would optimize this build while fitting in with the concept/aesthetic?

This could be a fun role for Eder since he can go fighter / rogue. Looking forward to hearing responses to this.

[Mack]

Another thing I've been ruminating on. You're a fighter. Say you take an accurate weapon, so you have +17 ACC total. Then you put a point or two or more into PER, and you take Disciplined Barrage. And then you take Warrior stance for the sweet +5 ACC modal. So now you've got about +30 ACC, give or take

 

At that point how important are miss-graze, graze-to-hit, and hit-to-crit perks like Confident Aim, Disciplined Strikes, or even Single Weapon Style? (Or, in the case of multi-classing with rogue, Dirty Fighting, Uncanny Luck, etc.) You're already an accuracy machine. 

 

My sense is that with this build a fighter could at least leave out Confident Aim, and maybe either Single Weapon or Disciplined Strikes, while a swashbuckler (I keep mentioning it because it's my pet project) could also maybe leave out Dirty Fighting and definitely Uncanny Luck. Ordinarily these would be considered good perks to take, but with accuracy coming out of your ass maybe you could spend your points elsewhere.

 

Or you could take them all and almost guarantee hits and crits on every attack.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Mack

[Mack]

It would take more information and mathematical ability than I have to work this out, but just looking at the basic numbers I feel like a single sabre-wielding devoted/rogue with the right perks could do impressive single target damage. Very high accuracy already skews your miss-graze-hit-crit curve way towards hits and crits. Add the relevant perks and (if I'm not mistaken) you have 100% graze-to-hit, and 85% hit-to-crit. Devoted crits add 50% dmg, and your odds of another 25% (is that right?) from overpen are quite decent. Then another 50% from frequent sneak attacks, and 150% from occasional backstabs. Throw in a 20% DoT from deep wounds for good measure. I mean, I don't have the beta, but to me those numbers feel pretty high. 

[Boeroer]

Well it's very difficult to remove hits entirely, so hit to crit is always good, especially if it comes in chunks of 50%.

 

Conversion chances don't add up. They are multiplicative. So every added conversion has less and less impact. 50% and 50% will result in a 75% chance overall, not 100%.

That's because on a hit roll all conversions will be checked one after the other.

 

Also remember that you can get hit by an afflicton (lowering ACC) or meet foes with exceptional defenses. Of course conversions have diminishing returns the higher the discrepancy between ACC and defense is, but still...

 

Uncanny Luck's conversion is meh by the way - especially if you already have other conversions like Disciplined Strikes. Uncanny Luck will raise the overall conversion rate from 0.5 to 0.525. if you add Single Weapon Style with 15% conversion it will be 0.575 to 0.596 with Uncanny. And so on. I would never give an ability point for that conversion. Maybe for the damage resistance as a tank...

Edited April 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[KDubya]

Confident Aim will only add effectively 25% graze to hit as you'll have Disciplined Strikes up for 50% already so its not as essential but remember that the ability choices at low level Fighter are really limited so Confident Aim might end up being the best of a bad choice.

 

Dual wielding will do more damage and clear trash faster but the toughest fights will do better with the super accurate single weapon style. The Devoted getting better crit damage has a nice synergy with the extra accuracy and hit to crit that single weapon style gets. Maybe go with robes instead of armor to keep the attack rate up. Even heavy armor looks like its frequently breached so might as well go naked.

[Yosharian]

Confident Aim will only add effectively 25% graze to hit as you'll have Disciplined Strikes up for 50% already so its not as essential but remember that the ability choices at low level Fighter are really limited so Confident Aim might end up being the best of a bad choice.

 

Dual wielding will do more damage and clear trash faster but the toughest fights will do better with the super accurate single weapon style. The Devoted getting better crit damage has a nice synergy with the extra accuracy and hit to crit that single weapon style gets. Maybe go with robes instead of armor to keep the attack rate up. Even heavy armor looks like its frequently breached so might as well go naked.

 

So One-Handed Style beats or is at least on par with Dual-Wield?

 

What about 2H?  Still awful?

[Boeroer]

And remember that Confident Aim is a passive. That means even if you don't have any more Discipline to fuel Disciplined Strikes: Confident Aim will be there as a backup. You will drop from 75% to 50%. With no Confident Aim you drop from 50% to 0%.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[KDubya]

 

Confident Aim will only add effectively 25% graze to hit as you'll have Disciplined Strikes up for 50% already so its not as essential but remember that the ability choices at low level Fighter are really limited so Confident Aim might end up being the best of a bad choice.

 

Dual wielding will do more damage and clear trash faster but the toughest fights will do better with the super accurate single weapon style. The Devoted getting better crit damage has a nice synergy with the extra accuracy and hit to crit that single weapon style gets. Maybe go with robes instead of armor to keep the attack rate up. Even heavy armor looks like its frequently breached so might as well go naked.

 

So One-Handed Style beats or is at least on par with Dual-Wield?

 

What about 2H?  Still awful?

 

 

Without running the math I'd say that dual wielding is probably better in all cases but single weapon style, especially with a Devoted or anyone with something special for crits, is close enough to not be a gimped choice. As long as doing like 10-20% less damage is close enough anyway. It gets complicated when you try and factor in the penetration effects of crits and overpenetration, or even a situation where you need a crit to get past the armor.

 

Not sure that the same can be said for two handed style, it does like the same damage as single weapon style but doesn't get the big boost to accuracy and crits.

 

If I was balancing dual wielding I'd give it a -1 malus to penetration or something like that.

[Boeroer]

That's a good idea actually. Give two handers or two handed style +1 PEN and it's balanced better AND also makes some sense.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Boeroer

[Mack]

Confident Aim will only add effectively 25% graze to hit as you'll have Disciplined Strikes up for 50% already so its not as essential but remember that the ability choices at low level Fighter are really limited so Confident Aim might end up being the best of a bad choice.

 

Dual wielding will do more damage and clear trash faster but the toughest fights will do better with the super accurate single weapon style. The Devoted getting better crit damage has a nice synergy with the extra accuracy and hit to crit that single weapon style gets. Maybe go with robes instead of armor to keep the attack rate up. Even heavy armor looks like its frequently breached so might as well go naked.

 

 

And remember that Confident Aim is a passive. That means even if you don't have any more Discipline to fuel Disciplined Strikes: Confident Aim will be there as a backup. You will drop from 75% to 50%. With no Confident Aim you drop from 50% to 0%.

 

Thanks for your insights. It sounds like with this single weapon, crit-fishing devoted, Confident Aim is still integral to the build, because it's handy and there's a lack of choice at the lower levels. But! if you multiclass and have other compelling options, Confident Aim is perhaps not a must-have. That's very interesting.

 

Now, since I AM planning to multi-class with rogue, it sounds like the pay-offs for Uncanny Luck and even for Dirty Fighting are unimpressive. It's probably smart to take a good defensive perk like Determination over Dirty Fighting. 

 

The robe thing is counter-intuitive. I would have thought that medium armour with Armoured Grace was the way to go with this build. I was already considering dumping a couple points each from RES and CON, but with no armour that might make him too fragile.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Mack

[Mack]

Which is more likely hit overpenetration - a high pen weapon, or a normal pen weapon with two damage types? I've been thinking the latter, but input from beta players is appreciated.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Mack

[KDubya]

Which is more likely hit overpenetration - a high pen weapon, or a normal pen weapon with two damage types? I've been thinking the latter, but input from beta players is appreciated.

 

I think the best chance for overpenetrating is to get a critical hit for the +50% penetration.

 

In the case of two handed weapons a Morningstar is crush/pierce and 8 pen while an Estoc is pierce and 9 pen with both doing the same base damage. I think the Morningstar will do better in most circumstances due to the dual damage.

 

Another thing to consider is that basic weapons are only two penetration less than the armor piercing weapons which do less damage. An Estoc does 18 avg damage and a pike does 21. The Estoc does 16.7% less damage and best case the +2 penetration does +50% damage which becomes 33.3% more when the armor = Estoc penetration and +8.3% more damage when armor = Estoc penetration minus one. So basically there are two values of armor where the Estoc does more damage than a Pike, for every other armor value the Pike does better.

 

The variance for two handed are the closest at 16.7%, one handed slow (maces) are 23.1% less than battle axes, and stilettos are 20% less than hatchets.

 

The take away here is that its pretty much always better to just go for the more damaging weapon with the lower penetration rather than going for a lower damage high penetration weapon. If that is available in a dual damage type or it has accuracy so much the better.

[The Crimson]

The take away here is that its pretty much always better to just go for the more damaging weapon with the lower penetration rather than going for a lower damage high penetration weapon. If that is available in a dual damage type or it has accuracy so much the better.

cool, i was worried for greatswords and longswords since they have only 6 pen while estoc and mace have 9, do you think hammer is much worse than longsword? (13-19 6pen slash/pierce vs 11-15 8pen crush/pierce)

[KDubya]

 

The take away here is that its pretty much always better to just go for the more damaging weapon with the lower penetration rather than going for a lower damage high penetration weapon. If that is available in a dual damage type or it has accuracy so much the better.

cool, i was worried for greatswords and longswords since they have only 6 pen while estoc and mace have 9, do you think hammer is much worse than longsword? (13-19 6pen slash/pierce vs 11-15 8pen crush/pierce)

 

 

I didn't pick up on the 6 pen for swords

 

Swords are 16 avg and hammers are 13 so they're 23% behind. Each missing penetration is 25% malus. So at armor value 1,2,3,5, 6,11 and 12+ the sword is better. At armor = 4 the hammer is ahead by 7% due to overpenetration, at armor =7 the hammer is up by 2%, at armor = 8 the hammer is up by 27%, at armor = 9 the hammer is up by 27%, at armor = 10 the hammer is up by 2%.

 

Sword vs hammer is a lot closer than like axe vs hammer, other than the dual damage type as the one pen difference is given up by the 23% damage malus.

 

I like hammer over mace as the damage is the same and I like dual damage over one penetration.

 

But remember that this is DeadFire so the answer is always SABRE

[kmbogd]

Well, sabre seems to be optimal when looking only at the hit attack resolution, but if you look at the full distribution of outcomes it looks like using the club/dagger/rapier seems a bit better.