Weapon design and fighting

[JFutral]

Are all upgraded weapons essentially magical? One of the things that puzzle me is when any of my characters equip a non-proficient weapon and it is more accurate and does more damage than a proficient weapon.

 

So I was trying to justify this in my head. Okay, maybe it is because one is Fine and the other is basic. So I equip a Fine version of my proficient and the non-proficient is still more accurate and does more damage.

 

I first noticed this with the Fine Club from that wayward lagufaeth just southwest of the initial port town.

 

Then I realized that in PoE I even Fine and Exceptional enhancements were categorized as enchantments.

 

I admit that I am amused by players who are willing to give up an advantage for the sake of some arbitrary notion of balance. And I know, once one is in the thick of a fight there are other likely more important factors than ACC and DAM of proficient or non-proficient weapons.

 

But I can't for the life of me figure out why any non-magical weapon should ever offer higher ACC and/or DAM over a non-magical, non-proficient weapon. Of course I am thinking in terms of proficiency=training. Maybe that is not the case in this universe.

 

Also, I still contend that (at the very least) any fighter type should not suffer recovery from a proficient weapon. Any training would incorporate an attack to end either in a defensive position or set-up for the next strike.

 

Meh. Yeah, its all fantasy. This is the kind of stuff I think of when playing an RPG. I am less enamored by the math, although I know with a computer playing DM, math, ultimately, is the only arbiter that matters.

 

Joe

[theBalthazar]

For me proficient weapons could be much more.

 

Generally in video games we do not create hollow concepts.

Proficient weapon atm, is weird modal concept of Bonus/malus with very high values perfectly equal (+ / -), and it is all. Like +100 % recovery wtf : p

 

No real bonus behind this, behind the choice of the player. If i use sword and I haven't proficient = same effect than proficient weapon if I disable my modal.

 

And proficient only have a weird deal, with a big advantage and the same in negative. So... Ball in the center. All of this for that ? Not worth it actually. This system does not bring much in my opinion.

 

A more interesting approach would be :

 

Modal

65 % Advantage

35 % Disadvantage

 

+a little bonus of accuracy. Like +4. Others weapons still viable without proficient effect, because 4 is not revolutionnary.

 

And for stem the effect of "I use only one weapon", Allow 5 proficiency Level 1-20 (Except for the Devoted)

 

2 at level 1, (Case of shield + weapon, dual wielding etc)

1 at level 5,

1 at level 10,

the last level 15.

 

For the non-magic enhancement. Already partially exist :

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Crushing_Lash

Edited January 12, 2018 by theBalthazar

[JFutral]

One of the things I was wondering about is the role of Devoted related to Soulbounds. Soulbounds (at least used to) confer proficiency to the user as if they were proficient. How does that affect a Devoted? If they aren't proficient, can they bind and get the proficiency? If they are already proficient, is there added benefit? Or is it as if they weren't Devoted?

 

I'll have to check this out now. Dang. I try to be lazy, but then curiosity steps in and mucks it all up.

 

Joe

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

All Proficiency does is get you a modal with the weapon, if you aren't using a Devoted and don't have any abilities or talents(if they get put in) it otherwise doesn't make a difference. I'm fine with that if talents are in and some of them are about proficient weapons tbh, I just wish modals weren't so extreme. For example Savage Attack ends up being Savage Graze, Half-Sword is asking to be crit, and the recovery malus is pretty much casting slow on yourself.

[JFutral]

All Proficiency does is get you a modal with the weapon, if you aren't using a Devoted and don't have any abilities or talents(if they get put in) it otherwise doesn't make a difference. I'm fine with that if talents are in and some of them are about proficient weapons tbh, I just wish modals weren't so extreme. For example Savage Attack ends up being Savage Graze, Half-Sword is asking to be crit, and the recovery malus is pretty much casting slow on yourself.

 

But the question still remains, does the modal come from a supernatural ("essence") source or as a result of training?

 

Joe

[neotemplar]

I see modals as results of training, because their effects can be explained using real life physics, weapons don't get supernatural.

 

Like dagger was really used for parrying, mace used against armour, windmill strike being a real thing.

 

Of course some modals can be criticised from the real-world point of view, but in general they can be achieved with real life weaponry without any magic.  

 

Soulbound weapon bonuses are magical and based upon weapon being semi-sentient, like in some real-world legends (the Sword-in-the-Stone was able to detect the real throne heir).

 

So, being proficient is being able to use the weapon in an unusual way and do some tricks with it. Like IRL unusual knife holding, advanced rapid reload, etc. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

All Proficiency does is get you a modal with the weapon, if you aren't using a Devoted and don't have any abilities or talents(if they get put in) it otherwise doesn't make a difference. I'm fine with that if talents are in and some of them are about proficient weapons tbh, I just wish modals weren't so extreme. For example Savage Attack ends up being Savage Graze, Half-Sword is asking to be crit, and the recovery malus is pretty much casting slow on yourself.

 

But the question still remains, does the modal come from a supernatural ("essence") source or as a result of training?

 

Joe

 

Training except for implements which are magical in nature.

[ShakotanSolari]

But the question still remains, does the modal come from a supernatural ("essence") source or as a result of training?

 

Joe

 

Seeing as the names of the modals are mostly related to real-world striking techniques I would have to say the later. Even the word "proficiency" just has the connotation of a more mundane origin, it implies skill through training rather than something that can be attributed to some magical property.

 

Training except for implements which are magical in nature.

 

Actually, this raises some really interesting questions regarding the nature of how implements work in Pillars...

[JFutral]

I see modals as results of training, because their effects can be explained using real life physics, weapons don't get supernatural.

 

Like dagger was really used for parrying, mace used against armour, windmill strike being a real thing.

 

Of course some modals can be criticised from the real-world point of view, but in general they can be achieved with real life weaponry without any magic.  

 

Soulbound weapon bonuses are magical and based upon weapon being semi-sentient, like in some real-world legends (the Sword-in-the-Stone was able to detect the real throne heir).

 

So, being proficient is being able to use the weapon in an unusual way and do some tricks with it. Like IRL unusual knife holding, advanced rapid reload, etc. 

 

I would agree with you except for my original point of befuddlement that a non-proficient weapon can have better ACC and DAM over one's proficiency, and mundane upgrades like Fine and Exceptional are still considered "Enchantments", not simply enhancements. 

 

I'm okay with the answer being magical or supernatural sources of proficiency. Otherwise it makes no sense for my fighter to be able to wield a Fine club better than his proficient dagger, or my ranger who I selected Hunting Bow over War bow yet some how, when I finally bought a war bow could shoot with better ACC and DAM. If proficiency is simply training, then this has to change in my mind.

 

Joe

[neotemplar]

Well, I know some tricks with a certain civil-grade carbine at the shooting range, but still if they gave me a military-grade sniper rifle, it would indeed have more ACC and more DAM even in my hands, no matter I will take it for the second time in my life.

 

Modals are not about being better in standard usage, they are about unusual usage, as I see them.

 

Anyway, in this game even fighter's or barbarian's abilities are the results of magical soul energy, so you are free to explain almost every aspect via this soul energy usage.

[JFutral]

Well, I know some tricks with a certain civil-grade carbine at the shooting range, but still if they gave me a military-grade sniper rifle, it would indeed have more ACC and more DAM even in my hands, no matter I will take it for the second time in my life.

 

Modals are not about being better in standard usage, they are about unusual usage, as I see them.

 

Anyway, in this game even fighter's or barbarian's abilities are the results of magical soul energy, so you are free to explain almost every aspect via this soul energy usage.

 

I just wish Obsidian made it more apparent.

 

Your gun analogy is an interesting one. I don't shoot, but I know people who do. I thought it odd when they would say they are a better shooter than some guns, that shooting with certain other guns would make the shoot poorer. Maybe you understand this better than I do.

 

Joe

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I would agree with you except for my original point of befuddlement that a non-proficient weapon can have better ACC and DAM over one's proficiency, and mundane upgrades like Fine and Exceptional are still considered "Enchantments", not simply enhancements.

A few weapons have +5 Accuracy as an inherit bonus, some have higher base damage, and obviously the quality enchantments play a role. Proficiency isn't meant to imply mastery or focus on it's own in PoE2. If you want proficiency to affect accuracy, damage, or do anything but give you a modal you need to take the talent which afaik is only there for Fighters and Barbarians right now.

[BrettNLowe]

You have to remember that Pillars 1 harkens back to Infinity engine games, which are all based on DND. Yes, the ruleset is different, but you can draw a lot of parallels.

 

Accordingly, you can see that Fine/Exceptional/Superb are just replacements for +1/+2/+3 magical weapons. A Fine weapon increases accuracy by 4/100, and damage by 15%. A +1 enchantment on a 1-12 weapon increases accuracy by 1/20=5/100, and damage by 1/6.5=15.4%.