Two handed weapon comparison and analysis

[KDubya]

Since the medium speed one handed weapon besides the spear are bugged to fast speed I've tried working with only unbugged weapons.

 

The two handed weapons have three tiers of damage.

 

​Tier One base damage 19-25, Penetration 5

• Great Sword - 2 damage types, slash and pierce, Modal is more damage (+50%) at cost of accuracy (-20)
• Pike - increased reach, Modal is exposing enemy (-10 deflection for 10 seconds) at cost of damage (-50%)
• Quarterstaff - increased reach, accurate (+5), modal is +20 deflection at cost of recovery (+100%)

 

​Tier Two base damage 14-20, Penetration 7

 

• Polax - 2 damage types slash and crush, modal is extra engagement (+1) at cost of damage (-25%)
• Morningstar - 2 damage types crush and pierce, modal is -50% damage for -25 Fortitude for 10 seconds

 

​Tier Three base damage 11-16, Penetration 9

 

• Estoc - modal is penetration (+2) at cost of deflection (-20)

 

The disparities that jump out are:

1. Quarterstaffs get an extra bonus of accuracy in addition to gaining reach
2. Estocs do not get any inherent bonus or they are overly penalized in damage reduction

 

I'd suggest dropping the extra accuracy from the Quarterstaff or moving it down to Tier Two for reduced damage. I'd suggest moving the Estoc up to Tier Two for damage as +2 penetration is its 'thing' and it pays for the other +2 penetration with reduced damage just like the Morningstar and Polax do.

[AndreaColombo]

Subbing thread.

[Boeroer]

I also think that the estoc is kind of weird: I can live with the low base damage because it has high PEN and this can be very benefical for damage - especially when it comes to overpenetration. YOu could also argue that the narrow blade is great for PEN, but doesn't cause as much tissue damage as a bright blade would do.

 

But even lower damage for more PEN when using the modal is a bit bonkers. How do you inflict less damage with a blade that didn't change and now has even more penetration? Maybe because you target vulnerable spots in the armor where no vital organs are found? Don't know...

 

But lower attack speed I could understand better - you aim more careful in order to hit the weak spots and so on.

 

Sure, using realism is not what I normally do, so...

[dam]

I also think that the estoc is kind of weird: I can live with the low base damage because it has high PEN and this can be very benefical for damage - especially when it comes to overpenetration. YOu could also argue that the narrow blade is great for PEN, but doesn't cause as much tissue damage as a bright blade would do.

 

But even lower damage for more PEN when using the modal is a bit bonkers. How do you inflict less damage with a blade that didn't change and now has even more penetration? Maybe because you target vulnerable spots in the armor where no vital organs are found? Don't know...

 

But lower attack speed I could understand better - you aim more careful in order to hit the weak spots and so on.

 

Sure, using realism is not what I normally do, so...

 

Thing is, RP-wise, you're going to do that for almost every weapon, the "aim more carefully" bit.

And if every weapon offers the same modal, may as well remove them in the first place...

[KDubya]

I also think that the estoc is kind of weird: I can live with the low base damage because it has high PEN and this can be very benefical for damage - especially when it comes to overpenetration. YOu could also argue that the narrow blade is great for PEN, but doesn't cause as much tissue damage as a bright blade would do.

 

But even lower damage for more PEN when using the modal is a bit bonkers. How do you inflict less damage with a blade that didn't change and now has even more penetration? Maybe because you target vulnerable spots in the armor where no vital organs are found? Don't know...

 

But lower attack speed I could understand better - you aim more careful in order to hit the weak spots and so on.

 

Sure, using realism is not what I normally do, so...

 

The thing is that the Estoc pays extra for its penetration.

 

The Morning star, Great Sword and Polax have two damage types as their 'thing', just like Estocs have +2 penetration as theirs. Now Estocs, Polax and Morning Star pay a premium cost of less base damage for an additional +2 penetration, so far so good. Then Estoc take a further damage reduction to base damage for what reason .....?

[dam]

The thing is that the Estoc pays extra for its penetration.

 

The Morning star, Great Sword and Polax have two damage types as their 'thing', just like Estocs have +2 penetration as theirs. Now Estocs, Polax and Morning Star pay a premium cost of less base damage for an additional +2 penetration, so far so good. Then Estoc take a further damage reduction to base damage for what reason .....?

 

Either :

1/ the added penetration is deemed more powerful than mixed damage types

or

2/ the weapons have different speeds (or are meant to) ?

or

3/ possible oversight, possible future tuning

[KDubya]

 

The thing is that the Estoc pays extra for its penetration.

 

The Morning star, Great Sword and Polax have two damage types as their 'thing', just like Estocs have +2 penetration as theirs. Now Estocs, Polax and Morning Star pay a premium cost of less base damage for an additional +2 penetration, so far so good. Then Estoc take a further damage reduction to base damage for what reason .....?

 

Either :

1/ the added penetration is deemed more powerful than mixed damage types

or

2/ the weapons have different speeds (or are meant to) ?

or

3/ possible oversight, possible future tuning

 

 

The speeds are all the same.

 

I'm thinking it #3 an oversight and the Estoc should be bumped up in damage to the polax and Morningstar level.

[dam]

Hmmm, I seem to recall different 2h weapons had different speeds in POE1 as a matter of fact ?

 

I'm not quite sure, but it does ring a bell.

 

Like, some were average, some were slow...

 

Will double check during lunch.

[Boeroer]

Nope. All two handers and heavy one handers had actually the same attack speed despite their descriptions.

[JerekKruger]

I'm thinking it #3 an oversight and the Estoc should be bumped up in damage to the polax and Morningstar level.

 

Agreed. If it's not an oversight I think it should still be buffed to the damage of pollaxes and morningstars as, as you say, it currently seems to be getting a double disadvantage. 

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Since the medium speed one handed weapon besides the spear are bugged to fast speed I've tried working with only unbugged weapons.

 

The two handed weapons have three tiers of damage.

 

​Tier One base damage 19-25, Penetration 5

• Great Sword - 2 damage types, slash and pierce, Modal is more damage (+50%) at cost of accuracy (-20)
• Pike - increased reach, Modal is exposing enemy (-10 deflection for 10 seconds) at cost of damage (-50%)
• Quarterstaff - increased reach, accurate (+5), modal is +20 deflection at cost of recovery (+100%)

 

​Tier Two base damage 14-20, Penetration 7

 

• Polax - 2 damage types slash and crush, modal is extra engagement (+1) at cost of damage (-25%)
• Morningstar - 2 damage types crush and pierce, modal is -50% damage for -25 Fortitude for 10 seconds

 

​Tier Three base damage 11-16, Penetration 9

 

• Estoc - modal is penetration (+2) at cost of deflection (-20)

 

The disparities that jump out are:

1. Quarterstaffs get an extra bonus of accuracy in addition to gaining reach
2. Estocs do not get any inherent bonus or they are overly penalized in damage reduction

 

I'd suggest dropping the extra accuracy from the Quarterstaff or moving it down to Tier Two for reduced damage. I'd suggest moving the Estoc up to Tier Two for damage as +2 penetration is its 'thing' and it pays for the other +2 penetration with reduced damage just like the Morningstar and Polax do.

 

 

Ok, this is very interesting especially in light of the upcoming changes to the penetration system.

 

Right now, the Estoc does 40% less damage than the Greatsword, which leads to the counter-intuitive result that at AR 6, you'll actually be doing more damage with a greatsword than with an estoc, because under the upcoming graduated system it'll only be a -25% penalty at that AR.

 

That -25% penalty is right in line with the damage malus on the Poleax and Morningstar though. So it does seem like it would be a good idea to bump the Estoc up to that damage category, especially since the poleax and morningstar are both dual-damage-type and the Estoc is single-type.