A case for not adding general abilities to Proficiencies

[mostundesired]

This is a pretty bad solution. Weapon modals were already a limited idea, since most will only need or want 3 proficiencies, if any. I know I stopped paying attention after two.

 

Likely, people are going to stick with the passives in class and pick random proficiencies, while sticking to only a fraction of those weapons. They've gained something they don't want. Or they'll take actives they've no intention of using because the screen doesn't let you press next until you pick something. They've gained something they don't want.

 

In both cases, they've been forced to take something they had no interest in. It's the same exact problem as being forced to multiclass, but focused on single class abilities.

[Katarack21]

I mean, it's easy to say "just design nine new abilities that are balanced and properly fit the class!", But I don't think there's another answer.

Exactly. I'm not calling anybody lazy, not denigrating their work, not trying to criticize anybody. I know that building nine new passives for Fighters specifically would be extremely difficult and might not even be possible at this stage, with all the balancing that would ensue.

 

But from my players perspective, what I'm seeing is good, nuanced, interesting builds for multitudes of solo classes being sacrificed for the sake of fluffing out certain talent trees (not just fighter) with general talents that vaguely fit that classes theme. I feel like it's a relatively easy way to go about it from a design and coding perspective, because you don't have to spend all the time creating, testing, and balancing new abilities, and I totally understand why that option would be taken, but I don't enjoy what it's done to the experience of building a character.

[Aramintai]

I like that devs want to give fighter's passive abilities to other classes, because taking only a ****load of proficiencies you won't even use is indeed a bad design idea. But if fighter passive abilities are gonna be copied to talents I can see no other way to make fighters better than to create some new unique passives for them. Otherwise every fighter will be forced to take only active abilities, because passives will be in the talents anyway. 

[Lamppost in Winter]

I guess it's unlikely we'll get some cool general talents as well then? Probably a bit more work than making new Fighter passives, after all.

 

As much as I don't envy the work of coming up with new abilities for not just Fighter, but a lot of the passive-deficient classes, I can't imagine another solution that won't put out a large section of people.

[takamorisan]

Of course its complicated to develop nine new talents and even more with multiclass, so you want to avoid those new stuff being added to feel like a forced dip levels in Fighter(Sadly the current state right now) and at the same time build a gameplay that's interesting and not just flat positive math being added. Also they want to avoid adding new active talents because they don't want the class becoming some sort of melee wizard with a truckload of tricks to choose upon.(In my opinion it would be awesome to have this approach of being a more active class and you being able to choose stuff from a defensive to an offensive pool being able to have that unique fighting style)

Edited December 3, 2017 by takamorisan

[KDubya]

In the case of the second level leveling up choice if you dropped the level requirement for 'Into the fray' from tier three to tier two, that'd give you a choice between the active not chosen at creation and "into the fray". Or you could sucker take the passives. At the next level up there are more additional unique passives that you can choose from. You are only really trapped at second level. This is all for a pure Fighter.

 

A multi-class Fighter will be stuck with the same bad Fighter choice at level two and three but he does have the option to instead take abilities from their other class.

 

To me the easiest way to give Fighters some sort of a choice here is to make 'Into the Fray' available when they hit second level.

[MortyTheGobbo]

 

I mean, it's easy to say "just design nine new abilities that are balanced and properly fit the class!", But I don't think there's another answer.

Exactly. I'm not calling anybody lazy, not denigrating their work, not trying to criticize anybody. I know that building nine new passives for Fighters specifically would be extremely difficult and might not even be possible at this stage, with all the balancing that would ensue.

 

But from my players perspective, what I'm seeing is good, nuanced, interesting builds for multitudes of solo classes being sacrificed for the sake of fluffing out certain talent trees (not just fighter) with general talents that vaguely fit that classes theme. I feel like it's a relatively easy way to go about it from a design and coding perspective, because you don't have to spend all the time creating, testing, and balancing new abilities, and I totally understand why that option would be taken, but I don't enjoy what it's done to the experience of building a character.

 

 

They may have backed themselves into a corner with this one, yes. Giving those talents to fighter as passives was IMO a bad idea to begin with, even though it was easier to implement than new ones. Now that idea is bringing further consequences.

[Answermancer]

They may have backed themselves into a corner with this one, yes. Giving those talents to fighter as passives was IMO a bad idea to begin with, even though it was easier to implement than new ones. Now that idea is bringing further consequences.

Yes, this is my perspective. No disrespect to the devs, but I think giving these passives to Fighters was a lazy mistake, and now we're all just arguing about the consequences from different directions ("You're taking passives from Fighters!", "You're taking passives from everyone, and giving them to Fighters!", etc.)

[mostundesired]

Yes, this is my perspective. No disrespect to the devs, but I think giving these passives to Fighters was a lazy mistake, and now we're all just arguing about the consequences from different directions ("You're taking passives from Fighters!", "You're taking passives from everyone, and giving them to Fighters!", etc.)

Both of these are true, frankly. Locking the passive to Fighters (amongst others) was denying them of actually unique abilities, passive or otherwise. But it wasn't viewed that way, because at least they had a unique advantage.

 

Now they don't have that unique advantage, but everyone else can have their cake and eat it too. I think what's really the problem is putting these on the weapon proficiency page, because then it's nearly always the better choice, and you would use your ability point on something else. Except when there's not something else that you didn't already pass up on...

 

I think I like KDubya's suggestion of rearranging trees is a good idea. For example, there's a Fighter passive that gives accuracy when using a proficient weapon. Move that up to replace weapon passives (and/or whatever else) and suddenly there's options again.