Remove Restrictions and let this game breath

[Goddard]

Yeah I think it could be done and I remember seeing it all the time in these games to a lesser degree.  You go walking through a forest and they will have some foot prints show up with some internal dialog pop up text. 

 

I mean we constantly have quests, but these quests don't have to be limited to just doing skill checks for a hidden door, or opening a lock.  

 

Why aren't their skill checks to decipher tomes, or even just being able to have clues in the ultimate story revealed early that lead to shortcuts and different side quests.  

 

Dynamic systems make things more fun to me is my entire meaning behind using pre-buffing.  Some people say they don't like it because they personally created a formula of combat where they would constantly cast the same spells and that is fine, but I didn't do that and would say it isn't required.  Especially considering you have only a limited number of spells even more so in the Infinity Engine games.  Truly epic scrolls are expensive and rare and since you can actually account for ever single game item as opposed to a massively online multiplayer game it can be balanced much easier because you know in this land we only have 4 protection from undead scrolls and sometimes they were hard to find, or even cursed.  We had a HUGE difference in the casting system.  All spell casters now are more like Sorcerers if you compare it to IE.  With a mage, cleric, and druid you had specific spells you would put in your spell book and that is all you could cast.  Now all games seem to let you just cast a specific amount of any spell level.  I don't understand why almost all games have adopted this same thing.  Sword Coast Legends was even more like Diablo.

 

Automatically healing after a fight also seems strange to me.  All the poison that effected your body is gone.  No level drain.  It just limits variety using this type of system.  If an assassin attacked you with a poisoned blade but fell during battle you still might die after the fact.  My dog just got in a fight with a snake and got bitten in the fact and it swelled up.  She killed the snake, but she was hurt two days afterwards until the non-lethal venom left her system.

 

I would maybe have mages protected with stone skin or invisibility and then just normal stuff before combat if I got the feeling something intense was about to happen.  When you have to take pre-buffing into account it is more natural combat.  I think the concept of health and endurance is pretty cool though so not totally hating on everything.

 

Also if you think about the feat system and weapon specializations.  Why is it all games just copy that same idea is again something that doesn't make sense.  

 

Just because something is new doesn't always make it better.

 

Look at the Nexus 6 vs all the new google nexus and pixel phones.  :D jk

Edited October 18, 2017 by Goddard

[smjjames]

Why aren't their skill checks to decipher tomes, or even just being able to have clues in the ultimate story revealed early that lead to shortcuts and different side quests. 

 

There might actually be such skill checks in PoE2. The video in update 40 shows some passive skills like insight and history and one of Josh Sawyers teasers had some history skill related thing to an item in conversation. Those skills definetly open the possibility.

 

 

 

Automatically healing after a fight also seems strange to me.  All the poison that effected your body is gone.  No level drain.  It just limits variety using this type of system.  If an assassin attacked you with a poisoned blade but fell during battle you still might die after the fact.  My dog just got in a fight with a snake and got bitten in the fact and it swelled up.  She killed the snake, but she was hurt two days afterwards until the non-lethal venom left her system.

 

Seems to be a gameplay compromise since they wanted to change the health system from the way it was before.

[Goddard]

 

Why aren't their skill checks to decipher tomes, or even just being able to have clues in the ultimate story revealed early that lead to shortcuts and different side quests. 

 

There might actually be such skill checks in PoE2. The video in update 40 shows some passive skills like insight and history and one of Josh Sawyers teasers had some history skill related thing to an item in conversation. Those skills definetly open the possibility.

 

 

 

Automatically healing after a fight also seems strange to me.  All the poison that effected your body is gone.  No level drain.  It just limits variety using this type of system.  If an assassin attacked you with a poisoned blade but fell during battle you still might die after the fact.  My dog just got in a fight with a snake and got bitten in the fact and it swelled up.  She killed the snake, but she was hurt two days afterwards until the non-lethal venom left her system.

 

Seems to be a gameplay compromise since they wanted to change the health system from the way it was before.

 

Yeah since they decided not to have casting outside of combat you couldn't heal your party members with a spell after a fight, or quickly cast some poison neutralization.  Sounds like a limitation.

 

In a single player game time is always a factor because you never know when a party member will leave, or a quest would fall off and healing party members and resting had to be juggled to a degree.  Can't just sleep for a week to have all your characters heal because you know one of your party members is gonna leave. haha  Some NPCs were jerks and self centered and some were "nice". 

 

That video is funny by the way.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Goddard

[smjjames]

Party members don't randomly come and go in PoE, I don't know what you're talking about with not knowing when one of your party members will leave. Sounds like you're talking about multiplayer, not single player, and I suspect there may be some sarcasm in there.

[Valci]

I think a lot of stuff like healing post combat or using an antidote potion is redundant... In the sense that it is implied. If you had to you'd do it but it's a time waster... So many actions/clicks and time spent doing nothing to further the "plot" or continue exploring etc. In BG (which as I mentioned I'm currently replaying) I found myself abusing resting simply because wasting so many clicks on healing/neutralize poison and the like gets really old really fast. You need to select the healer, click on the casting icon, click on the spell then click on the target hero... And then wait for the casting animation to conclude. Rinse and repeat until everyone is topped off... I much prefer the streamlined version of modern games tbh and the health/endurance system was for me at least a nice touch. I don't know about anyone else but my gaming time is limited as it is... I'd rather not waste time unnecessarily.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Valci

[Goddard]

I think a lot of stuff like healing post combat or using an antidote potion is redundant... In the sense that it is implied. If you had to you'd do it but it's a time waster... So many actions/clicks and time spent doing nothing to further the "plot" or continue exploring etc. In BG (which as I mentioned I'm currently replaying) I found myself abusing resting simply because wasting so many clicks on healing/neutralize poison and the like gets really old really fast. You need to select the healer, click on the casting icon, click on the spell then click on the target hero... And then wait for the casting animation to conclude. Rinse and repeat until everyone is topped off... I much prefer the streamlined version of modern games tbh and the health/endurance system was for me at least a nice touch. I don't know about anyone else but my having time is limited as it is... I'd rather not waste time unnecessarily.

 

If that is the argument isn't everything redundant? :D

[smjjames]

Also, you CAN cast outside of combat, you're making no sense and seem to be going out of your way to be sarcastic atm.

[Valci]

 

If that is the argument isn't everything redundant? :D

 

 

In short ??? No. There are such things as quality of life improvements of which this is one. 

[Goddard]

 

 

If that is the argument isn't everything redundant? :D

 

 

In short ??? No. There are such things as quality of life improvements of which this is one. 

 

 

 

 

Yeah I think some examples of quality of life are intelligence of the game like clicking on a locked chest sends the best man for the job and traps, or picking up loot sends the closest in the party.  Things like that are quality of life, or having things sent to "stash" or infinity bag of holding.  

 

I don't think automatically healing, reviving, and removing poisons is quality of life.  That drastically changes game tactics.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Goddard

[Valci]

 

 

Yeah I think some examples of quality of life are intelligence of the game like clicking on a locked chest sends the best man for the job and traps, or picking up loot sends the closest in the party.  Things like that are quality of life, or having things sent to "stash" or infinity bag of holding.  

 

I don't think automatically healing, reviving, and removing poisons is quality of life.  That drastically changes game tactics.

 

 

For me at least it does nothing of the sort... I always had at least 1 cleric/druid in my party with heals and poison removal on hand... and the main character got poison removal as a special ability if you played as a "good" aligned character so you were guaranteed to have it when necessary. Besides antidotes were never in short supply. So all it did was add unnecessary clicks to the equation for me. I got nothing from it... Besides in PoE its endurance that regenerates not health which is a different resource... and personally i prefer the new system... makes the game much more streamlined...

[Wormerine]

I don't think automatically healing, reviving, and removing poisons is quality of life.  That drastically changes game tactics.

How does it change tactics? In both Pillars and Baldurs Gate after the battle you end up with full health. However in BG you have to spam rest button couple time before that happens. There is no limit to resting, there is no danger in resting (unless you are really low on health and some people could die in an ambush).

[Abel]

 

I don't think automatically healing, reviving, and removing poisons is quality of life.  That drastically changes game tactics.

How does it change tactics? In both Pillars and Baldurs Gate after the battle you end up with full health. However in BG you have to spam rest button couple time before that happens. There is no limit to resting, there is no danger in resting (unless you are really low on health and some people could die in an ambush).

 

 

 

Unless, like me, you don't spam the rest button. I never rest in a dungeon in BG, and i never backtrack to rest unless the dungeon is completed. It was ok to start next fight in a dungeon with 1 of my character having 1/120 hp (they would just stagger behind), if i hadn't anymore healing or spells. It just needed to manage correctly your spell pools. I liked the way you could pay at temple to get healed too. I often used this feature, since it was stupid in my opinion to rest more than 2 times in a row in an inn (you can't possibly sleep more than 16 hours, even if exhausted). Playing like this (meaning, not abusing the game rules) felt extremely satisfying for me. I guess you should not assume everyone abuse of the game systems.

 

But even, aside from that, just being healed like this after a combat, or after a nap under a tree just feels wrong to me. To the point that it really hinders my fun with the game.

 

I like the feature in BG that displayed the time passed since the start of the adventure. Since i did not spam the rest button, it felt pretty immersive, too. Actually, where is the fun in spaming the rest button at all? i don't understand. I barely ever use camping supplies in Pillars 1. Would i really take a nap in a dungeon, where i can't be sure of what crawls next door? Does not make sense. Or will i really battle this dragon? Have i some death wish? My characters would need some deep reasons, deeply etched motivations.

 

I don't play BG or Pillars like a hack n slash. So no, BG was not the same.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Abel

[injurai]

If some sort of recovery is free, and the only cost is your time, then it should be automatic. But usually you want something with a cost, and it's up to you when to manage the resources/cost with whatever action. The game is the choices and management, so automatic recovery should be seen as a way of starting each battle somewhat fresh. But I wouldn't call that a quality of life feature either. Qol is more making something that is manual, minimally tedious for what it is.

[Valci]

/snip

I don't play BG or Pillars like a hack n slash. So no, BG was not the same.

Sorry but imposing artificial restrictions on myself doesn't cut it for me. I play BG (and any game) the way it was intended. BG was designed to let me rest at any time (almost) with the risk of getting ambushed... That's the way it was intended. I'll increase the difficulty sure, but purposely NOT using a game feature that was designed to work in a certain way? Not for me. Same reason why I'll probably never play this type of game solo. I know you can beat it solo... But it was designed as a party based game... So I play it as such (and always with max. allowed party size). Some people enjoy that sort of stuff but that doesn't mean developers should change the way a game is designed to cater specifically to that group of people.

 

Now, if I had an option in BG for my healers to auto-cast healing post combat until everyone was full (or they ran out of spells) I would probably have rested less, but I don't have time to waste on unnecessary clicks.

 

As for this idea that you wouldn't rest in a dungeon or backtrack in order to rest... I think it's hogwash. It's much more believable to me that after my party spent hours fighting hordes of monsters and clearing a level that they would find a relatively safe place on the level and rest a while taking turns on guard duty rather then push on and on ignoring the built up fatigue that swinging a sword would bring. How is that less realistic then your character proceeding on with an arm hacked off, bleeding out on the brink of death but refusing to find a place to make camp and patch themselves up?! Hell, even the healthy ones would need to rest their sword arm if we're going for realism (which the fatigue system in these games does not).

 

So yes, unless you intentionally played the game differently then how it was designed BG was virtually the same...

Edited October 19, 2017 by Valci

[Abel]

As for this idea that you wouldn't rest in a dungeon or backtrack in order to rest... I think it's hogwash. It's much more believable to me that after my party spent hours fighting hordes of monsters and clearing a level that they would find a relatively safe place on the level and rest a while taking turns on guard duty rather then push on and on ignoring the built up fatigue that swinging a sword would bring. How is that less realistic then your character proceeding on with an arm hacked off, bleeding out on the brink of death but refusing to find a place to make camp and patch themselves up?! Hell, even the healthy ones would need to rest their sword arm if we're going for realism (which the fatigue system in these games does not).

 

So yes, unless you intentionally played the game differently then how it was designed BG was virtually the same...

 

 

 

I expected someone to say this. And your point is fair. If i remember correctly, there weren't many multi level dungeons in BG. But still, there is a HUGE difference between doing it once for the sake of helping the injured suffering in the party and spaming rest.

 

And i fail to see your point when you say that since there is no cooldown or whatever for the rest button, this RPG was meant to allow spaming rest as a core gameplay mechanic. I would merely say that the game did not punish the abuses.

[Guest 4ward]

 

if the player wants to have a true rest cycle and for the most part rest only when the party is fatigued, then he should play a sorcerer in BG2. The ‚Vancian casting‘ isn‘t the real problem, it‘s the progress of casters. There‘s no better example of that than the comparison between a mage and a sorcerer in BG2. Also, that the party doesn‘t fully heal automatically is a plus for gameplay IMO, because there‘s resource management with health and that can be better finetuned by the player than injuries. Also, with injuries you don't fight that well anymore whereas lacking full health isn't hindering you.

 

In BG2 i look up the combat log and react as i find appropriate, sometimes drinking potions during battle or moving my chars away from each other if someone is targeted with a disabling spell so that the spell effect doesn‘t jump over to the other chars. I deal with the consequences and the more guys i have the more chance i have to turn a battle around. I find excessive prebuffing unfun (though of course you can simply save after prebuffing) as much as resting too often and there‘s ways to go around that and enjoy the game.

 

So rather than cutting these things off, they should be annoying (which is the case in BG2), because as i said elsewhere we all have different playstyles. How much a player rests, how much he prebuffs is subjective and adds additional layers of diificulty which a slider doesn‘t provide. I think it‘s a pity Obsidian decided to go per-encounter and add injuries as resource management. When one single member is heavy injured you need to rest because of him. As i said in BG2 with the sorcerer i rest when members are fatigued, so it‘s a pity they gave up on long-term fatigueness. Hopefully there‘ll be protection spells and sequencers for casters. Sawyer did promise to look into adding sequencers during the pillars1 beta. The reason for protections/invisibility in BG2 is that the caster cannot be targeted and/or interrupted so that he can launch his spells until hurt/interrupted.

[Valci]

Well they did punish it... You can be ambushed. But aside from that it works as intended. That's why I have the option to have healing spells cast on rest. Otherwise they'd have given me an option to have healing outside of combat cast quickly which didn't include resting to function. Since that is not the case I can only assume that the game as it is functions as intended... Using a function of the game as provided by the developers (no mods, console crap and such) cannot be classified as abuse in my view...

 

@4ward

For me casting or spell availability wasn't the issue. Over the whole of my recent play through in BG1 EE I rarely felt the need to rest because even the mages in my party rarely cast any spells. When I wanted to go through mobs quickly I just cast 3 fireballs simultaneously... 1 from each of the 2 "the one gift" (fireball necklace) that I found and one from a wand of fire... No spells expended from the spellbook at all. I'd cast the odd cloudkill for tougher monsters, greater malison or lower resistance sometimes... But for the most part I didn't need to. Healing post combat after the tougher fights just took too long so I'd often just rest - 1 click... Simple enough. Sometimes i used potions cause even those work faster then healing and i can have each of my characters simultaneously drink one... Or a temple if available at the end of a dungeon. Standing there wasting clicks and time waiting for each individual spell to be cast is pointless and does nothing to further the game for me.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Valci

[Wormerine]

For me casting or spell availability wasn't the issue. Over the whole of my recent play through in BG1 EE I rarely felt the need to rest because even the mages in my party rarely cast any spells. When I wanted to go through mobs quickly I just cast 3 fireballs simultaneously...

That’s very similar to how I played those games after my initial “getting to know the rules” playthrough. But isn’t that a big design flaw? In BG spellcasters (especially mages) ranged from useless to ridiculously overpowered depending if you cast spells or not. In my case, they would hang back and do nothing unless it was a major fight, while melee fighter and archer would deal with most mobs. PoE has similar issue though with wands and sceptres they at least contribute. They rarely used high spells even on PotD. This encouraging of not using characters in your party is a big flaw. Considering that limited resting (at least in BG) is an optional challenge not supported by implemented mechanics I really can’t agree with describing it as resource management. It’s like saying a shooter requires you to co serve ammo, while at the same time having a button which immediately replenishes all ammo whenever you want.

 

There are two ways I can think of that would solve a problem - add to the game genuine resource management. Spells and other items&skills are limited and when you go adventuring you have to be smart on when you use it. Or encourage players to freely use skills at their disposal when entering combat. PoE2 is going for the second option. I like that though there are few warning light in my head: does that mean all spells will be less impactful, as being able to cast high lvl spell in every encounter in previous games would make them really easy. I was also worried about encounters changing into spellspamfests but with limited spell per encounter it should be an issue.

[smjjames]

PoE2 is kind of going for a hybrid option, both going for free use (no per-rest limitations) of spells and abilities while having a resource pool of sorts.

 

And yes, you can use spells and abilities outside of combat, despite goddards insistence that they aren't in PoE2.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

For example what is the logic of not being able to drink a potion or cast a spell before a big fight that logically to the characters is imminent.

Hmm, because players would start prebuffing before every 2nd fight. Which could lead to two possible outcomes:

- the game becomes too easy. Obsidian buffs enemies. Prebuffing becomes almost a must, and basically a chore.

- the buffs are nerfed, because you no longer have to choose between casting a damaging spell or a buff instead of it during combat, i.e. the cost of casting a buff becomes lower, and thus it's effect is being reduced to match it.

 

 

And I can't resist my urge to add:

Because pre-buffing was tedious, like watching paint dry while you're mechanically clicking more or less the same spell buttons. I'd rather do any such combat tactics while the fighting is taking place. 

 

EDIT: I just realized that you've already made that point: chore indeed.

Edited October 19, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[Goddard]

 

I don't think automatically healing, reviving, and removing poisons is quality of life.  That drastically changes game tactics.

How does it change tactics? In both Pillars and Baldurs Gate after the battle you end up with full health. However in BG you have to spam rest button couple time before that happens. There is no limit to resting, there is no danger in resting (unless you are really low on health and some people could die in an ambush).

 

 

In Infinity Engine games it definitely didn't heal you after a fight and it didn't remove any negative effects until they ran out normally and things like level drain from vampires required you to see a cleric or temple.

 

In fact if you tried resting with poison and your character was low on life that character would probably die.  All the effects of fighting didn't just disappear because the fighting was done.

[Goddard]

 

 

For example what is the logic of not being able to drink a potion or cast a spell before a big fight that logically to the characters is imminent.

Hmm, because players would start prebuffing before every 2nd fight. Which could lead to two possible outcomes:

- the game becomes too easy. Obsidian buffs enemies. Prebuffing becomes almost a must, and basically a chore.

- the buffs are nerfed, because you no longer have to choose between casting a damaging spell or a buff instead of it during combat, i.e. the cost of casting a buff becomes lower, and thus it's effect is being reduced to match it.

 

 

And I can't resist my urge to add:

Because pre-buffing was tedious, like watching paint dry while you're mechanically clicking more or less the same spell buttons. I'd rather do any such combat tactics while the fighting is taking place. 

 

EDIT: I just realized that you've already made that point: chore indeed.

 

 

That suggests your character is static and fixed and you never got new spells, potions, fighting a different enemy that required different tactics.  

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

 

 

That suggests your character is static and fixed and you never got new spells, potions, fighting a different enemy that required different tactics.  

 

No, that's another discussion altogether. The point made is that pre-buffing is boring, time-consuming, repetitive, and not to mention often based on knowledge garnered from meta-gaming.

In fact, I delineated pre-buffing as "such combat tactics", and those taking place before combat are just as liable to routine repetition of actions as those taking place before.

[smjjames]

on the whole subject of pre-buffing, shouldn't it be something that you choose to do and not forced to do because the enemy is also prebuffed? I get that goddard likes to do pre-buffing*, but his original point four pages back is to have choices. Pre-buffing before a boss fight makes complete sense, or when tackling a tough dungeon, but one might not feel the need to do it for regular fights.

 

*Not entirely clear on that, or maybe it's a more situational thing. Seems to also be a discussion between older games and newer ones. Never played Baldurs Gate and other similar games which had pre-buffing required or something along the lines of that, so, I don't have the experience there.

Edited October 20, 2017 by smjjames

[Abel]

on the whole subject of pre-buffing, shouldn't it be something that you choose to do and not forced to do because the enemy is also prebuffed? I get that goddard likes to do pre-buffing*, but his original point four pages back is to have choices. Pre-buffing before a boss fight makes complete sense, or when tackling a tough dungeon, but one might not feel the need to do it for regular fights.

 

*Not entirely clear on that, or maybe it's a more situational thing. Seems to also be a discussion between older games and newer ones. Never played Baldurs Gate and other similar games which had pre-buffing required or something along the lines of that, so, I don't have the experience there.

 

BG never had pre buffing required. It's just that many people abused prebuffing because they could do it, and try now to make others believe it was required, and thus, boring. Funny enough