Cipher - new console player help

[Samugol]

What is the order of talents you would pick?  I am having a hard time deciding now. I know I'm taking combat recovery first but then.... there are just so many cool talents....

I have an idea but I would like to hear your take on it Boeroer.  

[Dr <3]

Late to the party, i wanted just say that you can go even for 3 res and autocast on yorself vampire shield before every fight ( so you gain +25 def for only -2 res). Of course interruptions will be awful, so potion of spirit shield, a priest with holy meditation (or later crowns for the faithful), winding path amulet, belt of chimes or celebrant gloves all are your friend.

And remember to eat!

Such chiper could gain great advantages from svef (ab)use --> +15 attack speed, +0,5 movespeed -4 res; and carow golan +20 reflex, +20% focus gain ( i think that +10 deflection became suppressed by the vampiric shield).

 

Edit: talent order

#1 biting whip

#2 vet rec

#3 weapon style / draing whip

#4 whatever

Edited October 11, 2017 by Dr <3

[Samugol]

Thanks :D The items you mentioned seem great. I really like the amulet, gloves are also cool(but I really want to get those speedy ones), I definitely plan to use consumables and such.

I however do not want to dump RES all the way down to 3, I was never a big MIN - MAX guy. Also I like my guy to reflect myself a bit. So I do gymnastics - DEXTERITY :D 
I go to college INT... and so on. It just feels wrong to dump the stat all the way just because it is preferable by the game engine. 

 

Also, I like your order of talents. I'm gonna take combat recovery first though, because I always have a problem with those couple of bandits before reaching gilded vale :D 

 

Also, consumables should be something that is saved for a tougher fight. I really do not want to rely on a spirit potion for EVERY battle.

 

[Boeroer]

My talent order would be (I guess):

 

- Veteran's Recovery

- Weapon Focus (in my opinion it leads to more damage and thus focus in the early game than the alternatives - esp. with a two hander)

- Outlander's Frenzy (+25% speed with a two hander is a multiplcative damage bonus instead of an additive)

- Biting Whip

- Draining Whip

- Two Handed Style

- Apprentice's Sneak

- Savage Attack

[mosspit]

Oh the order of talents is not set in stone, the only thing I am sure about is the combat recovery is the first one. I really like to be more survivable. I completely agree that cipher's intended role is to be the damage dealer/crowd controller/debuffer (and in a nice well balanced party he does not need combat recovery or heavy armor for that matter). But I just like combat recovery so much :D It makes almost any character a lot more survivable, especially in heavier armor. And I really wanna be the vanguard of the group up in enemy faces. Giving orders from the front lines.

 

And considering I am on trial of iron, better safe than sorry :D 

 

Also, I agree with you that taking weapon focus talents early is smart. I could take the cooler ones (biting whip) later on, to have some sense of progression.

Just so you know, my recommendations to you for a Cipher were also based on Trial of Iron mode. I basically sticked to ToI after my 3rd playthrough.

 

Hmmm so a Death Knight appearance? He Carries Many Scars should be nice then? It also has passive regen.

 

And on ToI I find although regen is nice, Tidefall's regen should be sufficient. It depends on how you use your Cipher. IMO, it might be better to prioritize taking up other passives like Bear Fortitude after your dmg talents. I find it annoying and even dangerous if the Cipher is proned/stunned.

[Samugol]

For a millionth time thanks :D that is pretty much what I thought. I like draining whip and biting whip, but taking activated abilities LATER seems lame, because you do not get to enjoy them for most of the game. So the only conundrum I had, was whether take Weapon Focus or Biting whip second. And it seems you, Dr <3 and me agree on that.  

 

EDIT: Mosspit, I knew from the way you were writing, that you definitely knew your stuff. Your comment was very insightful and definitely made me settle on my final idea. Thanks for the advise on the "death knight" armor :D I thought I would just wing it, since you can change the armor color within the game (so anything that looks good in black :D, even the starting brigandine looks good in black). It also made me happy that someone has already made a cipher ToI run with a Tidefall cipher. That just me super sure that not only it is gonna be viable but super fun as well. Even though I'm not gonna be as fast as your cipher....but maybe a bit sturdier in plate  ,

Edited October 11, 2017 by Samugol

[mosspit]

Thanks for your kind words

[Lampros]

Thank you so much :D You are awesome.

 

Would you also post a stat spread for 

 

a) Plate wearing dual stilleto cipher.

 

b) Plate wearing great sword cipher.

 

c) I was thinking of shield bearing not so full plate armor cipher (for even better survivability). Would it generate enough damage/focus? What stat/weapon would you advise?

 

BTW: awesome advice, I'm just trying to figure out the coolest way to go, since I'm sure everything you said is super viable.

 

I agree Boerer is awesome!

 

Thank you so much for all the help.

 

I have decided to go with a two-handed (still not sure if great sword or estoc) in plate armor (if I roll a death godlike definitely the sanguine armor, cause of the aesthetics) and try to boost the attack speed through means available withing the game (such as speed enchants, the cool berserk talent you have suggested, powers and maybe even some potions or scrolls). I'm not sure if I hit 0 recovery, but quite frankly I do not care that much. Two handed is just cooler in my eyes. so I'm willing to be a bit sub-optimal.  

 

I do not know how up-to-date it is, but there is a PoE attack speed calculator here: https://naijaro.github.io/poe-speed-calculator/

 

On the basis of what that shows me, you will see how inefficient 2H builds are in fact - and the more so if you rely on-crit weapons the way I do. Sure you can go obscenely high Dexterity, go naked, etc., but there is so much opportunity cost involved there.

 

With a melee cipher you might consider getting the Apprentice's Sneak Attack talent, since you'll have so many CC powers that can make sneak attacks possible.

 

Apprentice's Sneak Attack is so nice; I take it on all my DPS and quasi-DPS characters.

[Boeroer]

It is up to date. It's from MaxQuest and not that old. Since MaxQuest made it there were no changes to attack speed mechanics (or items/abilities/potions) that I know of.

 

The only speed buff that's not in it is Spelltongue's Time Siphon (gets suppressed by most other speed abilites anyway).

[Samugol]

Wow. When I see the frames it makes me doubt my two hander approach.

[Boeroer]

Two handers have the same attack speed as heavy one handers (attack animation and also recovery). Only the light one handed weapons have faster attack animation and recovery - but they also have the lowest base damage of all weapons and thus need some dmg modifiers in order to overcome DR properly.

 

Cipher's late power Time Parasite is actually pretty cool with Two Handers because it lets you attack with very low or even zero recovery which then is the best dps option. Also some DEX helps with the longer attack animation.    

[Samugol]

Well, I crunched the numbers and (considering time parasite + durganized stuff in every assumption below).

 

You are right about Two handers being the best DPS with very low/no recovery. However, because I am dead set on wearing heavy armor NO recovery is only achievable with the gloves of swift action (which can be troublesome to get since it is a random loot) + speed enchant on a weapon. And because I really want to use tidefall, NO recovery is impossible. 

That being said, the recovery in heavy armor + tidefall with the gloves of swift action (if you are lucky to get them is about 0.5s . Does it decrease DPS? well of course (almost 50%actually because instead of attacking about once every 1s you attack about once every 1.5s) but the survivability + cool factor outweigh this. Not to mention that attacking extremely quickly in a succession makes your character look like a Duracel bunny on steroids. This has also very little impact on actual casting (if you wait 0s or 0.5s before you cast is like nothing), because you are not going to be auto-attacking all the time. 

The thing is I am not really worried about killing my enemy in 20s vs 30s, but rather being stunned/proned for several seconds while several mobs go to town on me. When the stun ends I wanna be alive and relatively OK (even if I have 30% health, I might be able to CC mobs, heal through tidefall draining or something....)

For the last couple of years I have played (and finished  ) games on IronMan only, even those that do not support the IronMan mode per se (Dragon age series, fire emblem, fallout series etc. ) The most dangerous situations are when something unexpected happens. That is when things start to fall apart (the last moment I can recall was in XCom 2 towads the end, when two of my best damage dealers got panicked, died and everything went to hell, could not recover from the loss of my best troops and lost a few missions later). 

So if I come across as nonsensical, paranoid or just plain out sick in the head it is because of that. Most people do not play IronMan so they naturally care about HIGHEST DPS, or quickest way to do things, but this approach usually leads to quick death and frustration. 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Samugol

[Boeroer]

Yes, with the Blade of the Endless Paths you would achieve 0 recovery, but not with Tidefall. Tidefall's damage is still better (and of course there's draining), but the focus gain would be better with the Blade otEP.

 

The only other two hander with speed is Llawran's Stick - but I guess that is not what you are looking for.

[Samugol]

Naaah if it were between a quarterstaff and an estoc, I would definitely go for estoc (it is not like I do not like it, it is a cool long sword with a pointy end) :D I like Tidefall because of the lifedrain. Like I said, it does not have to be perfect and Tidefall's draining goes so well with the theme of the build. Combat recovery + high might is MORE HEALTH, Skull looks cool/evil and more might is MORE HEALTH, those boots you have suggested(cannot recall the name but they have that consecrated ground thingy) is MORE HEALTH, survival bonus means MORE HEALTH and guess what. Tidefall with lots of damage buffs and draining means MORE HEALTH.... I am gonna be the sturdiest damage dealer in the party :D with a sword that drains the life itself from my enemies. You have already helped me more than enough man. I am really looking forward to playing this. Especially since I do not have to go neither to WORK nor SCHOOL tomorrow :D I can actually start playing today.

 

Also Tidefall has dual damage type which is more versatile. Not to mention I somehow do not believe that FOCUS gain is going to be a problem... it was extremely manageable from the few moments I spent with a cipher. I cannot imagine it would be a problem with all those damage boosting talents/items + draining whip. The other thing I might do is not to actually take the weapon focus talent early and wait until I get both weapons, so I can play around with them and see which one suits me better(looks, gameplay, lore). 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Samugol

[mosspit]

Btw I wanted to just to give you a heads up since you are doing ToI. Gloves of Swift Action is an RnG drop so you might not come across one in your playthrough. There is loot table manipulation you can do to get the drop, but it is a little tedious in my opinion. Or you can console it in, but I have a feeling you might not want to do it.

Edited October 12, 2017 by mosspit

[Samugol]

I am on a console.... sooo I guess no console (see what I did there? :D). 

[mosspit]

Hahaha touché!

[Boeroer]

It's really not understandable why you can't loot the plate armor of (Ancient) Death Guards (you have to use the console, bah!). It looks so nice:

 

Excuse my bad graphics - I'm running PoE on a 5-year-old laptop...

Edited October 12, 2017 by Boeroer

[Lampros]

You are right about Two handers being the best DPS with very low/no recovery. However, because I am dead set on wearing heavy armor NO recovery is only achievable with the gloves of swift action (which can be troublesome to get since it is a random loot) + speed enchant on a weapon. And because I really want to use tidefall, NO recovery is impossible. 

 

 

In case you did not know, "random loot" is in fact not quite "random." Particular items spawn on particular dates, so you can guarantee everything you want:

 

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Random_loot

 

Btw I wanted to just to give you a heads up since you are doing ToI. Gloves of Swift Action is an RnG drop so you might not come across one in your playthrough. There is loot table manipulation you can do to get the drop, but it is a little tedious in my opinion. Or you can console it in, but I have a feeling you might not want to do it.

 

Well, I do not use console and do "time" my random loot, and it i not so bad - unless your screen load time is awful.

[Samugol]

Maaan that looks soooo awesome..... (even though the skull is a bit bigger than I though). So you are saying I will not be able to look like that....That just sucks....
Are there any other menacing looking helmets?  I like some of the horned ones :D and black brigandine also looks the part. 

BTW: for anyone who might be interested I ran a damage comparison of Tidefall vs Blade of the Endless Paths (BotEP) in FULL PLATE:

 

1. When you reach 0 recovery withe BotEP vs best possible recovery with TIDEFALL

 

about 20-25% more damage for BotEP

 

2. When you do not use time parasite, it is THE SAME

 

this was calculated while completely ignoring DR, which BTW is better for Tidefall, because it has that wounding thingy which is raw damage (I thought this would go to estoc because of the DR penetration)

if someone wants to see the calculations sure, but I wrote it on paper and I really did not feel like writing it all down, it is mostly similar to this thread: 

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/92266-tidefall-vs-blade-of-the-endless-paths-on-fighter/

 

so considering TIdefall is obtainable earlier, has more damage types and heals you... it is clearly a superior choice for me (not to mention that it looks a bit more worn which gives it a more evil look)

 

EDIT: @Lampros, the gloves of swift action are great but I am sure that I will be able to find something that is also adequate, such as Mourning gloves, without going through such lenghts.

 

EDIT: actually scratch this calculation, it only works if wounding on tidefall stacks, if it does not, it is not true and I honestly do not know if it stacks with itself

Edited October 12, 2017 by Samugol

[Samugol]

Boerer, would you also post an ingame picture of BotEP vs Tidefall, it came to a point I am so undecided about those two that I am willing to have a vote off base on styles alone. Hell, you tell me which one to go for and that is the one I will go for, this is as much yours build as it is mine at this point :D

EDIT: only if you feel like it, you by no means have to, it's just you have started to post pics....which made me hungry for more :D

Edited October 12, 2017 by Samugol

[Boeroer]

Drake's Bell:

 

The Wind's Arm:

 

Grey Sleeper:

 

Exceptional Pollaxe:

 

Tidefall :

 

Blade of the Endless Paths:

[Boeroer]

And my favorite:


Firebrand:

Edited October 12, 2017 by Boeroer

[mosspit]

Sick! Btw elemental lashes will change the appearance of the weapons too.

[Boeroer]

Yes, also hater enchtantments like Beast Slaying (look at Drake's Bell). The red glow is from Beast Slaying.