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Do most people prefer "spellsword" builds for casters?


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I noticed - to my surprise - that a lot of caster builds I have seen here are "spellsword" builds where the casters are toting a 1H and a shield (and sometimes even dual wield or reach weapon wield). The same seems to be true of the builds I found here:

 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=416939844

 

I am really puzzled about these builds: To begin with, wouldn't having so many "melee" characters cause a melee congestion? I already had to give one of my three melee characters a reach weapon to alleviate the issue, and I cannot imagine having all my casters go melee as well. Or is it that these spellsword builds are really not melee but equip shields (and the corresponding talent) for defensive purposes? Or are they very specialized "solo" builds?

 

Someone please explain to me why there are so many these seeming hybrid casters - and what benefits you get out of it relative to the traditional ranged caster builds.

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Most of those builds are focused on defense and having a caster always prepared to cast. A lot of the builds in this forum are focused on solo play and/or interesting item/spell combinations so the traditional ranged caster builds, while powerful, don't have as many topics dedicated to them.

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A wizard blast build ( ranged with a implement or kalakoths blight spell + blast) is extremly easy to build and to use, so didn't require an accurate guide i guess. Anyway you can search for the "hurtstacker" build from Boeroer that maximalize an implement wizard.

 

Most other build uses sword+ shield just for the huge boost in deflection and reflex. You are not supposed to hit anyone with your sword since you will be busy casting op spells, but small shield + hatchet give you huge defence boost that always helps

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Because gishes have a large fanbase.

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Yes. A ranged caster like wizard with implement is rel. straightforward and doesn't need a build description.

 

In this forum you will most likely find tricky, funny or special builds which are viable nonetheless. Some of them are especially powerful. Some of them are "only" more fun to play than the generic xy classbuild.

 

Wizards with summoned weapons for example are both: fun and powerful. You basically spare a lot of spells (you only need one or two casts - weapon and a buff or debuff to be effective in a fight). And the weapons are really good.

Wizard with weapon and shield has some nice synergies on the defensive side: shield, Arcane Veil and Wizard's Double and such things stack pretty nicely.

Edited by Boeroer
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@OP: As the other posters have mentioned, casters if performing their caster roles should be either prepping their spells, executing their spells or be in recovery after. During which, ranged weapons have very little use, with the exception of stat gains. A weapon and shield setup (hatchet and small shield) on the other hand will still benefit by giving deflection. Coupled with the solid Weapon and Shield talent, you get even more deflection and also reflex bonus too. And you can always put W&S on swap while you use a ranged weapon in the event the caster is not casting spells for whatever reason.

 

I have done multiple playthroughs with predominately melee classes. 6/6, 5/6 etc. Currently Im doing a 4/5 one with a melee Skaen priest (dual stilettos with Prey the Weak), melee Cipher (dual sabres), melee retaliation monk, melee Eder (2H offtank), gun ranger (with dps melee wolf).

 

Yes corridors will be problematic, but I think there are more instances of open space encounters than narrow corridors. And I also try to move the battle to areas with more open space (not fighting directly at a doorway for example). It basically depends on the playstyle you prefer I guess. For me, I dislike depending on bottlenecks in a party playthrough so I naturally favour open spaces which is more suited for melee characters. Mid late game, classes also get mobility and positional skills that can help.

 

But I will admit that it is not perfect and involves more micro. It also exposes pathing issues with the game. All which I can live with.

Edited by mosspit
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Most of those builds are focused on defense and having a caster always prepared to cast. A lot of the builds in this forum are focused on solo play and/or interesting item/spell combinations so the traditional ranged caster builds, while powerful, don't have as many topics dedicated to them.

 

 

A wizard blast build ( ranged with a implement or kalakoths blight spell + blast) is extremly easy to build and to use, so didn't require an accurate guide i guess. Anyway you can search for the "hurtstacker" build from Boeroer that maximalize an implement wizard.

 

Most other build uses sword+ shield just for the huge boost in deflection and reflex. You are not supposed to hit anyone with your sword since you will be busy casting op spells, but small shield + hatchet give you huge defence boost that always helps

 

 

Wizard with weapon and shield has some nice synergies on the defensive side: shield, Arcane Veil and Wizard's Double and such things stack pretty nicely.

 

So I guess the shield is there not to melee but to give him higher survivability. He's still almost predominantly a caster. So ultimately you trade some ranged auto-

attack damage in favor of greater survivability. If so, I might actually pursue this path instead, because the implement damage was pretty negligible up to level 6. (Does it get better later?) But then, my Might was only like 3, as focused on CC and survivability.

 

Yes corridors will be problematic, but I think there are more instances of open space encounters than narrow corridors. And I also try to move the battle to areas with more open space (not fighting directly at a doorway for example). It basically depends on the playstyle you prefer I guess. For me, I dislike depending on bottlenecks in a party playthrough so I naturally favour open spaces which is more suited for melee characters. Mid late game, classes also get mobility and positional skills that can help.

 

 

Do you use a "puller" to bring enemies to open spaces then? And if so, who pulls and how does the puller avoid getting focused down before he gets to safety? I understand the principle of stacking movement speed to avoid melees, but couldn't you still get nuked down?

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Oh, I forgot to ask about these "spellswords" - or really any casters in general:

 

I have now read tons of posts about how folks at harder difficulties stack tons of buffs - 3 or 4 or even more - during the early phase of the fight. Now, how is this even practical? In my experience, the enemy is on top of you immediately when fights begin, and I have not had the opportunity to buff at all. So I abandoned the idea of buffing and simply start offensive casting ASAP. I don't even cast Eldritch Aim on my Wizard.

 

Is there a secret formula that I am missing here?

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You can - for example - send somebody scouting and pulling the enemy. Preferably this guy has a bit higher move speed, but it also works without that. He pulls the enemies to the rest of the party. In this time you can do plenty of buffing. 

 

Never just run into a group of enemies and start fighting. Let the enemies run towards you. They can't do anything while they run - while you can prepare for the fight.

 

It even works if you stop at bow or gun range and open the fight with some shots.

Edited by Boeroer
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Yeah the secret formula is learning from your mistakes and moving forward.

 

Your obvisouly fairly new. You will get better just stick to it.

 

I wouldn't attempt to build a melee wizard on your first playthrough. Just go a traditional ranged wizard firing nukes and debuffs from the backline.

 

Make the most out of the haste spell (daom) and from then on you should be pumping out shadowflame, confusion, call to slumber, petrify.

 

Do this and you can't go wrong.

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Yes corridors will be problematic, but I think there are more instances of open space encounters than narrow corridors. And I also try to move the battle to areas with more open space (not fighting directly at a doorway for example). It basically depends on the playstyle you prefer I guess. For me, I dislike depending on bottlenecks in a party playthrough so I naturally favour open spaces which is more suited for melee characters. Mid late game, classes also get mobility and positional skills that can help.

 

Do you use a "puller" to bring enemies to open spaces then? And if so, who pulls and how does the puller avoid getting focused down before he gets to safety? I understand the principle of stacking movement speed to avoid melees, but couldn't you still get nuked down?

 

You can if you want to. Slap a pair of boots of speed on a character and he/she basically can do pulling easily.

 

I personally prefer not to pull in a party playthrough as it's a hassle. What I mean by "move the battle" is more like positioning to have a good exposed frontline so that the melee characters can fight properly. As I said, this is not perfect and yes there will be occasions when some of the party will not be able to melee engage. With awarenesss, chances are the characters are body blocked are my casters who can still potentially do something in the meantime.

 

Oh, I forgot to ask about these "spellswords" - or really any casters in general:

 

I have now read tons of posts about how folks at harder difficulties stack tons of buffs - 3 or 4 or even more - during the early phase of the fight. Now, how is this even practical? In my experience, the enemy is on top of you immediately when fights begin, and I have not had the opportunity to buff at all. So I abandoned the idea of buffing and simply start offensive casting ASAP. I don't even cast Eldritch Aim on my Wizard.

 

Is there a secret formula that I am missing here?

I think Raven's footage on the 6 chanters playthrough can sort of demonstrate this. Before battle take food items to buff up. Each different ones can potentially raise each your stats by 2-3 with other minor effects, and they last for minutes.

 

Then there is the order of buffing. Potions of DAOM is very common as they reduce recovery and taking them first will shorten your spell buff chain

 

Some of the best spell buffs are available in scrolls. Which frees up the buffer to cast the more unique buffs when the other part members can just scroll up. Best example I can think of are scrolls of protection from fear.

 

Remain in a tight group at the start even if engagements starts. Getting buffed by say Crowns of the Faithful might even be worth giving up a more advantageous engagement position to the enemy.

 

You can also use summons to temporary slow down enemy advance. It will buy the party about 5-ish seconds. I frequently use summons for this purpose.

Edited by mosspit
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You can - for example - send somebody scouting and pulling the enemy. Preferably this guy has a bit higher move speed, but it also works without that. He pulls the enemies to the rest of the party. In this time you can do plenty of buffing. 

 

Never just run into a group of enemies and start fighting. Let the enemies run towards you. They can't do anything while they run - while you can prepare for the fight.

 

It even works if you stop at bow or gun range and open the fight with some shots.

 

I will experiment with a puller then - even though that's another layer of micro-management. I am still afraid of ranged enemies though. Not sure about the bow or the gun idea. Rogues seem to fragile unless I build them too survival-oriented (and thus lose DPS); I don't want a Ranger ever; and the other classes do not seem all that good with ranged weapons. Or am I wrong? Can Chanters or Ciphers work with bows? In that case, I might swap out the Rogue - though then I lose the hilarity of the Borresaine near-auto stuns. (My Rogue was averaging about 85 percent crit rate throughout even the early game.)

 

 

Yeah the secret formula is learning from your mistakes and moving forward.

 

Your obvisouly fairly new. You will get better just stick to it.

 

I wouldn't attempt to build a melee wizard on your first playthrough. Just go a traditional ranged wizard firing nukes and debuffs from the backline.

 

Make the most out of the haste spell (daom) and from then on you should be pumping out shadowflame, confusion, call to slumber, petrify.

 

Do this and you can't go wrong.

 

The other advantage in having a melee caster, it looks like, is the fact that a lot of the good spells require me to be in-close range as well. So I think I might need equip the Priest in a 1H/shield mode, too, as most of her AoE buffs and heals require you to be near your group.

 

 

 

 

Yes corridors will be problematic, but I think there are more instances of open space encounters than narrow corridors. And I also try to move the battle to areas with more open space (not fighting directly at a doorway for example). It basically depends on the playstyle you prefer I guess. For me, I dislike depending on bottlenecks in a party playthrough so I naturally favour open spaces which is more suited for melee characters. Mid late game, classes also get mobility and positional skills that can help.

 

Do you use a "puller" to bring enemies to open spaces then? And if so, who pulls and how does the puller avoid getting focused down before he gets to safety? I understand the principle of stacking movement speed to avoid melees, but couldn't you still get nuked down?

 

You can if you want to. Slap a pair of boots of speed on a character and he/she basically can do pulling easily.

 

I personally prefer not to pull in a party playthrough as it's a hassle. What I mean by "move the battle" is more like positioning to have a good exposed frontline so that the melee characters can fight properly. As I said, this is not perfect and yes there will be occasions when some of the party will not be able to melee engage. With awarenesss, chances are the characters are body blocked are my casters who can still potentially do something in the meantime.

 

Oh, I forgot to ask about these "spellswords" - or really any casters in general:

 

I have now read tons of posts about how folks at harder difficulties stack tons of buffs - 3 or 4 or even more - during the early phase of the fight. Now, how is this even practical? In my experience, the enemy is on top of you immediately when fights begin, and I have not had the opportunity to buff at all. So I abandoned the idea of buffing and simply start offensive casting ASAP. I don't even cast Eldritch Aim on my Wizard.

 

Is there a secret formula that I am missing here?

I think Raven's footage on the 6 chanters playthrough can sort of demonstrate this. Before battle take food items to buff up. Each different ones can potentially raise each your stats by 2-3 with other minor effects, and they last for minutes.

 

Then there is the order of buffing. Potions of DAOM is very common as they reduce recovery and taking them first will shorten your spell buff chain

 

Some of the best spell buffs are available in scrolls. Which frees up the buffer to cast the more unique buffs when the other part members can just scroll up. Best example I can think of are scrolls of protection from fear.

 

Remain in a tight group at the start even if engagements starts. Getting buffed by say Crowns of the Faithful might even be worth giving up a more advantageous engagement position to the enemy.

 

You can also use summons to temporary slow down enemy advance. It will buy the party about 5-ish seconds. I frequently use summons for this purpose.

 

 

I guess I will just have to face the fact that I need to do a lot more micro-management in this game than I am used to - if I want to do really well! ;)

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You don't need to realy "pull" with one character. You can also just unstealth in a rel. safe distance (encounter will start) and let the enemy run towards your group. Never run towards the enemy group, let them do the movement. Moving is basically time you can't spend for something else.

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You don't need to realy "pull" with one character. You can also just unstealth in a rel. safe distance (encounter will start) and let the enemy run towards your group. Never run towards the enemy group, let them do the movement. Moving is basically time you can't spend for something else.

 

Ah, ok; I never thought about that method.

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Posting from my phone and struggling to quote what I need, so bear with me.

 

All of the wizard buffs I used were instant cast and had no recovery. For the list of buffs, review the Frozen Lance combat tactics as they give the exact order I cast buffs in order to maximize overlap. Casting DAoM earlier did not speed up casting time as there is no recovery time for the wizard - not sure about buffs with other classes.

 

Playing with a party my casters tend to be ranged. Blaster wizard or rot skull druids are pretty effective and don't get in the way of the more melee oriented team members. A melee wizard could get his buffs up pretty quickly, but it ended up being more micro in a team for me. Not only did I have to manage him, but I also needed to ensure he would get in on the action.

 

Seems like a small thing, but with four melee dudes all anxious to get in on the action, once the melee wizard was buffed, the rest of the team had already gotten to the best positions and this just led to him doing less damage than he would by blasting.

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Posting from my phone and struggling to quote what I need, so bear with me.

 

All of the wizard buffs I used were instant cast and had no recovery. For the list of buffs, review the Frozen Lance combat tactics as they give the exact order I cast buffs in order to maximize overlap. Casting DAoM earlier did not speed up casting time as there is no recovery time for the wizard - not sure about buffs with other classes.

 

Playing with a party my casters tend to be ranged. Blaster wizard or rot skull druids are pretty effective and don't get in the way of the more melee oriented team members. A melee wizard could get his buffs up pretty quickly, but it ended up being more micro in a team for me. Not only did I have to manage him, but I also needed to ensure he would get in on the action.

 

Seems like a small thing, but with four melee dudes all anxious to get in on the action, once the melee wizard was buffed, the rest of the team had already gotten to the best positions and this just led to him doing less damage than he would by blasting.

 

Ok, back to the blaster Wizard build then. One more question about this build though: According to a very extensive Steam guide on class builds, DPS Wizards fall off considerably in late-game relative to the non-caster DPS classses. Is this true?

 

Also, is your Priest an implement user or a melee? I ask, because I might be unable to avoid having 4 melees anyways, since I think the Priest needs to be up-close.

Edited by Lampros
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According to a very extensive Steam guide on class builds, DPS Wizards fall off considerably in late-game relative to the non-caster DPS classses. Is this true?

No, it's total bullshart.

 

 

All right. Blaster Wizard it is then! ;)

 

Edit: Especially since I will likely use a Cipher or Druid for more CC instead of a Rogue.

Edited by Lampros
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Posting from my phone and struggling to quote what I need, so bear with me.

 

All of the wizard buffs I used were instant cast and had no recovery. For the list of buffs, review the Frozen Lance combat tactics as they give the exact order I cast buffs in order to maximize overlap. Casting DAoM earlier did not speed up casting time as there is no recovery time for the wizard - not sure about buffs with other classes.

 

Playing with a party my casters tend to be ranged. Blaster wizard or rot skull druids are pretty effective and don't get in the way of the more melee oriented team members. A melee wizard could get his buffs up pretty quickly, but it ended up being more micro in a team for me. Not only did I have to manage him, but I also needed to ensure he would get in on the action.

 

Seems like a small thing, but with four melee dudes all anxious to get in on the action, once the melee wizard was buffed, the rest of the team had already gotten to the best positions and this just led to him doing less damage than he would by blasting.

 

Ok, back to the blaster Wizard build then. One more question about this build though: According to a very extensive Steam guide on class builds, DPS Wizards fall off considerably in late-game relative to the non-caster DPS classses. Is this true?

 

Also, is your Priest an implement user or a melee? I ask, because I might be unable to avoid having 4 melees anyways, since I think the Priest needs to be up-close.

 

 

Regarding DPS, sure a rogue who hits for 50-80 with each hit, dual-wielding and with a potion of DAoM is a pure DPS machine, but a wizard will do more damage with 1 Ninagauth's Shadowflame followed by 3 Kalakoth's Freezing Rakes. Damage output will be just over 600 in a very short period of time. If you can petrify your opponents, then just cast Gaze of the Adragan after the Shadowflame and watch the total damage output go to over 1,000 from the 3 rakes.

 

Rogues won't easily beat that, but in the same vein, I just beat Thaos with a level 13 rogue (using Wodjee's FCS run as a guide) and he just crushed him. Thaos stood absolutely no chance as he was perma-stunned or perma-proned, but I needed to split the fight. My level 16 wizard did not bother splitting the group, but came close to dying from a couple of Cleansing Flames. So, they are different playstyles.

 

Regarding my priest, I used Durance up front but probably should have used him in the backline. Having fewer melee bodies up front makes it easier to place AoE spells without nuking my own chars.

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Posting from my phone and struggling to quote what I need, so bear with me.

 

All of the wizard buffs I used were instant cast and had no recovery. For the list of buffs, review the Frozen Lance combat tactics as they give the exact order I cast buffs in order to maximize overlap. Casting DAoM earlier did not speed up casting time as there is no recovery time for the wizard - not sure about buffs with other classes.

 

Playing with a party my casters tend to be ranged. Blaster wizard or rot skull druids are pretty effective and don't get in the way of the more melee oriented team members. A melee wizard could get his buffs up pretty quickly, but it ended up being more micro in a team for me. Not only did I have to manage him, but I also needed to ensure he would get in on the action.

 

Seems like a small thing, but with four melee dudes all anxious to get in on the action, once the melee wizard was buffed, the rest of the team had already gotten to the best positions and this just led to him doing less damage than he would by blasting.

 

Ok, back to the blaster Wizard build then. One more question about this build though: According to a very extensive Steam guide on class builds, DPS Wizards fall off considerably in late-game relative to the non-caster DPS classses. Is this true?

 

Also, is your Priest an implement user or a melee? I ask, because I might be unable to avoid having 4 melees anyways, since I think the Priest needs to be up-close.

 

 

Regarding DPS, sure a rogue who hits for 50-80 with each hit, dual-wielding and with a potion of DAoM is a pure DPS machine, but a wizard will do more damage with 1 Ninagauth's Shadowflame followed by 3 Kalakoth's Freezing Rakes. Damage output will be just over 600 in a very short period of time. If you can petrify your opponents, then just cast Gaze of the Adragan after the Shadowflame and watch the total damage output go to over 1,000 from the 3 rakes.

 

Rogues won't easily beat that, but in the same vein, I just beat Thaos with a level 13 rogue (using Wodjee's FCS run as a guide) and he just crushed him. Thaos stood absolutely no chance as he was perma-stunned or perma-proned, but I needed to split the fight. My level 16 wizard did not bother splitting the group, but came close to dying from a couple of Cleansing Flames. So, they are different playstyles.

 

Regarding my priest, I used Durance up front but probably should have used him in the backline. Having fewer melee bodies up front makes it easier to place AoE spells without nuking my own chars.

 

 

Right now, the Wizard is behind all other DPS in my group - Cipher, Chanter, and Paladin. So I wonder if it is my play-style. I haven't rested a lot so far, so I only use available spells - and it seems like casters need all the rest spells to top out the DPS charts? Or is it that casters get their hard-hitting spells late? I am currently only level 4.

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I am assuming you are referring to the total damage in the character section. A wizard will lag behind initially, but can make it up for it later, depending on how you play him.

 

You would need to choose all of the relevant blaster talents, you would need to buff using Kalakoth's Minor Blights, Deleterious Alacrity of Motion, Merciless Gaze and Eldritch Aim (can be replaced with Citzal's Martial Power later if you want to do even more damage). If you then have one of your tanks use the Ring of Searing Flames (saves you time by not casting Combusting Wounds) and you then blast a group (blast damage can be significant) then you would probably outdamage everyone. You would however need to use choke points so that the enemies cluster together in order to maximize the blast effect.

 

With Spell Mastery that you could get the blights, Merciless Gaze and Eldritch Aim and not need to use memorized spells. You can then only use DAoM when it is really needed. This will minimize the amount of resting to regain used spells.

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Wizards often don't lead in the "damage done" section of the char sheet because you will hold them back in trash fights and therefore they won't do a lot of damage in those inimportant encounters (until you get spell masteery and can spam stuff on an encounter basis). But in the important encounters you can then unleash all their spells, making that encounter a lot easier. That is way more important than leading the damage highscore (which doesn't work properly anyways - for example ranger's companion's damage doesn't get looged as well as chanter's Dragon Thrashed damage for example). So don't look at those numbers too much, they say not much about the usefulness of the character.

Edited by Boeroer
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I am assuming you are referring to the total damage in the character section. A wizard will lag behind initially, but can make it up for it later, depending on how you play him.

 

You would need to choose all of the relevant blaster talents, you would need to buff using Kalakoth's Minor Blights, Deleterious Alacrity of Motion, Merciless Gaze and Eldritch Aim (can be replaced with Citzal's Martial Power later if you want to do even more damage). If you then have one of your tanks use the Ring of Searing Flames (saves you time by not casting Combusting Wounds) and you then blast a group (blast damage can be significant) then you would probably outdamage everyone. You would however need to use choke points so that the enemies cluster together in order to maximize the blast effect.

 

With Spell Mastery that you could get the blights, Merciless Gaze and Eldritch Aim and not need to use memorized spells. You can then only use DAoM when it is really needed. This will minimize the amount of resting to regain used spells.

 

I am still only level 4, and this is my second playthrough (my first playthrough got corrupted around level 6). So I don't have most of those stuff yet. But something to look forward to! ;)

 

Wizards often don't lead in the "damage done" section of the char sheet because you will hold them back in trash fights and therefore they won't do a lot of damage in those inimportant encounters (until you get spell masteery and can spam stuff on an encounter basis). But in the important encounters you can then unleash all their spells, making that encounter a lot easier. That is way more important than leading the damage highscore (which doesn't work properly anyways - for example ranger's companion's damage doesn't get looged as well as chanter's Dragon Thrashed damage for example). So don't look at those numbers too much, they say not much about the usefulness of the character.

 

Yeah, I suspected as much. I guess the same warning applies to DPS Priests, too.

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