Do all classes have an ability resource cost now?

[Infinitron]

From JoshTwitter: https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/860210739826499586/photo/1

 

 

The number on each ability icon appears to be its Zeal cost.

 

If all classes work like this now, that's going to be a pretty significant departure from Infinity Engine/AD&D norms. Although in practice, especially at higher levels, it may play more like the IE games since your ability to spam lots of non-spell per-encounter active abilities (which the IE games didn't have much of) will be reduced.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Infinitron

[Doppelschwert]

Might as well be a fatigue mechanic; abilities scale with resource and usage decreases it, although that's probably unlikely. Regardless, it will be interesting to see if this apparently new mechanic will make the game feel more tactical.

[MaxQuest]

That's interesting. In the screenshot paladin has 9 zeal and the spell tooltip doesn't list per-encounter limit.

It seems that the player will be able to decide how many times he wants to use ability X, rather than be limited by a hard limit.

 

Currently, everything is either per encounter or based on a resource that builds up (i.e. resources like Focus, Phrases, or Wounds). The per rest resource is Empower.[...]

Pure speculation on my part, but I would assume that:

- wizard, priest and druid would get per-encounter spells, without any resource pool. E.g. a level 7/0 wizard would be able to cast 1 rank-4 spell, 2 rank-3 spells, 3 rank-2 spells and 4 rank-1 spells, in each fight. Or something like that. The amount of spells available would depend on spell progression table and their power level or power points.

- paladin would have a fixed amount of zeal at the start of each fight, and would be able to spend it how he likes. I suppose he won't generate zeal in the process, but would be able to get cost refunds under specific conditions, or with the help of empower.

- chanter would still use chant counter

- monk has wounds

- cipher has focus (and max focus limit, which would probably get affected by their psionics points)

- ranger and fighter bear the feeling of 'reliable' dps. They could start the fight with a medium amount of bond and discipline and generate one point each x seconds.

- rogue could get a mix of the above; each ability has a cost; they start with some guile 'm' enough for 2-4 abilities; but can generate guile when they flank the opponent.

Edited May 5, 2017 by MaxQuest

[MortyTheGobbo]

That is interesting. Last I knew, classes that had per-encounter abilities in Pillars 1 (Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, Barbarians, Rogues) would continue to use them, just with more variety. I wasn't sure if they'd get the per-rest "empower" resource like wizards, clerics and druids. This is new.

[DigitalCrack]

Not resource related but the fact that the paladin has so many active abilities lined up on the bar is nice to see.  Looks like all of them are returning abilities but if they have the upgrade tiers similar to the Mark enemy skill that's displayed, that is going to make things a whole lot more interesting.

[Infinitron]

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3807509&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=4#post472019782

 

[smjjames]

I think I remember this being mentioned in one of the Fig updates.

[Infinitron]

I think I remember this being mentioned in one of the Fig updates.

 

The concept of Power Sources was mentioned, but it wasn't stated to be a mana-like ability resource mechanic for martial classes.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Infinitron

[Guest]

 

I think I remember this being mentioned in one of the Fig updates.

The concept of Power Sources was mentioned, but it wasn't stated to be a mana-like ability resource mechanic for martial classes.

It seemed pretty clear to me that it was.

 

Edit: the video was more explicit, but the following was taken from the text of update #7

 

"Every class has a Power Source, from Rage for barbarians to Arcane for wizards. The level of a Power Source determines what level abilities can be chosen from that class, the available resources (casts/uses) for related abilities, and the strength (damage, number of projectiles, etc.) of those abilities."

 

Edit 2: 2:50-4:00 in the video for update 7

Edited May 5, 2017 by Achilles

[smjjames]

 

 

I think I remember this being mentioned in one of the Fig updates.

The concept of Power Sources was mentioned, but it wasn't stated to be a mana-like ability resource mechanic for martial classes.

It seemed pretty clear to me that it was.

 

 

Let me try and find what I saw.

[MaxQuest]

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3807509&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=4#post472019782

I am still curious, do paladins start combat at:

- 0 zeal, and can gain it (from attacking/casting or even passively over time)

- m zeal, and can gain more

- max zeal, but cannot gain any more (except for cost refunds)

[Guest]

 

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3807509&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=4#post472019782

I am still curious, do paladins start combat at:

- 0 zeal, and can gain it (from attacking/casting or even passively over time)

- m zeal, and can gain more

- max zeal, but cannot gain any more (except for cost refunds)

All classes start with 3 resource points and get 3 more at level up. The max for a level 20, single-class character is 60. There are charts and everything in update 7

 

Edit: to clarify, resource points are used to determine power level, which I believe is what's being showcased in that screenshot from Josh. Zeal of 9 means that Pallegina is either level 17 or 18 (or level 20 with a 3/1 multiclass split)

Edited May 5, 2017 by Achilles

[smjjames]

Yeah, it was the power source thing, https://www.fig.co/campaigns/deadfire?update=250#updates , which mentions Rage for Barbs and Arcane (at least they didn't just call it Mana) for Wizards.

 

Maybe this is actually the same thing as the resource cost? The power source is the resource being used after all.

 

We'll certainly be getting more information in the future.

Edited May 5, 2017 by smjjames

[Guest]

Yeah, it was the power source thing, https://www.fig.co/campaigns/deadfire?update=250#updates , which mentions Rage for Barbs and Arcane (at least they didn't just call it Mana) for Wizards.

 

Maybe this is actually the same thing as the resource cost? The power source is the resource being used after all.

Are you talking about the reference to having Zeal cost refunded? That was my take: Pallegina uses Zeal to activate Sworn Rival. If that enemy is defeated (by her?) she gets those Zeal points back without having to rest (how power points are usually restored) Edited May 5, 2017 by Achilles

[MortyTheGobbo]

Hm, so how does it fit into the idea of per-rest power points that empower per-encounter abilities? That doesn't seem to be it, since abilities simply cost Zeal in this example. Maybe they're exclusive to the formerly-Vancian casters, while other classes get their own resources.

[Guest]

Go back and watch the video from update 7. Important part starts at about 2:50 and runs to about the 4:00 mark

[Infinitron]

 

 

I think I remember this being mentioned in one of the Fig updates.

The concept of Power Sources was mentioned, but it wasn't stated to be a mana-like ability resource mechanic for martial classes.

It seemed pretty clear to me that it was.

 

Edit: the video was more explicit, but the following was taken from the text of update #7

 

"Every class has a Power Source, from Rage for barbarians to Arcane for wizards. The level of a Power Source determines what level abilities can be chosen from that class, the available resources (casts/uses) for related abilities, and the strength (damage, number of projectiles, etc.) of those abilities."

 

Edit 2: 2:50-4:00 in the video for update 7

 

 

That description implies that the Power Source was meant to determine the number of uses per ability. Not that it itself was a global mana-like resource for all abilities.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Infinitron

[Infinitron]

 

 

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3807509&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=4#post472019782

I am still curious, do paladins start combat at:

- 0 zeal, and can gain it (from attacking/casting or even passively over time)

- m zeal, and can gain more

- max zeal, but cannot gain any more (except for cost refunds)

All classes start with 3 resource points and get 3 more at level up. The max for a level 20, single-class character is 60. There are charts and everything in update 7

 

Edit: to clarify, resource points are used to determine power level, which I believe is what's being showcased in that screenshot from Josh. Zeal of 9 means that Pallegina is either level 17 or 18 (or level 20 with a 3/1 multiclass split)

 

 

That's not what he was asking. He was talking about how the Power Source works as a resource in combat.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Infinitron

[smjjames]

I may or may

 

Go back and watch the video from update 7. Important part starts at about 2:50 and runs to about the 4:00 mark

 

I understand it somewhat better now, though I'm still not sure if it's a drainable resource like Mana typically is or if it's something else.

 

Also, in the other part of the video, seems more like a Druid+Barbarian (or vice versa) would be a shaman rather than barbarian+wizard (and vice versa) but I guess it depends on how you slice it.

 

@Infinitron: They said that the levels in PoE2 are now up to 18, so, I guess they increased the level cap without announcing? If that's the case.

Edited May 5, 2017 by smjjames

[Guest]

I guess I'm not understanding the disconnect. You understand that Fighters use Discipline for Knockdown and that Knockdown will change as Discipline improves: yes or no?

[MaxQuest]

All classes start with 3 resource points and get 3 more at level up. The max for a level 20, single-class character is 60. There are charts and everything in update 7

 

Edit: to clarify, resource points are used to determine power level, which I believe is what's being showcased in that screenshot from Josh. Zeal of 9 means that Pallegina is either level 17 or 18 (or level 20 with a 3/1 multiclass split)

I was already ready to point on potential 60 FoD usages per combat, plus the fact that different classes use different resource generation if at all

 

Using power level as limit for spell usage is indeed more plausible, as it is also used for spell-progression tables of wizard, priest and druid.

But it doesn't answer the question

 

 

a. did Pallegina start combat at 0 zeal, and generated 9 zeal, and could generate more (like chanter)?

b. did Pallegina start combat at 0 zeal, and generated 9 zeal, and that is her maximum (like monk)?

c. same as a. but started at m (0 < m < 9)

d. same as b. but started at m (0 < m < 9) (somewhat like cipher)

e. or did Pallegina start at 9 zeal, and that's her current maximum?

 

Edited May 5, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Guest]

I may or may

 

Go back and watch the video from update 7. Important part starts at about 2:50 and runs to about the 4:00 mark

I understand it somewhat better now, though I'm still not sure if it's a drainable resource like Mana typically is or if it's something else.

 

Also, in the other part of the video, seems more like a Druid+Barbarian (or vice versa) would be a shaman rather than barbarian+wizard (and vice versa) but I guess it depends on how you slice it.

Each class has power points that they can use to activate abilities. These points are depleted as they are used and can be restored by resting. Does that help?

[smjjames]

Seems to just be a case of 'we (forumites) don't know enough yet about how it works'. And the numbers mentioned previously in the fig update and the video could easily change, like the appearance of Pallegina being level 20, which is above the previously stated level cap.

[Guest]

 

All classes start with 3 resource points and get 3 more at level up. The max for a level 20, single-class character is 60. There are charts and everything in update 7

 

Edit: to clarify, resource points are used to determine power level, which I believe is what's being showcased in that screenshot from Josh. Zeal of 9 means that Pallegina is either level 17 or 18 (or level 20 with a 3/1 multiclass split)

I was already ready to point on potential 60 FoD usages per combat, plus the fact that different classes use different resource generation if at all

 

Using power level as limit for spell usage is indeed more plausible, as it is also used for spell-progression tables of wizard, priest and druid.

But it doesn't answer the question

 

 

a. did Pallegina start at 0 zeal, and generated 9 zeal, and could generate more (like chanter)?

b. did Pallegina start at 0 zeal, and generated 9 zeal, and that's it's her maximum (like monk)?

c. same as 1, but started at m (0 < m < 9)

d. same as 2, but started at m (0 < m < 9)

e. or did Pallegina start at 9 zeal, and that's her current maximum?

a. No, every class starts with 3 power points which gives them a power level of 1. 0 isn't an option, even when multiclassing.

b. She has 9 Zeal because she's high level. Read my previous post.

No idea what you're asking with c and d. Power points are restored by resting (though I suspect that this will be differ t for Chanters and Monks. Speculation on my part only)

Edited May 5, 2017 by Achilles

[Infinitron]

The point is there's an important difference, feels-wise, between these two definitions of a Power Source.

 

1) Discipline: For every N points of Discipline, you gain an additional per-encounter use for all Fighter abilities.

 

2) Discipline: Your Discipline is the maximum value of the resource you spend to activate Fighter abilities in combat. You either start out with your Discipline resource at max at the beginning of every battle, or you have to build it up by some method the same way a Monk builds up Wounds and a Cipher builds up Focus.

 

The former is what you'd expect given the way Fighters and most other classes worked in PoE1, and it seems to be the most natural understanding of the way Power Sources were described during the Fig campaign.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Infinitron