How do we know that Magran worked with Woedica to have Eothas killed?

[DeathclawSlayer]

This is mainly concerning the end of Durance's quest, I just don't understand how the PC and Durance makes the discovery that Magran was working with Woedica against Eothas, and then tried to have all the Godhammer priests killed. I played this game about a year ago and Durance was one of my favorite companions but then ending of his quest left me confused, as you had to convince him Magran tried to have him killed, but I wasn't convinced she did, nor is there concrete evidence that Magran worked with Woedica.

 

I searched this forum up and down but didn't find an answer, so a detailed response would be appreciated.

[scythesong]

Basically, the whole thing's pretty open ended and there's a lot of "why"s missing from the bigger picture.

WARNING: MASSIVE SPOILERS

 

This is what we know:

-Waidwen WAS Eothas (or something approximating a very powerful avatar) and he tried to take the Dyrwood by force.

-Magran responded to his attempt to conquer Dyrwood with the Godhammer.

-Woedica has been carefully plotting... something... since her fall.

 

We can try to fill in the blanks using info from dialog:

-Magran is apparently pro-progress. She supports the use of animancy and is apparently allied with Galawain/Abydon against Woedica.

-She does not see Durance, and yet Durance is able to channel her power.

-Woedica's plot is extremely meticulous and varied, spanning all the lifetimes of Thaos and culminating in recent events (eg. the Hollowborn phenomenon).

-The gods seem more like superpowered sentient avatars of specific concepts/doctrines (from the comments of the delemgan sisters and your conversations with the gods themselves) and they are bound to those concepts/doctrines on a fundamental level. Woedica (being the goddess of established laws and hierarchies) actively works against radical change of the status quo everywhere, for example, even in the conservative Aedyr Empire (her agents interfere with politics there just on general principle, based on Aloth's dialog).

-According to Durance, bad things happen when they try to take interact with mortals on a fundamental level (eg. Eothas' possession, the creation of the Godhammer).

-They have made a pact which prevents them from interfering with mortal affairs directly.

 

Durance's hypothesis:

-Although Waidwen/Eothas displayed plenty of other agenda, he was still the god of renewal/light. Because Eothas attacked the Dyrwood RIGHT BEFORE the start of Waidwen's Legacy then Durance quickly came to the realization (and this makes perfect sense) that Eothas probably discovered Woedica's plot and was ultimately just trying to prevent it.

Note that besides Berath, Eothas is the god most affected by Woedica's actions, especially his Gaun aspect. Unlike the passive Berath, however, Eothas was an active god who would regularly communicate with his faithful.

 

The Watcher's hypothesis

-Through a combination of gut-feeling, visions (the death of the 11 other individuals who helped create the godhammer) and proximity to both Durance/Magran, the Watcher hypothesizes that Magran was a willing accomplice of Woedica - at least as far as the destruction of Eothas was concerned (it could just be an alliance of convenience at that particular point).

 

Durance's speculation based on the above:

-Magran was working closely with Woedica and deserves to be punished just as severely for her actions (particularly the part where she tries to get him killed). Based on his proud/vulgar nature, it's understandable why he latches on to one of worst possible conclusions one can make.

 

My speculation:

-The other gods knew about the Leaden Key and its activities but they tolerated the group (whether they agreed with Woedica's methods or not).

-Woedica decides to use the Leaden Key in what is possibly the highlight of her plot - a kind of rite of ascension which would involve her consuming thousands of powerful souls to gain MASSIVE power (the Hollowborn phenomena is a side effect).

-Eothas discovers the plot but unlike the other deities, he decides to act directly (god of renewal, change was fundamental to his nature so what can you do) by possessing Waidwen.

-To punish Eothas for breaking the pact and abusing his power (despite his intentions), Magran works with Woedica (because of Woedica's nature and because Eothas was already working against her) to orchestrate the creation and use of the Godhammer. She probably knew that by working directly through the mortals tasked with creating the weapon, however, she was also dangerously close to breaking the pact herself - to help mitigate this, everyone associated with its creation/use had to die (probably through Woedica's intervention - the Leaden Key?).

-Obviously that didn't work. Durance survived (and keeps surviving, thanks to you) and the reason he can channel Magran's power (even though she can't even see him) is probably because he has a shard of the goddess' essence/being/whatever inside of him.

-The alliance between Magran and Woedica ended there.

-If Deadfire gets an expansion, Durance will probably be the big boss ala reverse Bhaalspawn and you have to kill him before he "eats" Magran and destroys the rest of the deities in his crusade against them heh.

Edited April 29, 2017 by scythesong

[parnashwind]

Basically, the whole thing's pretty open ended and there's a lot of "why"s missing from the bigger picture.

WARNING: MASSIVE SPOILERS

 

This is what we know:

-Waidwen WAS Eothas (or something approximating a very powerful avatar) and he tried to take the Dyrwood by force.

-Magran responded to his attempt to conquer Dyrwood with the Godhammer.

-Woedica has been carefully plotting... something... since her fall.

 

We can try to fill in the blanks using info from dialog:

-Magran is apparently pro-progress. She supports the use of animancy and is apparently allied with Galawain/Abydon against Woedica.

-She does not see Durance, and yet Durance is able to channel her power.

-Woedica's plot is extremely meticulous and varied, spanning all the lifetimes of Thaos and culminating in recent events (eg. the Hollowborn phenomenon).

-The gods seem more like superpowered sentient avatars of specific concepts/doctrines (from the comments of the delemgan sisters and your conversations with the gods themselves) and they are bound to those concepts/doctrines on a fundamental level. Woedica (being the goddess of established laws and hierarchies) actively works against radical change of the status quo everywhere, for example, even in the conservative Aedyr Empire (her agents interfere with politics there just on general principle, based on Aloth's dialog).

-According to Durance, bad things happen when they try to take interact with mortals on a fundamental level (eg. Eothas' possession, the creation of the Godhammer).

-They have made a pact which prevents them from interfering with mortal affairs directly.

 

Durance's hypothesis:

-Although Waidwen/Eothas displayed plenty of other agenda, he was still the god of renewal/light. Because Eothas attacked the Dyrwood RIGHT BEFORE the start of Waidwen's Legacy then Durance quickly came to the realization (and this makes perfect sense) that Eothas probably discovered Woedica's plot and was ultimately just trying to prevent it.

Note that besides Berath, Eothas is the god most affected by Woedica's actions, especially his Gaun aspect. Unlike the passive Berath, however, Eothas was an active god who would regularly communicate with his faithful.

 

The Watcher's hypothesis

-Through a combination of gut-feeling, visions (the death of the 11 other individuals who helped create the godhammer) and proximity to both Durance/Magran, the Watcher hypothesizes that Magran was a willing accomplice of Woedica - at least as far as the destruction of Eothas was concerned (it could just be an alliance of convenience at that particular point).

 

Durance's speculation based on the above:

-Magran was working closely with Woedica and deserves to be punished just as severely for her actions (particularly the part where she tries to get him killed). Based on his proud/vulgar nature, it's understandable why he latches on to one of worst possible conclusions one can make.

 

My speculation:

-The other gods knew about the Leaden Key and its activities but they tolerated the group (whether they agreed with Woedica's methods or not).

-Woedica decides to use the Leaden Key in what is possibly the highlight of her plot - a kind of rite of ascension which would involve her consuming thousands of powerful souls to gain MASSIVE power (the Hollowborn phenomena is a side effect).

-Eothas discovers the plot but unlike the other deities, he decides to act directly (god of renewal, change was fundamental to his nature so what can you do) by possessing Waidwen.

-To punish Eothas for breaking the pact and abusing his power (despite his intentions), Magran works with Woedica (because of Woedica's nature and because Eothas was already working against her) to orchestrate the creation and use of the Godhammer. She probably knew that by working directly through the mortals tasked with creating the weapon, however, she was also dangerously close to breaking the pact herself - to help mitigate this, everyone associated with its creation/use had to die (probably through Woedica's intervention - the Leaden Key?).

-Obviously that didn't work. Durance survived (and keeps surviving, thanks to you) and the reason he can channel Magran's power (even though she can't even see him) is probably because he has a shard of the goddess' essence/being/whatever inside of him.

-The alliance between Magran and Woedica ended there.

-If Deadfire gets an expansion, Durance will probably be the big boss ala reverse Bhaalspawn and you have to kill him before he "eats" Magran and destroys the rest of the deities in his crusade against them heh.

 

I dont think Magran is close to breaking the pact tho. Berath explains that Gods cannot intervene directly onto the mortal realm or it will tip the world over. So there should be at least an understanding among the gods on this matter. They can however work through mortals and that is what Magran did.

 

Eothas as far as we know intervened directly. So Magran can easily justify her actions, she does not need to hide anything if all she cared for is to punish Eothas.

 

Something is not right about Magran and Woedica

[scythesong]

That's one opinion. I prefer mine because something is obviously up with how Durance is yet able to channel Magran's power, which means that Magran knew that whatever she was doing was extremely risky. If you read all of Durance's dialog, you know that she was working through them on a near-fundamental level. I distinctly remember Durance saying that the creation of the Godhammer not only involved the physical, but a lot of something elses even he had trouble explaining. She was merely mitigating things by working through so many people and then apparently allying with Woedica to remove all trace of what she was doing.

 

I believe that in working through Durance, she left a piece of her inside him. And that inexplicable doubt and guilt and shame he felt after using the Godhammer? That was Magran. That was how she felt after being forced to destroy Eothas.

Edited May 2, 2017 by scythesong

[Piero]

Priests' power is derived from their personal beliefs on the philosophy or teaching of the god, is not the power of the god they serve or are inspired by. Just like the paladins take their power from their usually zealot devotion to a god, ruler or cause. The power come from themselves.

[scythesong]

I thought Durance himself made it perfectly clear that he was having some sort of crisis of faith, and yet when you first meet him a nearby statue of Magran comes alive in your presence.

[masterty66]

I thought Durance himself made it perfectly clear that he was having some sort of crisis of faith, and yet when you first meet him a nearby statue of Magran comes alive in your presence.

Yes but he still believes in Magran's teachings so it makes sense that he can continue wielding Priestly power. 

 

if you read the Priest class description though it makes clear that Priests dont channel the God's power but their own through their belief systems. 

[scythesong]

And that belief system is crucial. The best example we have is of the priestess of Magran who loses the power to light the Defiance City braziers because of doubt. Thaos and Iovarra also shed more light into Durance's doubt which, given his enraged reaction, seems far more serious than he lets on.

 

While it's indeed possible that Durance simply has a very unique and powerful soul, if we go by the explanation that requires the least "ifs" and excuses then the one that makes the most sense is that there's something else that's giving Durance power, something Magranic and something so powerful that it is able to shield him from Magran herself during the Council of Stars.

I believe that if she had seen him then, she would have tried to destroy him. Thaos definitely agrees in your conversation with him.

 

For the record I was not being metaphorical when I said that Durance was yet able to channel Magran's power. I was being literal, with respect to the godhammer and the events that followed. That's kind of the whole point of my argument, that Magran was working through him and the other priests directly and inadvertently left a piece of herself in Durance (which explains all the Magranic iconography that follows him around regardless of his doubt). Durance, in turn, manages to keep surviving thanks to you.

Edited May 16, 2017 by scythesong