Playing Pillars without a Priest

[Livegood118]

@Livegood

 

I don't wanna sound like a ****, but your post on page 1 (sorry still can't quote no idea why) about parties of 2/3 compared to a party of 6 is a little weird to me.

Enemy groups do not increase in size if you have a party of more characters.

You level slighttly slower but the bounties alone more than make up for that.

Any party of 6 without a priest stomps the game that hard, that can't tell any more if you're "better" than with a priest.

I made a thread about this a while ago:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/89907-what-would-be-your-personal-faceroll-party/?p=1853717

 

Where I specifically said a priest would be the strongest in my personal party but I'd rather play without one.

Now from my personal experience with my party of 3 I made the party of 6 in a way that I would retain my playstyle and just have 3 extra chars supporting this very playstyle.

And even tho I have duplicate chars it's totally doable without.

Once again don't wanna sound like an elitist know it all, no offence intended

 

Sorry if I caused any offence – I didn't have anyone in mind when I made the comment. All I was suggesting was that the average person that plays these games probably plays with a party of six different characters and each a different class, so looking at the "balance" of the game in a context other than this probably isn't reflective of how the majority would play it.

 

For example, having one Dragon thrashed chanter in a Party is arguably not OP taking in to account the other abilities you get in the game. Taking six Dragon Thrashed chanters means you'll completely roflstomp any encounter in the game, but the game shouldn't be balanced around taking six chanters along because this is more of an outlier example than the ordinary six character set up, which is what the game is balanced around e.g. people on their first few playthrough like to play with different story companions, each a different class.

 

I'm essentially saying 1 or 2 things;

– The strength of the priest should be adjusted so that while they're still better/more convenient buffers than everyone else in the game, they're not as stupidly powerful as they are at the moment.

– The buffs available to other classes should be brought up to compensate for the absence of a priest.

 

And of course, you can definitely play through the game without a priest if you want - but it's like the sabre choice: you're making a conscious decision to gimp yourself.

[Elric Galad]

Approximately, for party roles, without debating their actual efficiencies :

 

Paladin <=> Chanter

Rogue <=> Ranger <~~> Barbarian (because Barbarian is AoE martial DPS, instead of single target martial DPS like ranger and rogue)

Cipher <=> 1/2 Rogue + 1/2 Wizard

Monk <=> Fighter

Druid <=> 3/4 Wizard + 1/4 Priest (because Form of the Delemgan and Moonwell are excellent support spells)

 

(Paladin + Chanter + Cipher (Mindweb) + Druid) have around the same support capability of 1 Priest (but Priest will not provide the same benefits immediately, he needs to cast at least 2-3 spells to keep up. But he wll eventually keep up.)

And even in the case you already have these 4 classes, a priest will actually multiply their buff strength. So it's pretty much always a good idea to have one in your party.

 

Side note :

 

3/4 Priest + 1/2 Wizard <=> Scrolls in my experience.

Scrolls make anyone into a very decent versatile spellcaster for limited uses.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Elric Galad

[JerekKruger]

Sorry if I caused any offence – I didn't have anyone in mind when I made the comment. All I was suggesting was that the average person that plays these games probably plays with a party of six different characters and each a different class, so looking at the "balance" of the game in a context other than this probably isn't reflective of how the majority would play it.

 

No it's a good point. This subforum tends to be skewed towards more experienced players for whom even PotD is easy with a full group.

 

For example, having one Dragon thrashed chanter in a Party is arguably not OP taking in to account the other abilities you get in the game. Taking six Dragon Thrashed chanters means you'll completely roflstomp any encounter in the game, but the game shouldn't be balanced around taking six chanters along because this is more of an outlier example than the ordinary six character set up, which is what the game is balanced around e.g. people on their first few playthrough like to play with different story companions, each a different class.

 

Not sure I'd agree regarding Dragon Thrashed. At higher levels when you've accrued lots of brisk recitation, and if you support it with the right gear, it is arguably OP. Well, more precisely it's one of the best AoE abilities in the game and doesn't require rest spam. Of course, against enemies that are very resistant to fire and/or slashing it loses a lot of its power, but outside of that situation it really does melt enemies by itself.

 

 

I'm essentially saying 1 or 2 things;

– The strength of the priest should be adjusted so that while they're still better/more convenient buffers than everyone else in the game, they're not as stupidly powerful as they are at the moment.

– The buffs available to other classes should be brought up to compensate for the absence of a priest.

 

Priests certainly could be nerfed a little and remain a top tier class. It would certainly have been a better choice of rebalancing for 3.05 than nerfing the Unlabored Blade  . That said, I'm not sure it's a bad thing to have the classes be unbalanced. A newer player can stick with the more powerful classes, then as they become more experienced and want a bigger challenge they can switch to weaker classes.

 

I disagree on the second point. No class other than the Rogue (who's not a buffer) really needs a buff, and the game is already easy enough as is.

 

Now in designing PoE2 Obsidian should certainly take the time to fiddle with all the classes significantly, perhaps changing their roles up a little, but for PoE I think, other than the Rogue, class balance is in a good place. I'd love to see a patch buff the Rogue, but my biggest gripe with them is how boring their abilities are compared to other classes rather than their relative power. I don't take Rogues because when it comes down to a choice between a class who can set themselves on fire, or summon a pair of simulacrum of themselves, I'm hard pressed to pick the class who can pretend to be dead or knock people out.

 

And of course, you can definitely play through the game without a priest if you want - but it's like the sabre choice: you're making a conscious decision to gimp yourself.

 

 

The sabre choice was never really a problem for me. I always felt that sabres were more of a duelist/rogue weapon, so the only class I'd ever used them with were Ciphers and Rogues. I guess I was gimping myself by doing this, but it never really bothered me, there are plenty of powerful non-sabres out there. And once you do reach the stage of finding PoE easy, gimping youself starts to become something appealing.

[JerekKruger]

Cipher <=> 1/2 Rogue + 1/2 Wizard

 

I'd be tempted to say Cipher <=> 9/10 Rogue + 1/2 Wizard.

[Elric Galad]

 

Cipher <=> 1/2 Rogue + 1/2 Wizard

 

I'd be tempted to say Cipher <=> 9/10 Rogue + 1/2 Wizard.

 

 

Not false, but mainly because Rogue could be buffed a bit.

 

Cipher <=> 1/2 Ranger + 1/2 Wizard would be more eloquent IMHO.

 

Rangers are currently the most solid choice in terme of constant single target DPS. 

[Remix]

I've never really had to use priests. I've messed with them in a lot of parties and they can provide some great spells but so far my easiest potd run involved 2 chanters, a paladin, a barbarian, a wizard and a druid. Almost nothing could stop me between all the cc, disables, and aoe damage. I never really used any potions other than healing potions and almost never had to use resting bonuses.

[Boeroer]

Priest is not about healing. I mean not primarily. He's about buffing the party - especially ACC.

[mosspit]

A priest being a party effectiveness multiplier sits well with me. In a game of rolls and saves, Crown / Devotions is something I miss when I do not run a priest.

Even the prayer spells. Even though scrolls of Prayers against ?? exist, I will prefer those cast by priests as priest Prayers are "fast" speed as opposed to scrolls where they have "scroll-casting". Unless, something has changed in the latest patch.

 

That being said, although a playthrough with a priest does feel more stable, I don't think a priest qualifies as "stupidly" powerful atm. It just that it fulfills its role very well, more or less similar to the other classes in theirs.

Edited December 13, 2016 by mosspit

[Remix]

Priests are very useful but not entirely necessary or even game-breaking in the least.

 

If they were capable of tanking to the same degree as d&d clerics it would be a different story.

[Elric Galad]

To be honest, priests don't break the game by themselves. Devotion + Hard CC break the game, but you need another class for this.

 

Priest + Wizard or Priest + Druid is what really break the game.

 

With cipher, it works well too. And if you need to raise the accuracy of 1 single character, a marker paladin can probably do the job. And Cipher and Wiz may also raise the own Acc after all...

 

Once the above is considered, I would still miss Crown of the faithful.

 

As a side-note, Eotas ultimate spell is incredibly powerful too. I would rank it in the top 3 major buffs while also doing damages...

Edited December 13, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Devotions stacks with certain universal ACC buffs. It's very powerful because it's AoE, too. And a marker paladin - eventually a Darcozzi with Insp. Exh. also stacks with Insp. Radiance and Devotions. You can have 30 ACC for the whole party from the priest and then add +30 on top for a single character from the paladin.

[Livegood118]

This is basically what I'd do with the priest if I was in charge of them:

 

– Change Devotions for the Faithful to +15 accuracy and to a generic accuracy buff, rather than to ranged and melee which stacks with pretty much everything, keep the might component

– Change Inspiring Radiance to +5 accuracy rather than +10, still let it stack with everything

– Change Devotions for the Faithful to +10 Resolve rather than +25, keep it the same otherwise

– Change Shields for the Faithful to +15 Deflection

– Change Circle of Defence to + 8 and increase defences individually rather than to all defences so it doesn't stack with everything

– Change Circle of Eothas to +10 all defences (will still stack with anything that isn't +x all defences modifier).

 

Then maybe make Prayer Against scrolls a bit faster and more freely available.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Livegood118

[Boeroer]

Huh? Does Symbol of Eothas (+20 to all defenses for 3 sec, pulsing) stack with everything?

[Livegood118]

Huh? Does Symbol of Eothas (+20 to all defenses for 3 sec, pulsing) stack with everything?

 

Well, to the extent you don't have other buffs which also have the +x all defences mod. It wouldn't stack with vigorous defence but it would stack with shields for the faithful, for example. Poorly worded on my part, I'll edit.

 

I think under what I've suggested the Priest would still be far and away the best buffer in the game, but wouldn't be quite so OP as they are now.

[Boeroer]

It's basically like Circle of Defense, but stronger. But it's a level 8 spell, so it should be powerful.

[Livegood118]

It's basically like Circle of Defense, but stronger. But it's a level 8 spell, so it should be powerful.

It's uber-powerful by virtue of belonging to the +all defences mod, which stacks with nearly everything else – though maybe I was a bit harsh.

[Boeroer]

It doesn't stack with Circle of Defense.

[Livegood118]

It doesn't stack with Circle of Defense.

 

Yeah I'm aware of that, because Circle of Defence also belongs to the +all defences mod rather than individual mods for each defence.

[Boeroer]

Yes, but what I meant is: Symbol of Eothas is just a better Circle of Defense (wait a second... isn't its name Circle of Protection? ).

You can't stack them and therefore the later has to be more powerful (because its spell level is way higher) to make any sense. +20 compared to +15 is not so much more - the more important part is the duration which is a lot longer.

[Elric Galad]

Well... and the damages... of course.

[mosspit]

I dunno – I'd just love to be able to not bring a Priest along without feeling that I'm somehow intentionally putting myself at a disadvantage.

 

 

This is basically what I'd do with the priest if I was in charge of them:

 

– Change Devotions for the Faithful to +15 accuracy and to a generic accuracy buff, rather than to ranged and melee which stacks with pretty much everything, keep the might component

– Change Inspiring Radiance to +5 accuracy rather than +10, still let it stack with everything

– Change Devotions for the Faithful to +10 Resolve rather than +25, keep it the same otherwise

– Change Shields for the Faithful to +15 Deflection

– Change Circle of Defence to + 8 and increase defences individually rather than to all defences so it doesn't stack with everything

– Change Circle of Eothas to +10 all defences (will still stack with anything that isn't +x all defences modifier).

 

Then maybe make Prayer Against scrolls a bit faster and more freely available.

I think I might be missing something here. But those changes you suggested (minus the scrolls) will not really change the situations of not bringing a Priest along. In other words for playthroughs without a Priest will more or less function remain the same. So nerfing the Priest will make you feel it is ok not bringing a Priest since you are not "missing" out on too much?

 

What about buffing the support skills of other classes to lessen the need of a Priest functionally? Scroll of Prayers alone won't cut it. Apologies in advance to those who feel PoE is already too easy.

Edited December 13, 2016 by mosspit

[Livegood118]

 

I dunno – I'd just love to be able to not bring a Priest along without feeling that I'm somehow intentionally putting myself at a disadvantage.

 

 

This is basically what I'd do with the priest if I was in charge of them:

 

– Change Devotions for the Faithful to +15 accuracy and to a generic accuracy buff, rather than to ranged and melee which stacks with pretty much everything, keep the might component

– Change Inspiring Radiance to +5 accuracy rather than +10, still let it stack with everything

– Change Devotions for the Faithful to +10 Resolve rather than +25, keep it the same otherwise

– Change Shields for the Faithful to +15 Deflection

– Change Circle of Defence to + 8 and increase defences individually rather than to all defences so it doesn't stack with everything

– Change Circle of Eothas to +10 all defences (will still stack with anything that isn't +x all defences modifier).

 

Then maybe make Prayer Against scrolls a bit faster and more freely available.

I think I might be missing something here. But those changes you suggested (minus the scrolls) will not really change the situations of not bringing a Priest along. In other words for playthroughs without a Priest will more or less function remain the same. So nerfing the Priest will make you feel it is ok not bringing a Priest since you are not "missing" out on too much?

 

What about buffing the support skills of other classes to lessen the need of a Priest functionally? Scroll of Prayers alone won't cut it. Apologies in advance to those who feel PoE is already too easy.

 

I don't have any disagreement with how the priest functions, but rather with the fact the way stacking works in the game makes the priest OP.

 

Under the changes I've proposed the priest would still be a great buffer, but less OP.

 

For example under, what I've proposed a priest would be able to add +30 accuracy (Devotions, Champions Boon, Holy Radiance) rather than +40 (+20 Devotions, +10 Holy Radiance, +10 Champion's Boon), and other classes would be able to provide half this with a scroll of valour +15 accuracy. Devotions for the faithful wouldn't increase accuracy bonuses that other classes get, providing they're general bonuses.

[mosspit]

I don't have any disagreement with how the priest functions, but rather with the fact the way stacking works in the game makes the priest OP.

 

Under the changes I've proposed the priest would still be a great buffer, but less OP.

 

For example under, what I've proposed a priest would be able to add +30 accuracy (Devotions, Champions Boon, Holy Radiance) rather than +40 (+20 Devotions, +10 Holy Radiance, +10 Champion's Boon), and other classes would be able to provide half this with a scroll of valour +15 accuracy. Devotions for the faithful wouldn't increase accuracy bonuses that other classes get, providing they're general bonuses.

The point was not about a Priest's functionality. But what possibly be done to distribute more of the support skills over the other classes so to lessen the need of a Priest.

 

As some of the previous poster said, unbalance breeds flexibility and creativity.

[Elric Galad]

 

I don't have any disagreement with how the priest functions, but rather with the fact the way stacking works in the game makes the priest OP.

 

Under the changes I've proposed the priest would still be a great buffer, but less OP.

 

For example under, what I've proposed a priest would be able to add +30 accuracy (Devotions, Champions Boon, Holy Radiance) rather than +40 (+20 Devotions, +10 Holy Radiance, +10 Champion's Boon), and other classes would be able to provide half this with a scroll of valour +15 accuracy. Devotions for the faithful wouldn't increase accuracy bonuses that other classes get, providing they're general bonuses.

The point was not about a Priest's functionality. But what possibly be done to distribute more of the support skills over the other classes so to lessen the need of a Priest.

 

As some of the previous poster said, unbalance breeds flexibility and creativity.

 

 

I think I agree with you.

 

In my opinion, Paladin's and chanter's buff should be made stronger. Chanter should have (more convenient) equivalent of prayer spells (their versatility limited by chanter limited selection).

Druids could get one or two more strong party buff too (they already have form of the Delemgan and Moonwell which are really great).

 

 

Even then, Crown and Devotion are sligthly accross the board in my opinion.

Crown's Resolve buff could be halved (maybe its AoE could be bigger to compensate).

And Devotion Accuracy buff (and debuff) could be halved too (maybe be fast casting in exchange ?).

 

The rest is OK.

 

By the way, it could save priest from their "buffbot curse".

They have good offensive spells too, and it would certainly cool to use them a bit more...

[fiddlesticks]

I thought Devotions didn't stack with generic Accuracy buffs (barring the ones that stack with everything, of course). Did they change that at some point?