New character decision

[Raven Darkholme]

If we talk dps not only through weapon damage but also spells, abilities and the like, paladin level 13 upward (maxed MI high IN) and cipher are also up there but I gotta agree with boroer, monk all over the game and barbarian highest overall.

[Boeroer]

Barb and monk may overlap a bit. If you play the monk more like a disruptor in the enemy backline then they work together perfectly well I guess. Or a barb who engages from the flanks instead of standing in the middle and the monk in the fray instead could also work.

 

I can always recommend a priest. His buffs make every party a lot better and every playthrough easier. He needs a few levels to show his awesomeness.

 

Chanters are always nice if you want dps power combined with tankyness and low micromanagement.

 

Wizards are very flexible and awesome disablers and have good self buffs.

 

Druids are less flexible but more sturdy (without spells) and also have really good CC and damaging spells. Spiritshift turns them into single target melee dps monsters that have no match - but it doesn't last too long.

 

For me, rogues are the weakest class overall atm and I seldomly recommend them.

 

Paladins: awesome support and sturdyness combined with good burst damage and some great order specific talents. After lvl 13 good DPS, too.

[Raven Darkholme]

I have not quite understood yet, what makes the rogue good.

A cipher does better weapon damage and the lower accuracy can be easily compensated by perception and early accuracy gloves from raedrics.

On top of that cipher has it's powers.

Rogue and ranger are the only classes I would rebalance, that being said rangers are way better than rogues.

[JerekKruger]

I have not quite understood yet, what makes the rogue good.

A cipher does better weapon damage and the lower accuracy can be easily compensated by perception and early accuracy gloves from raedrics.

On top of that cipher has it's powers.

Rogue and ranger are the only classes I would rebalance, that being said rangers are way better than rogues.

 

I feel like Obsidian couldn't find a way to make Rogues fit their archetype (super high single target damage glass cannon) that also worked in their ruleset. I also wonder whether there was less enthusiasm for Rogues in Obsidian because their abilities just seem dull compared other classes. When I look at the list of abilities for Monks and Barbarians I get excited, but when I look at the Rogue's list I just don't care. I hope that if PoE2 has a Rogue class* they redesign it in some way to make it more fun.

 

As for Ranger I feel that they are saved by Stormcaller and the usefulness of their pet as a disposable tank. Also ever since I took the Adra Dragon from lightly wounded to dead with Sagani alone (run away, take a shot, graze, run away, take a shot, graze, repeat) I can't hate on her.

 

*I know suggesting that an RPG not have a Rogue class is blasphemy, but when the stealth, lock picking and trap detecting skills aren't tied to the Rogue class, it's not really clear why a Rogue should be different from, say, a different Fighter build.

[Boeroer]

Only rogue that is fun for me atm is the "Direballs" rogue.

[JerekKruger]

What's a direballs Rogue?

 

I really wish I liked Rogues more, cause I love the fact that Devil is so unique, but I rarely use them.

[Boeroer]

A rogue with dual Flames of Fair Rhian and Taluntain's Staff = 9 Fireballs per rest... and all spell bindings he can get besides that, making him a caster basically. Damaging spells work with Deathblows (not sneak attack). Fireballs on Deathblows = double damage = Direballs.

[AeonsLegend]

 

I have not quite understood yet, what makes the rogue good.

A cipher does better weapon damage and the lower accuracy can be easily compensated by perception and early accuracy gloves from raedrics.

On top of that cipher has it's powers.

Rogue and ranger are the only classes I would rebalance, that being said rangers are way better than rogues.

 

I feel like Obsidian couldn't find a way to make Rogues fit their archetype (super high single target damage glass cannon) that also worked in their ruleset. I also wonder whether there was less enthusiasm for Rogues in Obsidian because their abilities just seem dull compared other classes. When I look at the list of abilities for Monks and Barbarians I get excited, but when I look at the Rogue's list I just don't care. I hope that if PoE2 has a Rogue class* they redesign it in some way to make it more fun.

 

As for Ranger I feel that they are saved by Stormcaller and the usefulness of their pet as a disposable tank. Also ever since I took the Adra Dragon from lightly wounded to dead with Sagani alone (run away, take a shot, graze, run away, take a shot, graze, repeat) I can't hate on her.

 

*I know suggesting that an RPG not have a Rogue class is blasphemy, but when the stealth, lock picking and trap detecting skills aren't tied to the Rogue class, it's not really clear why a Rogue should be different from, say, a different Fighter build.

 

 

There's many things they could do with a rogue without relying on stealth. Teleport backstab, with the option to teleport back on command. AoE dagger flourish. AoE teleport attacks. Preferably adding hard cc in later levels such as petrification by throwing a small AoE bottle. They're not super original, but can be implemented as signature attacks for a rogue. I don't know, just thinking stuff up.

[JerekKruger]

There's many things they could do with a rogue without relying on stealth. Teleport backstab, with the option to teleport back on command. AoE dagger flourish. AoE teleport attacks. Preferably adding hard cc in later levels such as petrification by throwing a small AoE bottle. They're not super original, but can be implemented as signature attacks for a rogue. I don't know, just thinking stuff up.

 

 

Okay so more specifically, I think (at least originally) Rogues were supposed to be non-mystical/magical. Shadow Step is kinda mystical, but apart from that every single one of their abilities is basically physical. Remove of relax that restriction and I agree that Rogues could have a load of cool powers, including things like you've suggested.

[Boeroer]

For me, it would be OK if the rogue's abilities were just a bit stronger and his starting values not so crappy in comparison to fighters and monks. Sure, ACC is nice, but why have deflection and endurance to be so low that they fall on their face every time an enemy looks at them. They have no spells to make up for this like for example wizards or ciphers have. Atm, ciphers are the better rogues.

 

Making Deep Wounds stack would be an easy and powerful change.

 

Making Finishing Blow blow less. That "more damage the more dead the target" thing is just bad. Make it so that it gives a massive dmg bonus when the target has <=50% endurance.

 

Make Smoke Cloud also weaken or blind targets.

 

Make Shadow Step trigger Backstabs.

 

Give certain weapons like daggers and stilettos bonus Backstab damage or give them auto annihilation when a rogue wields them or even better: give them higher base damage with a rogue.

 

A talent that heightens crit damage like the Merciless Hand. Maybe both of the crit converter abilities/talents could do this.

 

Add some rogue only items that are really good. For example a belt or gloves that add a 10% corrosion/poison lash to every weapon.

 

Make stealth worthwhile: let the rogue enter stealth again during combat. Maybe 1/encounter.

 

Make traps worthwhile when rogues lay them. For example they could have higher damage or do sneak attack. Let rogues lay more than one trap. Let them drop traps in encounters.

 

Such things would keep them non-mystical while making them interesting. Then make Clear Out per encounter so fighters get some love, too and we're good.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

Maybe increase deflection to fighter level and remove deflection penalty from his modal ability and give him an innate penalty to damage resistance instead or even lower endurance. For me a Rogue should be about preventing damage not about soaking it and if he does get hit it hurts.

 

Also maybe give him a deflection penalty when wearing armor heavier than medium and give him a deflection bonus when wearing light.

Edited October 21, 2016 by AeonsLegend

[rheingold]

hmmm, Rogues mainly suffer on Potd, on any other level they are actually very good. I've had a couple of playthroughs on hard with a rogue and he has certainly held his own. With out min/maxing or using a shield. Done an insane amount of damage and is actually quite fun to manage. But they struggle quite a bit on Potd. Not sure what the solution is though... because buffing them overall would make them overpowered on any other difficulty.

 

EDIT: Boeroer's point about starting stats is a good one. Giving them better endurance, health and deflection would help quite a bit.

Edited October 21, 2016 by rheingold

[AeonsLegend]

hmmm, Rogues mainly suffer on Potd, on any other level they are actually very good. I've had a couple of playthroughs on hard with a rogue and he has certainly held his own. With out min/maxing or using a shield. Done an insane amount of damage and is actually quite fun to manage. But they struggle quite a bit on Potd. Not sure what the solution is though... because buffing them overall would make them overpowered on any other difficulty.

 

It's not that they are bad, it's that other classes do better and they don't have the short comings of a Rogue. As it stands, if you want a Rogue in your party you pick a Cipher.

 

A Rogue currently is extremely one dimensional. It's based on stats only, their kit does not give them a real edge so when enemy stats are racked up suddenly they feel crappy. A Cipher for instance has tons of cc to add to a similar damage output of a Rogue. 

[rheingold]

^^^ On hard or below, nothing comes remotely close to a dual wield rogue. Which is their function. Could be that you just don't like their playstyle? But they are not weak, and there is no class which is on the same planet in terms of single target dps. Cipher certainly can't compete dps wise. But moving to Potd becomes a major problem. The extra accuracy, defense and health that opponents receive pretty much neutralizes all a rogues positives and enhances the negatives.

[Raven Darkholme]

I don't think a cipher shines less on hard.

Because of lower enemy deflection their lower accuraccy will matter less.

Their damage is higher than rogues without needing afflictions.

On top they can have the crossclass talents for 15% extra damage on sneak attacks.

They have powers which will also be easier to crit with on hard instead of potd.

[rheingold]

I don't think a cipher shines less on hard.

Because of lower enemy deflection their lower accuraccy will matter less.

Their damage is higher than rogues without needing afflictions.

On top they can have the crossclass talents for 15% extra damage on sneak attacks.

They have powers which will also be easier to crit with on hard instead of potd.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that Ciphers don't shine on hard. Just that they don't compare in my experience to a rogue. I find that crowd control on hard and below is a tad overated. Rogues just kill things really quickly. Yes they are pretty one dimensional but as far as doing what they were designed to do they are very efficient.

[Raven Darkholme]

Yes rogues hit hard, but ciphers hit harder is what I'm trying to say.

40% bonus damage through soul whip and 1st talent.

A rogue gets 50% but only on Sneak attacks, for cipher I can pick the Apprentice's sneak attack and I'm at 65% on sneak attacks and 40% on all other attacks.

Powers are only additional and you can do a lot of damae with them too and also buff your attack speed like crazy with time parasite.

[AeonsLegend]

 

I don't think a cipher shines less on hard.

Because of lower enemy deflection their lower accuraccy will matter less.

Their damage is higher than rogues without needing afflictions.

On top they can have the crossclass talents for 15% extra damage on sneak attacks.

They have powers which will also be easier to crit with on hard instead of potd.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that Ciphers don't shine on hard. Just that they don't compare in my experience to a rogue. I find that crowd control on hard and below is a tad overated. Rogues just kill things really quickly. Yes they are pretty one dimensional but as far as doing what they were designed to do they are very efficient.

 

 

I don't see why a Rogue two shotting an enemy is different from a Cipher, Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian or Monk two shotting an enemy. Sure the single target damage is higher on a Rogue, but it's only marginally so. Damage is something that is available to all classes. Other classes just add something else.

 

As Raven states, the Cipher actually has a more consistent damage output than a Rogue. +40% damage on all hits + 15% when sneak attacking. They can also deny an enemy attacking them and steal resistances, stats and attack speed.

[bigwillystyle]

Raven, do you feel differently after Deathblows enters the picture?  Thinking about it, probably not.  By the time Deathblows enters the picture, the Cipher is wrecking with Amplified Wave.

[Raven Darkholme]

Deathblows is nice, but for my personal playstyle having to set up 2 afflictions, even tho easily acomplished is still inferior to just straight attacking.

Bear in mind I haven't played with a full party after my very first pt.

One thing to be said about deathblows is its compatibility with spells.

As Boroer mentioned direballs are quite awesomesauce.

[Boeroer]

Deathblows with "normal" weapons is not as powerful as one might think. Especially with weapons which you normally would associate with rogues, like daggers and such - small, fast weapons. That's because their base damage is low. Deathblows "only" doubles that base weapon damage. And you need to keep up 2 afflictions for that. Normally an enemy is dead anyway when it suffers from 2 afflictions (most of the time one of them is a disabling one) - it may take a little more time to finish it off but disabled is disabled.

It would be cooler if Deathblows would simply upgrade Sneak Attack - so that you still need only one affliction.

 

Remember that you get Deathblows at level 11 - a level at which the barb gets Heart of Fury for example. And nobody can seriously argue that those two are on par.

Druids ca get a +50% or even +60% lash - now that's powerful especially with those hefty base damage from claws. Lashes are not claculated with weapons base damage, but the actual damage they do. Crits and all dmg mods will be taken into account. That's why shifted druids normally do 100+ damage hits at highter levels without the need to cause any affliction and fuzz like that. And on top he casts spells like Relentless Storm which prevent that he gets hit.  And you then can even pimp that lash damage with things like Scion of Flame. So the druid outperforms the rogue not only in single target damage, but he also has spells which deal AoE damage, cause CC and whatnot. I'd say it's not fair. If a rogue is supposed to be THE single target dps machine he should have something with less fuzz and more ooph. Or he needs more staying power. Or something else that makes him unique. THe only thing in whoich rogues are good is the earlygame because they start with that +50% damage bonus which is great that early in the game.

 

With anything that has high base damage Deathblows is nice of course - like guns. But they are so slow that when you miss the point where an enemy has 2 afflictions you have to wait forever for your second shot - and who knows if the 2 afflcitions are still up then. It's a micromanagement hell.

 

That's why Fireballs or most other spells become nasty things when Deathblows get applied. Instead of 30 damage a Fireball would do 60. It's basically double damage with spells. A high level rogue is the prefect scroll user because of that. But I don't think that was intended.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

I also would rather see deathblows working on 1 affliction, since you can almost always flank a target without too much fuzz.

[bigwillystyle]

I also would rather see deathblows working on 1 affliction, since you can almost always flank a target without too much fuzz.

 

That would be some much less micro-management and so much more fun.  I may try out this Direballs thing and see if it hits the fun register.

[Dr <3]

The main difference between rogue and chiper ( and druids) are the full attacks. Really rogue can pile up a lot of them ( blind attack, hobble attack, fearsome strike, sap).

And you can chain them. So also if " on paper" chiper deals only 10% dmg less ( whip + stingy whip vs base sneack attack), actually with the full attacks the rogue kills the target before. Chiper can attack 3 times or use a couple of powers. You usually can kill someone before sap stun effect wear off.

 

But i agree about most of boerer previous ideas, rogue would be more fun if they had a bit more "staying power", now are too glassy. Anyway a nice class for solo ( expecially if you want also pacifist achivement) because they forced you to play the game in a totally different mood.

[Raven Darkholme]

The main difference between rogue and chiper ( and druids) are the full attacks. Really rogue can pile up a lot of them ( blind attack, hobble attack, fearsome strike, sap).

And you can chain them. So also if " on paper" chiper deals only 10% dmg less ( whip + stingy whip vs base sneack attack), actually with the full attacks the rogue kills the target before. Chiper can attack 3 times or use a couple of powers. You usually can kill someone before sap stun effect wear off.

 

But i agree about most of boerer previous ideas, rogue would be more fun if they had a bit more "staying power", now are too glassy. Anyway a nice class for solo ( expecially if you want also pacifist achivement) because they forced you to play the game in a totally different mood.

This theory about full attacks sounds to me like it only works in quite low level with a) targets having less health and b) there not being enough targets to use up those abilities.

I don't think a level 16 rogue has as much slaying power as a cipher of the same level, even if the cipher only uses a handful powers for selfbuff and then stops using focus and keeps meleeing (which is ofc not advised).

This gets crazier if you solo and the rogue can't easily deathblow anymore, since flanking only works with summons and you have to inflict other afflictions.