Pool: should chiper be able to cast some power on himself?

[Dr <3]

Just want to know your opinion.

I have ever thought that the fact that the chiper always need a companion to use his best moves was a bit of nonsense.

This have no impacts on "normal" game ( since you are usually ranged and you target your allies naturally instead of yourself), but is a real pain in solo, where you can at maximum use them on figurines.

[Slack83er]

I think it works fine as it is. The "need" to play solo is just a way to test the power of your character imo. I enjoy positioning my toons and let the cipher take advantage of it...

[Boeroer]

There is no balancing reason why the cipher shouldn't be able to cast things like Pain Block or Going Between on himself. Wizards or priests can buff themselves into the sky and go melee, a druid has spiritshift and a few buffs/healings that work on the party AND on himself - only the cipher has this limitations.

 

It's not that those powers are especially powerful if you cast them on yourself or something. There may be some arguments against it if you refer to inner game logic (using the souls of others and whatnot). That may be the reason why all other self buffs of the cipher (like Psychovampiric Shield, Wild Leech and Time Parasite) need an enemy to be cast onto.

 

But one could introduce a talent or ability that allows self buffs without using the souls of others and name and describe it accordingly. Ha - you could even create a power where you could project your soul into enemies (a bit like Thaos can) while your body is left in a kind of stasis. You could then cast your own powers on yourself. That would be funny and would also work around that inner game logic.

[Raven Darkholme]

I voted it works fine.

That being said you and Boroer are absolutely right, there is no balancing reason for those spells being allied only.

It's just not good game balance to make a character more powerful for solo, especially since the cipher can solo already, when I soloed the first time which was my 2nd overall playthrough btw I used a cipher.

You might not be able to do some of the upscaled content solo, but it's optional anyway.

A game like this should be focused on parties and frankly I think it's way too easy for full parties, even for half parties it doesn't feel challenging at all. (I assume the same goes for duos.)

[Ben No.3]

Yes, although it may make monk/cipher the King of solo... Never tries ditchomos twins or did a lot of experiments with ciphers in general?... Boeroer and everyone else who played them, how strong would they be as a solo-self buffer?

I just feel like there are a lot of self buffers already... Would it change balance that much?

Edited October 8, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Raven Darkholme]

It wouldn't make them a lot stronger.

The strongest spell of all Ecto echo requires an ally to work either way.

Amplified Wave is not that spammable anymore.

You can get healing thru enough other means than painblock, ofc the 10 dr would be kinda nice.

[Blades of Vanatar]

It seems to me Self buffing is not what defines a Cipher. The change to do so would only heighten their power. Definitely not necessary. Their current state of power is already at a Rockstar level. Every time I include a Cipher in my party I get bored as they glide through the game with ease.

 

Now a Difficulty option for Soloing only powers to be enabled would be cool, kind of like the tougher content they added with the WM expansions, but no way that happens this late in the game. That is a futile exercise in wishful thinking.

[Boeroer]

It wouldn't make them that much stronger. You always have to "pay" as a cipher - in focus. You you'd have to decide whether to use Psychovampiric Shield OR Painblock for example. When you decide to use both you'll lack the focus for CC or damage. To be honest: if the cipher wouldn't have such cheap mind control spells soloing would be a lot harder. They are the main reason it's easy. I can't see why wizard can have a "free" Iron Skin 1/encounter if he wishes, but the cipher can never cast Pain Block on himself. You could say that the wizard's buffs have limitations, too: they are only working on himself - while the cipher buffs are only for others - as a kind of principle. And that's a fair point. That's why I suggested a talent or the power I decripbed above. You'd have to pay for this "extension" - in talent points or focus.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Boeroer

[Dr <3]

Boeroer nailed the point with better words than mine...

 

Wizard can buff himself to hell and beyond (Eldiricht aim, merciless gaze, vital essence, Citzel martial power,...) but he CAN'T buff others, this is a kind of balance.

 

All other "buffers" , like druid and priest can cast the buffs on allies AND themselves, even chanter now can boost the attributes of allies AND of his own with invocation

 

Only the chiper (and the paladin for a couple of commands) are unable to autobuff,   even worse the chiper is unable to use some of his best damage dealing powers (soul shock, amplified thrust, amplified wave) if he has no allies around (and charmed enemies DOESN'T COUNT as allies).

Just for clarity:  for autobuff i clearly intended the "pure" buffs, like going between or pain attunement, not the "leeching buffs" (psychovampiric shield, wild leech, ecc) that works absolutely fine as they are.

 

But don't get me wrong, the whole point of this discussion is NOT to make the chiper MORE powerful is solo, is just to give him in solo THE SAME power that he has in a party, all without changing much how it works in the party at the moment. 

For sure you are able to finish the game in solo as it is, but at the moment playing with him feels like to solo with priest but without crowns of the faithful or minor avatar or a wizard without DAOM.

[Raven Darkholme]

Well the cipher does a lot more damage without spells than both wizard and priest, which is quite a fair point in soloing if you don't enjoy to spam rest.

Also as Boroer pointet out the mind control is just crazy strong even the level 1 power never loses it's charm, if you'll excuse the pun.

[Jojobobo]

I think it's weird people vote no on questions like this, as all it is doing is enabling more options as opposed to blocking them off (and they made Chanter Invocations affect them recently, the Cipher situation is perfectly analogous).

 

However people needlessly do vote contrarily, and then quite possibly when trying to present the case to the devs the more or less 50-50 vote doesn't look convincing. I did a similar poll for adventures being completable on solo (renting people out, or whatever, to complete), and still there was a large no vote - which is stupid as it only effects solo play in the first place so most people who voted no weren't even affected by the result. I think they were asking me to make solo easier, which isn't the case as there really isn't any items that could be considered more overpowered than the current set available in solo - they just provide more options.

 

What I'm getting to is, polls suck, and the fact this has 4 no votes is ridiculous. This is a solid idea, and though this was never meant to be a solo game people clearly like to play that way (like me) so it makes no sense to deny the option. To give the option cost (a dedicated ability) as Boeroer mentioned is an even better idea.

[Raven Darkholme]

Your post doesn't make a lot of Sense to me Jojobobo, you say people who vote no are not affected since they do not solo, which is clearly not true in my case.

I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one.

I also explained above why I voted no.

The cipher is already very strong solo AND in parties, strengthening him in any way will just make party play even more ridicolous and as pointed out before the actual op spells in solo already work and are not the ones who only work on allies.

At the end of the day an unbalanced game loses replay value and for people who think it is too hard there are always difficulties below PotD.

[Kaylon]

Yes, I find the buffs working only on allies being a bad design because they become useless while soloing. The same applies to the stronghold quests.

[Jojobobo]

Your post doesn't make a lot of Sense to me Jojobobo, you say people who vote no are not affected since they do not solo, which is clearly not true in my case.

I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one.

I also explained above why I voted no.

The cipher is already very strong solo AND in parties, strengthening him in any way will just make party play even more ridicolous and as pointed out before the actual op spells in solo already work and are not the ones who only work on allies.

At the end of the day an unbalanced game loses replay value and for people who think it is too hard there are always difficulties below PotD.

I think you're more the exception than the rule, but yes I think your opinion on it is well reasoned even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

 

I don't think balance would really be affected, as the Cipher is already using these strong buffs on other party members. I'm not really sure what combo people necessarily would think would make the Cipher loads better if they had access to these options. Beyond a balance point, I think for consistency's sake it would be better - it must be confusing for new players when Priest and Chanter spells affect themselves and others where as the Cipher's don't because... reasons? 

Edited October 9, 2016 by Jojobobo

[Raven Darkholme]

Well we said before there is no logical balance reason for the current state of those abilities.

I personally think it's nice for the cipher to be an exception here, but as said before since cipher wouldn't get much stronger by adding those abilities on self, it doesn't really matter in the end.

I probably should have voted I don't care at all, but that option didn't sound like my opinion at all.