Should the EU become the United States of Europe? What do you think?

[Ben No.3]

Which is pretty close

[Ben No.3]

But give me one reason why the USE should not be eager to help its economically weak regions. One reason that is not "Germans" (cause in Germany, we do)

Edited October 6, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Chilloutman]

But give me one reason why the USE should not be eager to help its economically weak regions. One reason that is not "Germans" (cause in Germany, we do)

I am just telling you, and no its not only germany, french would be probably same. it would cost huge amounts of money only on welfare, your utopistic view where politicians from wealthy nations openly admit that they will pay poor nations welfare by reducing it to own citizens is funny - they would not be elected again

[Ben No.3]

 

But give me one reason why the USE should not be eager to help its economically weak regions. One reason that is not "Germans" (cause in Germany, we do)

I am just telling you, and no its not only germany, french would be probably same. it would cost huge amounts of money only on welfare, your utopistic view where politicians from wealthy nations openly admit that they will pay poor nations welfare by reducing it to own citizens is funny - they would not be elected again

If Europe is one country, they'd be paying welfare to their own poor citizens, which is exactly what is happening right now in Germany. It comes with high taxes for those who have money, but it works

[obyknven]

 

Oby those links are history, they are irrelevant to what Germany is nowadays and all the positive it does

 

This appears to be something you Russians dont understand, your past doesn't define you and I would encourage you to think more about real challenges in the year 2016 and stop worrying about the past

 

"

Thank you!

 

BruceVC alter ego detected. Du sprechen sie Deutsch?

 

[Ben No.3]

So I ask you once again: why not?

[Nonek]

Trying to hold all of those ancient nations together, and meld so many wildly different ethics and cultures into one isn't going to be easy, and personally I can't really see the point. Then again, that's your decision and not an Englishmans business.

 

Thank the Lord Allmighty.

 

P.S. Don't go mad and make us have to put a bit of stick about again.

[Chilloutman]

So I ask you once again: why not?

well as you didn't counter any of my argument I will play along and tell you - Yes I want Euronation where there is rainbow everyday without rain and everyone is riding pink ponies

[Ben No.3]

 

So I ask you once again: why not?

well as you didn't counter any of my argument I will play along and tell you - Yes I want Euronation where there is rainbow everyday without rain and everyone is riding pink ponies

Rainbows are nice indeed, but okay let me repeat.

 

It is true that no politician who gave free money to other poorer countries citizens would not get reelected. I agree completely with you on that. It is unfair, but people are awful.

But if Europe was a single country, there would be no poorer countries, just poor citizens. Which is entirely different. I cannot speak for France, but in Germany, a welfare system run by government sponsored by high middle/upper middle/upper class taxes is up and running for years.

 

Yes, it is unlikely. But this could actually work. It is the best hope we have...

Edited October 6, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Chilloutman]

 

 

So I ask you once again: why not?

well as you didn't counter any of my argument I will play along and tell you - Yes I want Euronation where there is rainbow everyday without rain and everyone is riding pink ponies

 

Rainbows are nice indeed, but okay let me repeat.

 

It is true that no politician who gave free money to other poorer countries citizens would not get reelected. I agree completely with you on that. It is unfair, but people are awful.

But if Europe was a single country, there would be no poorer countries, just poor citizens. Which is entirely different. I cannot speak for France, but in Germany, a welfare system run by government sponsored by high middle/upper middle/upper class taxes is up and running for years.

 

Welfare is always paid by middle/upper class taxes everywhere - period

 

and as I explained to you, economy would collapse as same rules would have to be applied everywhere, so if you are small business in poor country, you will go out, because you will not be able to pay minimal wage to your employees and its just single basic example, if you want European nation, you first need to have roughly same economical and social equivalency around Europe

Edited October 6, 2016 by Chilloutman

[redneckdevil]

Just take a look at America and how we deal with "differences" and the poor to get an idea on how the USoE would handle.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

So this is an idea that I find extremely interesting, and I really want to see what you guys think. Please do give reasons in the comment section. Thanks for any shared opinions

I am a huge supporter of Germany and Merkel and how Germany after WW2 has been able to recreate its identity and become very significant again. And it did this  not through military superiority but hard work and economic transformation.

 

Lol, your German economic "miracle" is  just using of Jewish Nazi gold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flick_family

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flick_affair

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bank

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-11081786

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34358783

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2663635/Revealed-How-Nazis-helped-German-companies-Bosch-Mercedes-Deutsche-Bank-VW-VERY-rich-using-slave-labor.html

 

etc.

 

Yep, proscriptions, slave labor and plundering of conquered lands is so profitable.

 

Oby those links are history, they are irrelevant to what Germany is nowadays and all the positive it does

 

This appears to be something you Russians dont understand, your past doesn't define you and I would encourage you to think more about real challenges in the year 2016 and stop worrying about the past

 

This is one of the main reasons your economy is such a mess, misplaced attempts to " restore the great Russian bear  "

 

History lol. These money\funds is not history. Foundation of German economical "miracle" is Nazi warcrimes, without they no modern Germany/EU even exist (for example  almost all modern German roads has been build by slaves during Hitler's time ). Don't make mistake - i don't criticise Germans for it - wars is extremely profitable - is just objective reality. Actually Russia  do want make some such economically reasoned wars also - even war against such beggar-country as Ukraine deliver so much profit for us (cheap Ukrainian migrants working for food in Siberia, land grab, population grab + 2M, oil resources grab, plants/factories grab ). Just imagine how profitable can be war against prospered Eropean states (Sweden for example) in comparsion with this.

 

Oby you make me laugh because your posts seem so irrational and illogical compared to the real issues Russia is dealing with 

 

But lets say the USA  became isolationist do you think Russia would ever target countries like Sweden that have no military compared to russia?

Edited October 6, 2016 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

Just take a look at America and how we deal with "differences" and the poor to get an idea on how the USoE would handle.

When you say differences do you mean the current political rift in the USA?

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

So I ask you once again: why not?

well as you didn't counter any of my argument I will play along and tell you - Yes I want Euronation where there is rainbow everyday without rain and everyone is riding pink ponies

Rainbows are nice indeed, but okay let me repeat.

 

It is true that no politician who gave free money to other poorer countries citizens would not get reelected. I agree completely with you on that. It is unfair, but people are awful.

But if Europe was a single country, there would be no poorer countries, just poor citizens. Which is entirely different. I cannot speak for France, but in Germany, a welfare system run by government sponsored by high middle/upper middle/upper class taxes is up and running for years.

Welfare is always paid by middle/upper class taxes everywhere - period

 

and as I explained to you, economy would collapse as same rules would have to be applied everywhere, so if you are small business in poor country, you will go out, because you will not be able to pay minimal wage to your employees and its just single basic example, if you want European nation, you first need to have roughly same economical and social equivalency around Europe

But exactly that is only truly reachable with a country. So the laws of each "old" county need to still apply for the first couple of decades while gradually disappearing and being replaced by European laws.

Also while yes those classes usually pay welfare, they don't necessarily do so through taxes.

 

Anyway, I'm enyoing this discussion

Thx for some fun afternoon

Edited October 6, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Ben No.3]

Oh by the way, one question: do you guys prefer direct or parlamentarian democracy?

[BruceVC]

Oh by the way, one question: do you guys prefer direct or parlamentarian democracy?

I dont really understand the difference ? How would you describe them as in pros and cons 

[Chilloutman]

Oh by the way, one question: do you guys prefer direct or parlamentarian democracy?

mix, if not possible direct

[Meshugger]

 

 

But that is exactly what a unified Europe would solve, they HAD to care because it's one country

You really believe that by some magic all employers across EU would start paying same salaries, there would be same level of social state without looking at economic power of those countries? Do you really think that it would not destroy economies of such countries? and of course I am not only talking about getting it on Germany level, but to support it, at same time German salaries to go down? There would be riots everywhere...

No, I'm saying a unified Europe will solve the problems the euro created, and it will definitely give a boost to ALL its members. BTW yes the most Germans would help... We have good welfare, good free health care, good free education...

 

 

Am I only one getting a laugh out of this? Through out history the German people conquered Europe one way or the other, but now suddenly they claim to not exist and that national borders are just an organizational problem, but effectively it would still result in Germania being created, even in a crypto-state. "Wir schaffen das!", indeed.

 

Go to bed, Merkel, you're drunk.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Meshugger

[Ben No.3]

 

 

Oh by the way, one question: do you guys prefer direct or parlamentarian democracy?

I dont really understand the difference ? How would you describe them as in pros and cons

Direct democracy is when the people themselves decide much more. For example they elect the president, and they may be more referendums. Pro: most democratic form con: the fate of the state lies in the hand of the people, which isn't necessarily the best thing (trump for example)

 

Parlamentarian democracy: the people elect only the parties for parliament, the parliament elects the president and there are probably no referendums. Pro: the fate of the state lies in the hand of politicians put in place by the party, so no trump. Con: less democratic

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

But that is exactly what a unified Europe would solve, they HAD to care because it's one country

 

You really believe that by some magic all employers across EU would start paying same salaries, there would be same level of social state without looking at economic power of those countries? Do you really think that it would not destroy economies of such countries? and of course I am not only talking about getting it on Germany level, but to support it, at same time German salaries to go down? There would be riots everywhere...

No, I'm saying a unified Europe will solve the problems the euro created, and it will definitely give a boost to ALL its members. BTW yes the most Germans would help... We have good welfare, good free health care, good free education...

 

Am I only one getting a laugh out of this? Through out history the German people conquered Europe one way or the other, but now suddenly they claim to not exist and that national borders are just an organizational problem, but effectively it would still result in Germania being created, even in a crypto-state. "Wir schaffen das!", indeed.

 

Go to bed, Merkel, you're drunk.

 

 

 

But that is exactly what a unified Europe would solve, they HAD to care because it's one country

 

You really believe that by some magic all employers across EU would start paying same salaries, there would be same level of social state without looking at economic power of those countries? Do you really think that it would not destroy economies of such countries? and of course I am not only talking about getting it on Germany level, but to support it, at same time German salaries to go down? There would be riots everywhere...

No, I'm saying a unified Europe will solve the problems the euro created, and it will definitely give a boost to ALL its members. BTW yes the most Germans would help... We have good welfare, good free health care, good free education...

 

Am I only one getting a laugh out of this? Through out history the German people conquered Europe one way or the other, but now suddenly they claim to not exist and that national borders are just an organizational problem, but effectively it would still result in Germania being created, even in a crypto-state. "Wir schaffen das!", indeed.

 

Go to bed, Merkel, you're drunk.

Have you ever been to Germany? We learned from our mistakes (we finally did), and we were able to create a country with all the bad outcomes in mind, so we figured out ways how to avoid them the best way possible. And while the Germans were certainly awful people in the past, I think it's safe to say we managed to create a pretty good country. But do prove me wrong

[BruceVC]

 

 

Oh by the way, one question: do you guys prefer direct or parlamentarian democracy?

I dont really understand the difference ? How would you describe them as in pros and cons

Direct democracy is when the people themselves decide much more. For example they elect the president, and they may be more referendums. Pro: most democratic form con: the fate of the state lies in the hand of the people, which isn't necessarily the best thing (trump for example)

 

Parlamentarian democracy: the people elect only the parties for parliament, the parliament elects the president and there are probably no referendums. Pro: the fate of the state lies in the hand of politicians put in place by the party, so no trump. Con: less democratic

 

Okay got it, South Africa is a parliamentary Democracy 

[Ben No.3]

So what do you prefer? Personally, I think there is a too big danger in direct democracy, so I prefer parliamentary.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

But that is exactly what a unified Europe would solve, they HAD to care because it's one country

You really believe that by some magic all employers across EU would start paying same salaries, there would be same level of social state without looking at economic power of those countries? Do you really think that it would not destroy economies of such countries? and of course I am not only talking about getting it on Germany level, but to support it, at same time German salaries to go down? There would be riots everywhere...

No, I'm saying a unified Europe will solve the problems the euro created, and it will definitely give a boost to ALL its members. BTW yes the most Germans would help... We have good welfare, good free health care, good free education...

 

Am I only one getting a laugh out of this? Through out history the German people conquered Europe one way or the other, but now suddenly they claim to not exist and that national borders are just an organizational problem, but effectively it would still result in Germania being created, even in a crypto-state. "Wir schaffen das!", indeed.

 

Go to bed, Merkel, you're drunk.

 

 

 

But that is exactly what a unified Europe would solve, they HAD to care because it's one country

You really believe that by some magic all employers across EU would start paying same salaries, there would be same level of social state without looking at economic power of those countries? Do you really think that it would not destroy economies of such countries? and of course I am not only talking about getting it on Germany level, but to support it, at same time German salaries to go down? There would be riots everywhere...

No, I'm saying a unified Europe will solve the problems the euro created, and it will definitely give a boost to ALL its members. BTW yes the most Germans would help... We have good welfare, good free health care, good free education...

 

Am I only one getting a laugh out of this? Through out history the German people conquered Europe one way or the other, but now suddenly they claim to not exist and that national borders are just an organizational problem, but effectively it would still result in Germania being created, even in a crypto-state. "Wir schaffen das!", indeed.

 

Go to bed, Merkel, you're drunk.

Have you ever been to Germany? We learned from our mistakes (we finally did), and we were able to create a country with all the bad outcomes in mind, so we figured out ways how to avoid them the best way possible. And while the Germans were certainly awful people in the past, I think it's safe to say we managed to create a pretty good country. But do prove me wrong

 

Ben as I mentioned please dont get offended by the comments about Germany from  some members

 

I have had this debate with various members since the necessary austerity was implemented by the EU troika on the PIGS countries

 

In summary there is this unreasonable criticism towards Germany, people dont appreciate what Germany has done or its contribution towards the EU

 

I work in the financial sector and many people are very aware of how important Germany is but our forum friends just see the negative :

[BruceVC]

So what do you prefer? Personally, I think there is a too big danger in direct democracy, so I prefer parliamentary.

To be honest because of the history of Apartheid South Africa isn't a good example of a functional parliamentary system as we are dealing with some historical challanges that tend to create certain negative political dynamics ...so I dont know whats best ?

[Ben No.3]

Thanks for your support but it seems same goes for the UN... Everyone knows it's problems, no one talks about its somewhat successful war on hunger, the successes of WHO and UNICEF...

Edited October 6, 2016 by Ben No.3