[CLASS BUILD] Monksterlasher (elemental lashing & retaliating offensive tank)

[r2d23]

I am a bit unclear on the mechanics of Torment's Reach but it appears that the upcoming patch 3.04 is going to nerf the ability so that it doesn't proc off every enemy that is hit. What does that mean for the monk? The extra crushing damage will not be applied to everyone affected by the cone or any other lashes that are present on the weapon?

 

How will this change affect this particular the build and the monk class in general?

[Jojobobo]

I am a bit unclear on the mechanics of Torment's Reach but it appears that the upcoming patch 3.04 is going to nerf the ability so that it doesn't proc off every enemy that is hit. What does that mean for the monk? The extra crushing damage will not be applied to everyone affected by the cone or any other lashes that are present on the weapon?

 

How will this change affect this particular the build and the monk class in general?

It means very little, it just stops Torment's Reach being rather stupidly overpowered and makes it regular powered (which is still pretty damn powerful). The extra crush damage is still applied to everyone in the cone, but if I'm understanding the bug correctly each one of those guys won't then produce their own cone behind them (so if you have three guys in a row currently, the first is hit by regular Torment's Reach as is the second, but the second also produces his own cone, so the third is hit by both the first and second cone and so takes stupid damage. If there's a forth guy, he's in for a world of hurt, and so on).

 

Overall it changes nothing, either to this build or to the class, apart from making Torment's Reach less of an instant win button with high Int. I'm currently playing an Int 3 Monk (which I think is okay with the bug in the current patch as the shenanigans are kept fairly minimal at that level of Int, but if it gets out of hand I'll stop using it until the fix) and it works just fine. With this build in particular, Retaliation is such as integral part (people hitting you take a crap load of damage) that this build I doubt would much feel the pinch as Torment's Reach is just a small part of what the build does.

 

I also wouldn't say it's strictly a nerf either, just making the mechanics work as they intended they should, which was always pretty strong. This patch from what I can tell seems to be fixing a lot of related problems, I'd wager to say bash proc-ing additional times with Carnage is more or less the same problem.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Jojobobo

[Boeroer]

Maybe they also nerf it in a way that the AoE of Torment's Reach no longer triggers on-hit and on-crit effects like barb's carnage does - because that' very powerful, too. Especially with Full Attacks. It doesn't work with Enervating Blows, but with weapons like Godansthunyr or We Toki you can stun- or prone-lock whole groups if your ACC (compared to enemies defenses) is high enough.

 

This also doesn't change much for this build, because it doesn't use such weapons.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Boeroer

[Jojobobo]

Maybe someone with the Beta should check if this is the case? It does seem like the problems are related (stuff proc-ing when it shouldn't - Torment's Reach itself or the weapon effects) so hopefully the fix treats all these issues as one. I'm a lowly GoG using worm unfortunately so I can't check myself.

[Boeroer]

I could do it - but honestly atm I'm too lazy for all that fuzz, switching branches and stuff. I just hope for the best.

[r2d23]

Interesting. Thanks for the explanation. I was just planning to respec Zahua into this build to check it out (hopefully, the lack of build-in fire shield wouldn't hurt the overall performance much).

[Jojobobo]

Though Battle-Forged is definitely a major perk to this build, using Zahua means you can dedicate you head slot to something like Retaliation Garodh's Chorus to achieve similar effects. Overall it should work pretty similarly.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Jojobobo

[Boeroer]

Yes - only that Battle Forged does like 20 times more damage at lvl 16.

[Jojobobo]

How does normal Retaliation compare? On my current Monk build I'm going much more tanky so I wanted to go Wild Orlan again, especially as the helmet slot adds more to defences (and you can go for Garodh's Chorus Retaliation)?

[Boeroer]

Well it does a lot less damage than Battle Forged. Battle Forged scales with level, so at higher levels you can clearly see the difference, esp. because Turning Wheel's +50% bonus works way better with higher base damage - to overcome DR and such. With the Monksterlasher I saw a lot of 100+ hits from it. Scion of Flame does it's part, too. It raises both Battle Forged AND Turning Wheel's damage.

 

With normal retaliation you need high DR bypass (from Ryona's Vembraces, Vuln. Attack, maybe even Effigy's Resentment) to make it worthwhile. And even then it's damage is still a bit whimpy. But you don't have to be at 50% endurance, which is a plus of course. I forgot if Enervating Blows works with retaliation. If it does, it would be a nice plus. You could wear that Lavander thingy and use retaliation to apply both sickened and weakened if you get hit. This will help a lot with Force of Anguish and such things.

[Jojobobo]

I guess if I'm going for a true tank build Battle-Forged is a little at odds with that (in that I'm trying to keep my defences sky high and my health for the most part up), so I'll probably stick with normal Retaliation even if the damage is significantly worse (or possibly I won't bother with Retaliation at all now). I'd say Enervating Blows would work, but I'm too lazy to test, and besides I don't really have room for it with what I have in mind.

 

With what you said about Torment's Reach proc-ing on crit effects, with Enervating Blows it would seem that would make them an even better stun-locker than a Barbarian in some ways (with Weakened being much better than Sickened). They also wouldn't have the accuracy penalties of Carnage, and you could give them the Executioner's Hood to keep them all constantly Frightened with the Will debuff.

[Livegood118]

Any further insight in to this build Boeroer after the nerf to sabre base damage?

 

Seems to me like you'd get more bang for your buck with the increased base damage from fists and how that interacts with the lashes.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Livegood118

[Boeroer]

Since the monk doesn't have that many dmg mods (like rogue, cipher or figher) the sabre nerf makes not much difference. And the lashes don't care if the overall damage comes from base damage or dmg mods.

Fists have some accuracy issues - for example the ACC bonus of Transc. Suffering doesn't work with the AoE cone of Torment's Reach. 

[Livegood118]

Was just doing some rough sums with a little bit of rounding:

 

At level 16 with 22 Might and Sandals of the Forgotten Friar Fists =

 

10 – 15 Damage * 1.36 (Might) + .2 (Savage Attack) + .15 (Sneak Attack) = 1.71 modifier

+12 (+2) Damage = *1.36 = 19

= 17 – 25 + 19 Damage

= 36 – 44 Damage @ +18 Accuracy

 

Legendary Bittercut under the same circumstances = 

 

11 – 16 * 1.36 (Might) + .55 (Legendary) + .2 (Savage Attack) + .15 (Sneak Attack) + .2 (Spirit of Decay) + .2 (Sabre)

11 – 16 * 2.66 damage modifier

= 29 – 42.5 + Lash@1.3 (9 – 13 extra damage) @ 15 Accuracy

 

Fists give you an average initial damage roll of 40 and Legendary Bittercut gives you an average initial damage roll of 36, though, of course, you're able to throw a an additional lash on top of bittercut because it's enchantable. 

 

Just doing some sums based on these averages it seems that fists will, in general, give you more bang for your buck in terms of unmodified damage the more lashes you can stack on em'. However the fact that Bittercut's got that tasty dual Corrode/Slash damage can't be discounted.

 

Fists are still way faster than Bittercut, but that's not really that relevant under this build which is primarily designed to belt out Torment's Reach. Also don't forget the boot slots could be replaced with something else while using bittercut i.e. Shod-in-Faith.

 

So, if you're lazy like me and you can't be bothered micromanaging your monk to belt out Torment's reach all the time, or want to save on enchanting materials or give bittercut to someone else, fists will probably work a fair bit better for you imo (assuming you don't dump dex). If you don't mind spamming TR, which also means you can dump dex a bit, I'd say Bittercut likely has the edge.

 

Fortunately switching between the two isn't really that much of a problem as to use both you really only need Spirits of Decay and Weapon Focus: Ruffian. There's also those accuracies issues but I'm not sure exactly what the problem is.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Livegood118

[Boeroer]

MIG also works for the dmg bonus of Transc. Suff. and Sandals by the way.

 

Is unmodified unarmed damage 10-15? I thought it's lower. Like 5-8 or something, can't remember.

 

You have to take into account that crits don't do as much damage with fists. The +0.5 crit modifier only works with the base damage of fists. Same is true for grazes. In the later game you will do more crits than grazes if you're not solo.

 

They are crush only, while Bittercut has two damage types.

 

But the biggest downside is that fists's ACC bonus don't apply to most abilitites of the monk: Torment's Reach, Flagellanth's Path, Force of Anguish - those will not get the ACC bonus. WHich is lame. They are still very good weapons (maybe the best for monk) for early and mid game.

[peddroelm]

10-15 monk  unarmed "weapon"/fist  BDR (base damage range)

5-8 non-monk kith unarmed "weapon"/fist   BDR .

 

(I'm trying to establish a common abbreviation system to build the weapon/ability damage mechanics "compendium" on top of ..)

[Boeroer]

A right. The monk got a special treatment. No wonder Novice's Suffering generally sucks.

[Livegood118]

MIG also works for the dmg bonus of Transc. Suff. and Sandals by the way.

 

Is unmodified unarmed damage 10-15? I thought it's lower. Like 5-8 or something, can't remember.

 

You have to take into account that crits don't do as much damage with fists. The +0.5 crit modifier only works with the base damage of fists. Same is true for grazes. In the later game you will do more crits than grazes if you're not solo.

 

They are crush only, while Bittercut has two damage types.

 

But the biggest downside is that fists's ACC bonus don't apply to most abilitites of the monk: Torment's Reach, Flagellanth's Path, Force of Anguish - those will not get the ACC bonus. WHich is lame. They are still very good weapons (maybe the best for monk) for early and mid game.

 

Given the nerf to sabres the dichotomy on crits between fists and sabres on crits seems to be smaller than ever – i.e. 50% of 10–15 vs 50% + 15% (Durgan Steel) of 11–16.

 

My understanding was that crits were not calculated in reference to modified damage before DR but rather were calculated as a %of base damage.

 

That thing about the accuracy on Monk Abilities really stinks – and it's a shame it's probably going to make it in to the final version of the game ... maybe one last hail mary in the 3.04 thread?

[Boeroer]

Yes, with the monk's fists the crit/graze thing is not bad at all. I was referring to normal unarmed damage (which the monk doesn't have).

 

I don't think they will hotfix this - it's in the game from the beginning and some reports were made - nothing happened so far.

[Livegood118]

Well maybe this can get fixed by the community at some point in the future – now that the game is nearly "finished" we should put together a big list of remaining bugs and maybe get an official patch project going. We could kidnap Loren Tyr and force him to work on it 

 

Fists are still pretty damn good for auto-attacking though all things considered imo

Edited November 18, 2016 by Livegood118

[Boeroer]

That's true. And I love The Long Pain. They don't have the ACC and graze/crit issues (I guess), work in melee and ranged and work with nearly all monk abilites. Nowadays, I use it on every monk I play.

[Livegood118]

Yeah jesus the long pain is crazy – 24-36 base damage at level 16 ...

 

Just saw your Witchdoctor build: can easily add +90% base damage to these things ... which means around 45.5 – 68.5 which is nuts and seems to more than make up for the absence of turning wheel. Are we sure that this is the base damage on the weapons and not the weird +unarmed damage parameter that's used to boost up Novice/Transcendant Suffering?

 

Average modified hit with those would be 57 which to me seems to more than make up for the absence of turning wheel and you can still stack... 

 

+ 50% crushing lash from Torment's Reach (+28.5 damage)

+ 30% shocking lash from Lightning Strikes (+17.1 damage)

+ 20% raw lash from Blood Testament (+11.4 damage)

 

Which means on a typical hit you'd blast them for 114 Damage before DR on a non-crit. Ouch!

 

And, even better, you don't have to constantly keep up 10 wounds to get the most bang for your buck from them. 

 

I gotta try these things out ...

[Boeroer]

Do it!

[Dr <3]

Yo i'm revamping this build, since i'm trying to create my own version: the punchbag monk

 

The concept is to kill opponen mostly using retaliation-kind effects.

 

So i have gone with a fire god-like, max con, max str, max per, dump dex

 

Items : yen whisper sword, sura supper plate, iron circle, hiros mantle, ring of protection, looped rope, shood of faith, blood testament, ryona brestplate

 

talents: sword & shield, vulnerable attack, savage attack, dualism mortal presence, veteran recovery, gallant focus, scion of flame, apprentice sneack attack, bear fortitude

 

Abilities: turning wheel, iron wheel, force of anguish, rooting pain, torment reach, suffering something and the weakening strykes (side-note: rooting pain targets fortitude, so weakened effect proved very useful)

 

main points are: 

get + 6 con from item, go around with round 450 life and high DR,  have good defences with a 140 in fortitude

 

actually it works better than expected, expecially after that the flame retaliation kicks in...

 

BUT

 

there are an awful lot of bugged things around, hence a fast resume:

- the DR penetration from vulnerable attack (and eventually from Ryona bracers) APPLY to normal attacks and retaliation from racial, shield and mantle; DOES NOT APPLY to rooting pain sadly

- blood testament gloves are uber bugged, works more or less 50% of the time, sometimes they work for a battle and not in the next, also in absence of saving or  reloads . Also when it works, like  the DR penetration, works for retaliation effects but NOT on rooting pain

- Weakening strykes gets applyed from normal attacks, main target in torment reach (not others in the cone) and from racial retaliation, up to now i have NOT observed it to be applyed after a retaliation effect from items (shield & mantle).

- Weakening stykes itself is also pretty bugged, sometime an enemy gets hit by the weakening effect but the effect is stated as suppressed in enemies tab. No idea why. Also if it is the only active effect.

- Stacking retaliation + effect on hit (binding rope, lavander wreath, Erlyn coat) usaully mean that the effect on hit does not work

[Braven]

Barbarian works good for retaliation too, since they have a class ability that stacks with all the other retaliation, a healing ability, frenzy (big health boost) and the highest natural endurance/health of any class. One thing I learned from the barbarian play through is that Aspirant's mark is really good with retaliation. The deflection debuff helps the accuracy of all those retaliation sources.

 

Monk has higher DR potiential, though. Wonder if that makes up for the lesser endurance. Do the lashes help retaliation?