Should the Dark Side be more 'seductive'?

[Ivan the Terrible]

One thing that was noticeably different between KOTOR and the D20 game is the nature of Dark Side vs. Light Side.

 

In KOTOR, the two are measured evenly; one becomes 'Light Side' by performing lots of good actions and one becomes 'Dark Side' by performing lots of evil actions. If you want to give up being 'Dark Side', you just have to act like a goody-good for some time, and vice versa.

 

By contrast, in the D20 game, the Dark Side doesn't just sit around waiting for you to perform evil actions. It entices you into them. You can call on the Dark Side to empower you when you're hard-pressed in combat, or to enhance one of your force powers, in exchange for a Dark Side point; the baby steps that eventually lead you over the cliff, essentially. The Dark Side is 'easier'; it allows for more power in the short-term, and in the long term starts collecting it's due by withering away your body and enslaving you more and more. Once you fall completely to the Dark Side, it takes a monumental action of redemption to bring you back.

 

Would the game benefit from showing this better? For example, being able to call on the Dark Side for more power in a particularly tough situation in exchange for another Dark Side point? Withering your physical attributes as you fall deeper into the abyss (beyond just turning all pale and veiny)? Should it be more difficult to return to the Light Side once you've gone 'evil' enough? After all, walking the path of the Light is difficult, while giving in to the Dark is oh so easy....

[Darque]

I tend to agree.

 

If I recall, you get a LOT of power from the darkside then eventually it kinda levels off where the Lightside starts slow but maxes out farther.

 

Kinda like on a 1-10 scale.

 

Lightside starts at 1 and ends at 10

 

Darkside starts at 3 and ends at 8

 

Still powerful, but the consuming nature tends to create diminishing returns.

[Ivan the Terrible]

I tend to agree.

 

If I recall, you get a LOT of power from the darkside then eventually it kinda levels off where the Lightside starts slow but maxes out farther.

 

Kinda like on a 1-10 scale.

 

Lightside starts at 1 and ends at 10

 

Darkside starts at 3 and ends at 8

 

Still powerful, but the consuming nature tends to create diminishing returns.

I wouldn't go that far; after all, if you make it so the Dark Side eventually becomes weaker than the Light, Dark Siders will bitch up a storm.

 

However, if I remember correctly from D20, some of your physical stats (strength, dexterity, constitution) start to wither if you go deep enough into the Dark Side. KOTOR just showed this graphically; it might be interesting if this 'withering' had an effect in-game beyond appearances in the sequel.

[Darque]

That's why I said the powerlevel is an 8 max

 

The consumption.

[newc0253]

it's definitely a good idea to make the DS more tempting, but it's an open question whether it's better to do that by way of a game mechanic (as in d20) or through the story itself.

 

i hate alignment, alignment sliders, and - by extension - LS/DS sliders. at the same time, i recognize that at least Star Wars has a justifiable excuse for a slider (unlike D&D).

 

i don't know that any slider or mechanic can capture the idea of "the lure of the DS" properly & it's probably better to have a story that forces you into situations where it is easy for a good character to turn in desperation or anger to the dark side.

[Darque]

i don't know that any slider or mechanic can capture the idea of "the lure of the DS" properly

 

Maybe an in game "call on the darkside" action?

 

Something that gives the character a buff, at the expense of darkside points?

 

At least until they're in the darkside (red background in KotOR)?

 

That could work

[Gorth]

Heh, nice ideas. B)

 

Give the dark side more bang for the buck, at the cost of max hp, con, str etc.

 

I'll be the bookmaker and take bets. How many little Vader wannabe's out there, are going to complete the game before being reduced to dust ?

 

Seriously, it does sound intriguing.

 

Shouldn't the light side have something similar, perhaps to a lesser degree though ? It's not as if their powers are necessarily "easy" to use ?

[Darque]

Shouldn't the light side have something similar, perhaps to a lesser degree though ? It's not as if their powers are necessarily "easy" to use ?

Isn't that the point?

[Ivan the Terrible]

Some ideas:

 

- Like Darque said, a 'call on Dark Side' power or equivalent available to your character. Use it, and it boosts your force powers considerably for a brief time (or, alternatively, just a single stat or force power you really need at the time)....and in return gives you a Dark Side point. The farther you fall to the Dark Side, however, the weaker it becomes until it disappears altogether....the Dark Side has claimed you.

 

- Withering of physical stats. When one reaches Dark Side 'mastery', the three physical attributes should be significantly reduced as the Dark Side eats away at your body.

 

- In compensation for this, lower experience points needed to advance in level for Dark Side characters.....at least at first. 'Quicker' and 'Easier', remember?

 

- MANY more Light Side points needed to emerge from the Dark than Dark side points needed to sink from the Light. The D20 system of 'Dark' characters doesn't work without stripping the character of free will, but it should always be much easier to go Dark than to go Light.

 

If I can ever find that FREAKING SITH SOURCEBOOK, I'll offer some other ideas.

[Opus131]

Actually, that's one of the coolest ideas i ever seen for this game.

 

Too bad it won't be implemented though...

[Darque]

If I can ever find that FREAKING SITH SOURCEBOOK, I'll offer some other ideas.

I have one :D

 

That doesn't help you though <_<

 

I think I'll dig mine up and start rereading it.

[Drakron]

- Like Darque said, a 'call on Dark Side' power or equivalent available to your character. Use it, and it boosts your force powers considerably for a brief time (or, alternatively, just a single stat or force power you really need at the time)....and in return gives you a Dark Side point. The farther you fall to the Dark Side, however, the weaker it becomes until it disappears altogether....the Dark Side has claimed you.

 

Calling on the darkside means using a dark side power, unfortunatly SW:KotOR gone the "Jedi Knight" system that always been poorly repesentative of the force.

 

- Withering of physical stats. When one reaches Dark Side 'mastery', the three physical attributes should be significantly reduced as the Dark Side eats away at your body.

 

Bad idea ... no really a bad idea since that means a purly offensive character is being screwed over twice because force enchement powers are usually lightside and so he is forced to use offensive force powers.

 

- In compensation for this, lower experience points needed to advance in level for Dark Side characters.....at least at first. 'Quicker' and 'Easier', remember?

 

B-R-O-K-E-N

 

It only works assuming people will all play guardians, consulars not only do not get penalized by it at all but also get XP bonus and since dark side powers tend to be offensive powers.

 

- MANY more Light Side points needed to emerge from the Dark than Dark side points needed to sink from the Light. The D20 system of 'Dark' characters doesn't work without stripping the character of free will, but it should always be much easier to go Dark than to go Light.

 

The effects on SW:KotOR already penalized "switching sides" and lets not start to penalize people that want to redeem their character and that sugestion is pure penalizing and with no support whatsoever.

[genghis]

i totally disagree with caping the dark side at 8

 

the light and dark sides are supposed to be equals and opposites!

 

and u are forgetting one piece of advice

"do not under estimate the power of the dark side" :ph34r:

[Darque]

Please note that Drakron tends to dislike all ideas so take it with a grain of salt

[Darque]

i totally disagree with caping the dark side at 8

 

the light and dark sides are supposed to be equals and opposites!

 

and u are forgetting one piece of advice

"do not under estimate the power of the dark side" :ph34r:

Please reread what I posted

 

I never said the darkside was weak.

 

Now those who use it on the other hand tend to get consumed, and that's another matter Which in turn is why things appear to be "capped".

 

If what I posted didn't convey that, then consider this a clarification.

[newc0253]

- Like Darque said, a 'call on Dark Side' power or equivalent available to your character. Use it, and it boosts your force powers considerably for a brief time (or, alternatively, just a single stat or force power you really need at the time)....and in return gives you a Dark Side point. The farther you fall to the Dark Side, however, the weaker it becomes until it disappears altogether....the Dark Side has claimed you.

if you wanted to represent it through a game mechanic, this would probably be the best way - like becoming the Slayer in BG2 = a good way to beat tough fights but you start turning evil.

 

what i dislike about that approach is that it makes the slider a guage of roleplaying,

 

it'd be better to implement it through the story itself. problem is, it's hard to create visceral emotions in a CRPG setting, such that you would forgo what you know to be the more sensible course of action because you're overcome by anger, fear, hatred, etc.

[Drakron]

I am not a adept of the system BioWare used, personaly I rather have the force points were I could use then to open a door or get rid of a DS point.

 

That is were the diference lies, if you gain a DS because you wanted some kind of reward you would have to waste a precious force point to get rid of it, one that could save your character live down the path or do something truly heroic (like manage to convice a Hutt to help us with a impossible diplomacy check).

 

And his proposed system is broken, no consular is going to care about his Str score being 8 when he his 2 levels above what he sould be at that point.

[Darque]

That is were the diference lies, if you gain a DS because you wanted some kind of reward you would have to waste a precious force point to get rid of it, one that could save your character live down the path or do something truly heroic (like manage to convice a Hutt to help us with a impossible diplomacy check).

 

That's the point of the darkside, fast rewards but at a high price.

 

And his proposed system is broken, no consular is going to care about his Str score being 8 when he his 2 levels above what he sould be at that point.

 

That's where tweaking comes in.

 

Make it hitpoints or forcepoints and I bet the consular would be more careful

[Ivan the Terrible]

Bad idea ... no really a bad idea since that means a purly offensive character is being screwed over twice because force enchement powers are usually lightside and so he is forced to use offensive force powers.

 

True, but remember how Sith like Vader compensated? Armor, equipment, etc. that boost their physical stats. Even if he was withered husk, inside his armor he was powerful. Just provide Dark Side-only equipment....masks, robes, etc.....that enhance physical properties to make up for the decline. Especially if that equipment makes them look even more inhuman; that's a nice touch.

 

Besides, I'm not talking about plunging into all 3s for the physical stats. Just a point lost here and there to show that the Dark Side is taking it's toll in exchange for the faster advancement.

 

B-R-O-K-E-N

 

It only works assuming people will all play guardians, consulars not only do not get penalized by it at all but also get XP bonus and since dark side powers tend to be offensive powers.

 

If anything, Consulars will suffer the worst from the decline in physical stats. It's bad enough having a Constitution of 8, but if that plunges two or three points because of my body withering....

 

Really, I think your main argument is not against my suggestion but against the imbalance of force powers in KOTOR, with Dark Side Guardians getting no physical boosts while Dark Side consulars get all the good offensive powers.

 

The effects on SW:KotOR already penalized "switching sides" and lets not start to penalize people that want to redeem their character and that sugestion is pure penalizing and with no support whatsoever.

 

The support comes from mood rather than gameplay. To become Dark is much easier than to hold true to Light.....and once the Dark Side has you, it's difficult to break free from it.

[Ivan the Terrible]

That's where tweaking comes in.

 

Make it hitpoints or forcepoints and I bet the consular would be more careful

Yes, these are all just ideas taken from D20 which don't entirely fit, so tweaking would be neccesary.

 

But let's not throw out the baby of the 'Lure of the Dark Side' with the bathwater of potential imbalancing.

[Darque]

Oh, I agree

 

I'm on your side in this remember

[Ivan the Terrible]

Oh, I agree

 

I'm on your side in this remember

Yeah, I know, the latter comment directed mostly at Drakron.

[Darque]

Ah, I got ya

[Bless]

 

Why are we being picked on? Yes, the Dark Side shouldn't be made up of just bullying, it should be real DS things that "take you down that path". But er, I don't play light because I just can't force myself to do it. Sheesh, I don't wanna have to play as a Jedi just to be able to finish the game.

I really don't feel like rotting away half-way through the game. I dunno, it might be bad :ph34r:

 

I mean, your ideas and all are interesting . . . if you're of the Jedi inclination. What about those of us who aren't?

[Ivan the Terrible]

[quote name='Bless