WM2: matched helmet and armor sets

[Ichthyic]

so, just noticed that there are now matching helms to go with 3 popular armors (scars, adra, sanguine).

AFAICT, there are no added objective benefits to having a "complete set" though. 

anyone notice anything different?

 

[Crucis]

Not that I've noticed.  There doesn't seem to be any special benefit to using the matched set. But that's ok.  One thing that does kind of stink is that I usually have Pallegina in my party, usually wearing one of those popular heavy armors.  But because she's a god-like, she can't wear any of the matching helmets.    Upside though, Pallegina looks really, good in either the green plate armor or the white shiny armor.  (I'm not a fan of the red armor myself, but I know that many are.  I don't like the look or the frenzy benefit.)

 

On a side note, I think that the -1 to movement speed penalty on the White Crest Plate is a great idea for all plate armor.  It's a way to make wearing plate armor have a "cost" without having some sort of DEX penalty or something else.  And after all, plate armor should be heavy and cumbersome, so a movement penalty seems like a small price to pay for the level of protection that plate armor offers.

[Ichthyic]

yeah, i love the look of the adra armor, but the special on it i find only useful for things like fighting dragons, and even that when I am underleveled for the encounter.

I wish it were easier to mod this game.  I know you can change the models that various items use, but I have yet to figure out which of the files inside a given asset bundle has that particular information.

the only person I have seen do it successfully did it with a hex editor. and playing around with changing multiple files until he found the right set of bytes.   too much bother.

 

[JerekKruger]

Actually, whilst obviously heavy, plate isn't particularly slowing in real life since it's designed to distribute its weight well to minimise the effect. The main difference is that someone wearing plate will fatigue more quickly, not that they'll be much slower.

 

Interesting side fact, the weight of kit modern US soldiers carry in combat is quite a bit heavier that a typical plate harness.

[dainbramage]

On a side note, I think that the -1 to movement speed penalty on the White Crest Plate is a great idea for all plate armor.  It's a way to make wearing plate armor have a "cost" without having some sort of DEX penalty or something else.  And after all, plate armor should be heavy and cumbersome, so a movement penalty seems like a small price to pay for the level of protection that plate armor offers.

 

It'd be nice from a balance perspective as well, since plate armour has 2 more dr than brigandine for the same speed penalty (and doesn't follow the 1 dr for 5% malus like everything else)

[Blunderboss]

That armor with Overhelming Wave is nuts almost as good as the cloak who procs Overhelming Wave after u get crit

Edited April 4, 2016 by Blunderboss

[Crucis]

 

On a side note, I think that the -1 to movement speed penalty on the White Crest Plate is a great idea for all plate armor.  It's a way to make wearing plate armor have a "cost" without having some sort of DEX penalty or something else.  And after all, plate armor should be heavy and cumbersome, so a movement penalty seems like a small price to pay for the level of protection that plate armor offers.

 

It'd be nice from a balance perspective as well, since plate armour has 2 more dr than brigandine for the same speed penalty (and doesn't follow the 1 dr for 5% malus like everything else)

 

 

I personally don't understand why Brigandine has the same recovery penalty as Plate.  I don't see why the devs didn't shift it down to 45%, and drop all other armors down by 5% at the same time, so that there was a single type of armor at each increment of 5% between 0 and 50% recovery.

 

 

[Crucis]

Actually, whilst obviously heavy, plate isn't particularly slowing in real life since it's designed to distribute its weight well to minimise the effect. The main difference is that someone wearing plate will fatigue more quickly, not that they'll be much slower.

 

Interesting side fact, the weight of kit modern US soldiers carry in combat is quite a bit heavier that a typical plate harness.

 

I have a hard time imagining that plate was designed to distribute its weight, etc. etc.  That seems like much too advanced a concept for the middle ages.  I suspect that the degree to which weight happens to be distributed is merely a natural consequence of putting some armor on every part of the wearer's body.

 

And frankly, I find it hard to believe that carrying that much weight of armor wouldn't be cumbersome and reduce one's mobility.  Oh, I suppose if one was a 18+ Might character, the weight of plate armor might seem barely noticeable.  But I'd think that a more average person would find plate to be very encumbering. Of course, any sort of attempt to codify this would probably be more complex than it's worth.

 

As for modern US soldiers, I don't know exactly what you mean by "kit".  But if you mean their backpacks, wouldn't they take them off before they were about to engage in actual fighting (assuming they were able to do so)? 

 

 

[JerekKruger]

I have a hard time imagining that plate was designed to distribute its weight, etc. etc.  That seems like much too advanced a concept for the middle ages.  I suspect that the degree to which weight happens to be distributed is merely a natural consequence of putting some armor on every part of the wearer's body.

 

Well it depends on exactly what you mean by designed. Certainly no one ran the calculations to optimise it perfectly, but a process of trial and error improved the designs slowly but surely so that late medieval plate was surprisingly cleverly designed. Don't forget that this was something designed to protect people from death and, until the very latest periods where plate was fielded, primarily to protect the lives or rich people. That gives a good reason for your artisans to design the absolutely best plate they can in order to secure the lucrative business of selling this stuff to the nobility.

 

But even before that people were aware of the importance of distributing weight to some extent. Generally when wearing a mail shirt or hauberk a warrior would wear a thick leather belt tightly around their waist and allow the mail to sag over it, taking the weight off their shoulders and putting it onto their hips thus making it far less tiring to fight in. Generally speaking when it comes to situations where peoples' lives are on the line technology improves pretty fast.

 

And frankly, I find it hard to believe that carrying that much weight of armor wouldn't be cumbersome and reduce one's mobility.  Oh, I suppose if one was a 18+ Might character, the weight of plate armor might seem barely noticeable.  But I'd think that a more average person would find plate to be very encumbering. Of course, any sort of attempt to codify this would probably be more complex than it's worth.

 

 

You can find any number of videos of people wearing reproduction plate and running, doing cartwheels and other acrobatic things on YouTube. People tend to overestimate the weight of a full plate harness: they'd typically weigh no more than 25kg (about 55lbs), often less (particularly for suits designed for fighting on foot) and this would be distributed over the whole body both by design and necessity as you pointed out above. Of course going for long periods of time wearing 25kg of gear would be tiring, but the evidence is that over shorter periods of time it doesn't limit mobility much at all.

 

Now of course, the only people wearing plate would have been professional soldiers of some sort, so whilst not necessarily Might 18+ characters it's probably fair to assume they were of above average strength and endurance and had trained wearing their armour.

 

As a side note, plate worn for jousting tournaments was much thicker and heavier. You might wonder why you wouldn't want the absolute best protection in battle but the answer is simply that it has to be a compromise. This heavy jousting armour probably did slow the wearer, and it definitely reduced vision, two things that a battlefield soldier couldn't afford. Actual field plate would be thinner in less important areas, focussing it's protection on the head, neck and torso. It also made heavy use of cleverly designed slanted surfaces which made it very hard to strike a square blow against the plate, and naturally angled in such ways to direct blows away from vital areas. It was actually really clever stuff.

 

As for modern US soldiers, I don't know exactly what you mean by "kit".  But if you mean their backpacks, wouldn't they take them off before they were about to engage in actual fighting (assuming they were able to do so)? 

 

Partly certainly, but the body armour, weapon, spare ammunition, grenades, small med kits etc. all add up to a surprising amount of weight.

[dainbramage]

 

Actually, whilst obviously heavy, plate isn't particularly slowing in real life since it's designed to distribute its weight well to minimise the effect. The main difference is that someone wearing plate will fatigue more quickly, not that they'll be much slower.

 

Interesting side fact, the weight of kit modern US soldiers carry in combat is quite a bit heavier that a typical plate harness.

 

I have a hard time imagining that plate was designed to distribute its weight, etc. etc.  That seems like much too advanced a concept for the middle ages.  I suspect that the degree to which weight happens to be distributed is merely a natural consequence of putting some armor on every part of the wearer's body.

 

Why would that be too advanced a concept? People in the middle ages weren't any dumber. Technology and education, sure, but ensuring the weight is distributed evenly is a concept that doesn't require either.

 

As a side note, plate worn for jousting tournaments was much thicker and heavier. You might wonder why you wouldn't want the absolute best protection in battle but the answer is simply that it has to be a compromise. This heavy jousting armour probably did slow the wearer, and it definitely reduced vision, two things that a battlefield soldier couldn't afford. Actual field plate would be thinner in less important areas, focussing it's protection on the head, neck and torso. It also made heavy use of cleverly designed slanted surfaces which made it very hard to strike a square blow against the plate, and naturally angled in such ways to direct blows away from vital areas. It was actually really clever stuff.

 

Combat plate was already strong enough, it didn't need to be thicker. Combat against plated opponents was basically wrestling them until you could stick a dagger in a joint, because it didn't matter how hard (or with what) you struck any actual plate. Whereas in jousting momentum and a steady arm were more important, so weight (as long as the horse can carry it) and restricted mobility were advantageous.

[JerekKruger]

Combat plate was already strong enough, it didn't need to be thicker. Combat against plated opponents was basically wrestling them until you could stick a dagger in a joint, because it didn't matter how hard (or with what) you struck any actual plate. Whereas in jousting momentum and a steady arm were more important, so weight (as long as the horse can carry it) and restricted mobility were advantageous.

 

Certainly nothing barring a incredibly lucky shot from a 1000lb+ draw weight arbalest was going to actually punch through plate (I'm not even sure about that one to be honest) before firearms appear, but blunt weapons like maces and war hammers could transfer a lot of force through plate and cause injuries to the flesh beneath, and spiked weapons like the spike on a war hammer could dent plate sufficiently to cause damage too, though in both cases this is primarily targeted towards the head of the opponent.

 

But yeah, swords became more and more specialised towards thrusting and less about cutting as plate improved, culminating in swords like the estoc which are basically long spikes. That doesn't mean you wouldn't take swings still (well perhaps not with an estoc) because hitting someone in the head well with a 2kg iron bar is going to daze them even through a helmet, perhaps giving you the opportunity to stab them through a joint etc., but yeah you aren't doing so with the intention of actually cutting through the armour because that was basically impossible.

 

As for jousting armour, you're probably right about weight and rigidity being advantageous in jousting, but I think they were also specialised to give maximum protection against potentially injury during jousting. Frog helms like you see in PoE were essentially only used for jousting, and if you think about it you can see why.

[Crucis]

 

I have a hard time imagining that plate was designed to distribute its weight, etc. etc.  That seems like much too advanced a concept for the middle ages.  I suspect that the degree to which weight happens to be distributed is merely a natural consequence of putting some armor on every part of the wearer's body.

 

Well it depends on exactly what you mean by designed. Certainly no one ran the calculations to optimise it perfectly, but a process of trial and error improved the designs slowly but surely so that late medieval plate was surprisingly cleverly designed. Don't forget that this was something designed to protect people from death and, until the very latest periods where plate was fielded, primarily to protect the lives or rich people. That gives a good reason for your artisans to design the absolutely best plate they can in order to secure the lucrative business of selling this stuff to the nobility.

 

But even before that people were aware of the importance of distributing weight to some extent. Generally when wearing a mail shirt or hauberk a warrior would wear a thick leather belt tightly around their waist and allow the mail to sag over it, taking the weight off their shoulders and putting it onto their hips thus making it far less tiring to fight in. Generally speaking when it comes to situations where peoples' lives are on the line technology improves pretty fast.

 

And frankly, I find it hard to believe that carrying that much weight of armor wouldn't be cumbersome and reduce one's mobility.  Oh, I suppose if one was a 18+ Might character, the weight of plate armor might seem barely noticeable.  But I'd think that a more average person would find plate to be very encumbering. Of course, any sort of attempt to codify this would probably be more complex than it's worth.

 

 

You can find any number of videos of people wearing reproduction plate and running, doing cartwheels and other acrobatic things on YouTube. People tend to overestimate the weight of a full plate harness: they'd typically weigh no more than 25kg (about 55lbs), often less (particularly for suits designed for fighting on foot) and this would be distributed over the whole body both by design and necessity as you pointed out above. Of course going for long periods of time wearing 25kg of gear would be tiring, but the evidence is that over shorter periods of time it doesn't limit mobility much at all.

 

Now of course, the only people wearing plate would have been professional soldiers of some sort, so whilst not necessarily Might 18+ characters it's probably fair to assume they were of above average strength and endurance and had trained wearing their armour.

 

As a side note, plate worn for jousting tournaments was much thicker and heavier. You might wonder why you wouldn't want the absolute best protection in battle but the answer is simply that it has to be a compromise. This heavy jousting armour probably did slow the wearer, and it definitely reduced vision, two things that a battlefield soldier couldn't afford. Actual field plate would be thinner in less important areas, focussing it's protection on the head, neck and torso. It also made heavy use of cleverly designed slanted surfaces which made it very hard to strike a square blow against the plate, and naturally angled in such ways to direct blows away from vital areas. It was actually really clever stuff.

 

As for modern US soldiers, I don't know exactly what you mean by "kit".  But if you mean their backpacks, wouldn't they take them off before they were about to engage in actual fighting (assuming they were able to do so)? 

 

Partly certainly, but the body armour, weapon, spare ammunition, grenades, small med kits etc. all add up to a surprising amount of weight.

 

 

A.  Given how costly I'd imagine that plate armor was, I'd expect that its use was somewhat limited to noblemen/knights.

 

B.  And rather than thinking in terms of "distributing weight" in the modern sense, it wouldn't surprise me if these medieval plate armor designers were thinking more in terms of good balance (but I could be full of hot air on that).  And as you point out, designing armor in such a way as to make it difficult to land blow squarely.

 

C. I'm not sure how one would define a "professional soldier" in a medieval setting.  Oh, sure, some knights would probably qualify.  But so would a bunch of plain ol' soldiers and I doubt that they were wearing plate.  I'd think that it would be too costly to outfit dozens or hundreds of medieval grunts in plate.  Even chain mail or breast plates might be too costly to be used in large numbers.  I wouldn't be surprised if those professional grunts were wearing something closer to leather armor, simply due to cost issues.  I will say that it wouldn't surprise me if some noble's house guard was outfitted in snazzier but more costly armors, if only for appearance's sake.

 

D.  Re Modern solders.  Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me that, even after losing their backpacks, the other stuff they'd be wearing still added up to a not insignificant amount of weight.  But the things you mention are necessary items in combat.  And I have little doubt that modern soldiers train while wearing all that gear to get used to the weight while moving.

 

E. Even if a person wearing plate retains a significant portion of their agility, etc. that's not the same thing as saying that plate wouldn't slow down a person's actual running speed while wearing plate compared to a similar person wearing lighter armor.  In short, I have a hard time believing that a person in plate would be able to keep up with a person wearing padded armor, assuming that the two people were equally fleet a foot without armor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JerekKruger]

 

A.  Given how costly I'd imagine that plate armor was, I'd expect that its use was somewhat limited to noblemen/knights.

 

B.  And rather than thinking in terms of "distributing weight" in the modern sense, it wouldn't surprise me if these medieval plate armor designers were thinking more in terms of good balance (but I could be full of hot air on that).  And as you point out, designing armor in such a way as to make it difficult to land blow squarely.

 

C. I'm not sure how one would define a "professional soldier" in a medieval setting.  Oh, sure, some knights would probably qualify.  But so would a bunch of plain ol' soldiers and I doubt that they were wearing plate.  I'd think that it would be too costly to outfit dozens or hundreds of medieval grunts in plate.  Even chain mail or breast plates might be too costly to be used in large numbers.  I wouldn't be surprised if those professional grunts were wearing something closer to leather armor, simply due to cost issues.  I will say that it wouldn't surprise me if some noble's house guard was outfitted in snazzier but more costly armors, if only for appearance's sake.

 

D.  Re Modern solders.  Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me that, even after losing their backpacks, the other stuff they'd be wearing still added up to a not insignificant amount of weight.  But the things you mention are necessary items in combat.  And I have little doubt that modern soldiers train while wearing all that gear to get used to the weight while moving.

 

E. Even if a person wearing plate retains a significant portion of their agility, etc. that's not the same thing as saying that plate wouldn't slow down a person's actual running speed while wearing plate compared to a similar person wearing lighter armor.  In short, I have a hard time believing that a person in plate would be able to keep up with a person wearing padded armor, assuming that the two people were equally fleet a foot without armor.

 

 

A. Up until the late Middle Ages/Renaissance yes. The Italians and Germans (and later other European countries) started to develop techniques to "mass" produce plate and allow it to be equipped to more and more soldiers. Given the level of technology in PoE I'd say that it represents something similar to this level of technology.

 

B. No that's fair. I doubt anyone used the term "distributing weight" back then.

 

C. Once again, by the late Middle Ages you start to see a development of professional soldiery. Partly it's mercenaries and partly you start to see nations realising that training and equipping the non-Knightly classes well turns out to be a rather useful thing to do.

 

D. Oh sure, but similarly knights (or at least most knights) would have done the same. The lesson that practising whilst wearing armour would have been learnt and passed on from father to son over the years.

 

E. Well I'd expect that someone wearing plate will run a slower 100m sprint that if they weren't wearing it, but the actual sort of running you do in combat isn't generally all out sprinting (even in a charge) since the ground is unlikely to be even and you want a certain level of cautiousness when charging angry enemies with pointy things. The one situation I can see it making a difference would be during an all out rout, but it's surprising to see from history that pursuers in routs were usually not that eager (they were probably tired, they couldn't afford to abandon formation the way the fleeing enemy could and they were probably happier taking it easy and letting the enemy flee).

[Crucis]

Good stuff, Jerek.  I guess that I just think that having plate armor reduce a character's overall movement rate a little would be a nice balancing factor compared to lesser armors, as well as injecting a small degree of (semi?) realism into the mix.  Not a huge deal.

[JerekKruger]

Good stuff, Jerek.  I guess that I just think that having plate armor reduce a character's overall movement rate a little would be a nice balancing factor compared to lesser armors, as well as injecting a small degree of (semi?) realism into the mix.  Not a huge deal.

 

To be honest, I don't disagree. Personally I'd prefer plate to simply have a steeper recovery penalty, either 55% or 60%, but a -1 movement could work too (and could be offset by the talent if you wanted). I just got distracted is all 

[Crucis]

 

Good stuff, Jerek.  I guess that I just think that having plate armor reduce a character's overall movement rate a little would be a nice balancing factor compared to lesser armors, as well as injecting a small degree of (semi?) realism into the mix.  Not a huge deal.

 

To be honest, I don't disagree. Personally I'd prefer plate to simply have a steeper recovery penalty, either 55% or 60%, but a -1 movement could work too (and could be offset by the talent if you wanted). I just got distracted is all 

 

 

Honestly, one of my gripes with armor in PoE is that there's too much incentive to play one's characters either all-up armored with plate or go to the other extreme with very little armor.  The armor system doesn't give any particularly good reason to play medium armors other than doing so for more role playing reasons, like I do.  I wish that there were some factors in the armor system that created an incentive for some characters to wear medium armor, other than what special effects some enchanted medium armors might have.

 

In my most recent party, I could have had Sagani wearing one of the good padded armors to get a lower recovery, but I decided to stick with her wearing hide armor (the Superb hide armor, in particular) for role playing reasons.  It just felt right for her character as both a ranger and someone from a more woodsey culture to prefer wearing hides to wearing a more "civilized" set of padded armor.  On a side note, I think that it would have been nice if there'd been a set of "padded" armor or even "robes" that looked like the Tundra clothing you could buy in Stalwart (along with the Tundra hood).  It might have been technically "padded armor" even if it looked more like a bunch of stitched together hides.  It would have been a nice touch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regarding a small movement penalty for wearing plate, frankly, I don't think that it's really much of a penalty at all most of the time.  Maybe it's just my own play style, but I tend to let the enemy come to me.  And as such, movement speed tends to matter very little to most of my characters.  Oh, I played Zahua in my recent party, and played him as a light armor wearing, who wore the boots of speed as well as took the Long Stride monk ability to give him great foot speed.  And he often used that great speed to zip past the enemy into their rear to engage enemy spellcasters and archers.  But generally, I don't worry about foot speed with my front line types.

[JerekKruger]

 

Honestly, one of my gripes with armor in PoE is that there's too much incentive to play one's characters either all-up armored with plate or go to the other extreme with very little armor.  The armor system doesn't give any particularly good reason to play medium armors other than doing so for more role playing reasons, like I do.  I wish that there were some factors in the armor system that created an incentive for some characters to wear medium armor, other than what special effects some enchanted medium armors might have.

 

Agreed. Until I started running Pallegina as a pseudo fire mage I don't think I'd ever worn mail or scale beyond the very early game. I probably "shouldn't" wear breastplates but I think they look great so tend to anyway.

 

In my most recent party, I could have had Sagani wearing one of the good padded armors to get a lower recovery, but I decided to stick with her wearing hide armor (the Superb hide armor, in particular) for role playing reasons.  It just felt right for her character as both a ranger and someone from a more woodsey culture to prefer wearing hides to wearing a more "civilized" set of padded armor.  On a side note, I think that it would have been nice if there'd been a set of "padded" armor or even "robes" that looked like the Tundra clothing you could buy in Stalwart (along with the Tundra hood).  It might have been technically "padded armor" even if it looked more like a bunch of stitched together hides.  It would have been a nice touch.

 

 

Yeah, for me Sagani and Hiravias tend to wear hide or leather. Luckily there are some decent examples of both, but I'm sure they'd be better in something with lower recovery. It's the same for Sagani and guns: a lot of her dialogue talks about her using a bow and it just seems wrong to equipe her with a gun or even a crossbow, so I stick with bows all the way. Luckily Stormcaller eventually happens and everything works out, but still...

 

Regarding a small movement penalty for wearing plate, frankly, I don't think that it's really much of a penalty at all most of the time.  Maybe it's just my own play style, but I tend to let the enemy come to me.  And as such, movement speed tends to matter very little to most of my characters.  Oh, I played Zahua in my recent party, and played him as a light armor wearing, who wore the boots of speed as well as took the Long Stride monk ability to give him great foot speed.  And he often used that great speed to zip past the enemy into their rear to engage enemy spellcasters and archers.  But generally, I don't worry about foot speed with my front line types.

 

 

No that's how I play too, I just have an allergy to taking on speed penalties. I only wear White Crest once I've got the White March Boots of Speed for this reason. It's purely psychological, I don't think a movement penalty is bad really, I just don't like them.

[Crucis]

I feel the same way about Sagani, as well, Jerek.  It just feels wrong to have her using anything other than a bow, or have her wearing anything but leather or hide armor.  And I think the same would apply to Hiravias for pretty much the same reasons.  They're both people from hunting cultures, and from a role playing perspective, both seem like they'd be far more comfortable in hide or leathers than fancier armors worn by city folk.

 

Of course, I tend to have a relatively strong dislike of guns and slightly less of one regarding crossbows (FYI, I'm including arbalests under "crossbows" here).  I don't like that guns come with an innate -5 accuracy penalty, and then I further don't like that guns and crossbows are so slow loading that there's another talent in the mix, Gunner, that one feels somewhat required to take.  I guess that taken together, these things rub me the wrong way regarding guns and crossbows.  I just don't like having to buy an extra talent just to feel like I'm getting the most out of a crossbow or gun.

 

As for Pallegina as a second liner wearing a breast plate, actually I don't think that that's so bad.  The way I've played my last two parties is that I kept my second liners who would start battles in ranged mode (and try to stay in ranged mode, if things worked out in a way that let them) in medium-ish armors, just to have a better recovery time.  And a character who has pretty good innate deflection on its own can do just fine in melee wearing breast plate.  I won't say that they're quite as durable as someone in plate.  But they can usually do well enough, particularly if the breast plate is good.