Brussels Airport Explosions

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

 

 

 

That article comos off as more patronizing than what it wishes to be.

 

If a culture or a group of people start to blow up airports and subways, do mass shootings and suicide bomb themselves sporadically because they are simply bored, too stupid, depressed, have high unemployment and think it is cool, then why even bother allow them to Europe to begin with if they are so fragile?

 

But that would require responsibility for failure in policy, of which Drowsy already pointed out that the current establishment will not do. Rather race further down the cliff than admitting that you're wrong, i guess.

 

 

Article uses assumption that this attackers are European born and grown. Which means that nobody allowed them in Europe in first place.

 

 

"European" as second or third generation North Africans and Middle Easterners. The result of an ongoing policy since the end of WWII.

 

 

 

You can't come to Europe because your children or your children's children may grow to become terrorists because of things that have happened yet. Sounds reasonable policy, too bad that our politicians didn't understood need for such caution decades ago.

 

 

The article being dumb aside, creating a policy where middle eastern and north african muslims become ghettofied over the generations and not part of society is the reason why we are here we are. I see little reason to continue with the same.

 

 

It isn't good policy to let any population group secede from general population. But I see fault to be more in housing, schooling, and employment policies than in immigration policies of past. But of course if we can't make our domestic policies work then adding more stress to system that don't work isn't solid policy either.

 

BruceVC: I am sorry that I have failed in my attempt of sarcasm. I tried my best to make it so over the top that nobody would take it serious.

 

 

I would buy the first half of your argument if all human behaviour in different groups manifested itself similarly for all, but it doesn't.

[Elerond]

I would buy the first half of your argument if all human behaviour in different groups manifested itself similarly for all, but it doesn't.

 

Criminal behavior and extreme violence are much more common within those people that are secede from general population than in general population, regardless of their origin. Like how our school shooters and that man/boy that exploded himself in mall were all pure breed Finns that all had seceded from general population and found people with similar mind from internet that feed their feelings of separation to point where they committed their acts of mass murder. And we have those pseudo nazis that commit petty crimes and violence and some case murders, we have our motor cycle gangs, we had our extreme leftist groups that idolized non-existent communism to point where they were willing to do heavy crimes, we have our very miss guided nature protectors that are willing to go extreme measures to stop/prevent things that they see to be against their world view and so on.

[Meshugger]

 

I would buy the first half of your argument if all human behaviour in different groups manifested itself similarly for all, but it doesn't.

 

Criminal behavior and extreme violence are much more common within those people that are secede from general population than in general population, regardless of their origin. Like how our school shooters and that man/boy that exploded himself in mall were all pure breed Finns that all had seceded from general population and found people with similar mind from internet that feed their feelings of separation to point where they committed their acts of mass murder. And we have those pseudo nazis that commit petty crimes and violence and some case murders, we have our motor cycle gangs, we had our extreme leftist groups that idolized non-existent communism to point where they were willing to do heavy crimes, we have our very miss guided nature protectors that are willing to go extreme measures to stop/prevent things that they see to be against their world view and so on.

 

 

Of course every society have their own Morlocks causing trouble in their own way and they are handled accordingly. But adding more Morlocks from other places and effectively having no preventive measures for this new kind of Morlock behaviour will not help one bit and as in worst cases, what the host nation consider as Morlock behaviour is a-ok or understandable by the imported Eloi. 

[Elerond]

 

 

I would buy the first half of your argument if all human behaviour in different groups manifested itself similarly for all, but it doesn't.

 

Criminal behavior and extreme violence are much more common within those people that are secede from general population than in general population, regardless of their origin. Like how our school shooters and that man/boy that exploded himself in mall were all pure breed Finns that all had seceded from general population and found people with similar mind from internet that feed their feelings of separation to point where they committed their acts of mass murder. And we have those pseudo nazis that commit petty crimes and violence and some case murders, we have our motor cycle gangs, we had our extreme leftist groups that idolized non-existent communism to point where they were willing to do heavy crimes, we have our very miss guided nature protectors that are willing to go extreme measures to stop/prevent things that they see to be against their world view and so on.

 

 

Of course every society have their own Morlocks causing trouble in their own way and they are handled accordingly. But adding more Morlocks from other places and effectively having no preventive measures for this new kind of Morlock behaviour will not help one bit and as in worst cases, what the host nation consider as Morlock behaviour is a-ok or understandable by the imported Eloi. 

 

 

But in this case problem isn't in imported Eloi, but that some children or children's children of said imported Eloi become Morlocks. So like I said reason why these Morlocks pop-up isn't necessary in fact that we let their Eloi parents in the society, but how our society's systems have failed to make them Eloi. 

Edited March 23, 2016 by Elerond

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

I would buy the first half of your argument if all human behaviour in different groups manifested itself similarly for all, but it doesn't.

 

Criminal behavior and extreme violence are much more common within those people that are secede from general population than in general population, regardless of their origin. Like how our school shooters and that man/boy that exploded himself in mall were all pure breed Finns that all had seceded from general population and found people with similar mind from internet that feed their feelings of separation to point where they committed their acts of mass murder. And we have those pseudo nazis that commit petty crimes and violence and some case murders, we have our motor cycle gangs, we had our extreme leftist groups that idolized non-existent communism to point where they were willing to do heavy crimes, we have our very miss guided nature protectors that are willing to go extreme measures to stop/prevent things that they see to be against their world view and so on.

 

 

Of course every society have their own Morlocks causing trouble in their own way and they are handled accordingly. But adding more Morlocks from other places and effectively having no preventive measures for this new kind of Morlock behaviour will not help one bit and as in worst cases, what the host nation consider as Morlock behaviour is a-ok or understandable by the imported Eloi. 

 

 

But in this case problem isn't in imported Eloi, but that some children or children's children of said imported Eloi become Morlocks. So like I said reason why these Morlocks pop-up isn't necessary in fact that we let their Eloi parents in the society, but how our society's systems have failed to make them Eloi. 

 

 

Almost agreed, but our Eloi seems to fail to grasp that you cannot blame us for all the problems they cause and make their Morlocks victims of society.

 

Our Eloi should have and should've had the foresight on what potential problems this experiment would cause.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Meshugger

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

That article comos off as more patronizing than what it wishes to be.

 

If a culture or a group of people start to blow up airports and subways, do mass shootings and suicide bomb themselves sporadically because they are simply bored, too stupid, depressed, have high unemployment and think it is cool, then why even bother allow them to Europe to begin with if they are so fragile?

 

But that would require responsibility for failure in policy, of which Drowsy already pointed out that the current establishment will not do. Rather race further down the cliff than admitting that you're wrong, i guess.

 

 

Article uses assumption that this attackers are European born and grown. Which means that nobody allowed them in Europe in first place.

 

 

"European" as second or third generation North Africans and Middle Easterners. The result of an ongoing policy since the end of WWII.

 

 

 

You can't come to Europe because your children or your children's children may grow to become terrorists because of things that have happened yet. Sounds reasonable policy, too bad that our politicians didn't understood need for such caution decades ago.

 

 

The article being dumb aside, creating a policy where middle eastern and north african muslims become ghettofied over the generations and not part of society is the reason why we are here we are. I see little reason to continue with the same.

 

 

It isn't good policy to let any population group secede from general population. But I see fault to be more in housing, schooling, and employment policies than in immigration policies of past. But of course if we can't make our domestic policies work then adding more stress to system that don't work isn't solid policy either.

 

BruceVC: I am sorry that I have failed in my attempt of sarcasm. I tried my best to make it so over the top that nobody would take it serious.

 

Elerond when you say your domestic policies dont work are you referring to the refugees and intergration?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

 

 

Emphases mine:

 

 

 

Jihadi Cool: Belgium’s New Extremists are as Shallow as They are Deadly

by Kurt Eichenwald

 

Anyone surprised by the murderous attack in Brussels has not been paying attention. On a per capita basis, Belgium has been Europe’s hotbed of young Muslims who travel to Syria to fight alongside the Islamic State militant group (ISIS) and then return home, often ready to kill. But the world should hesitate before crediting this attack to ISIS, because doing so tends to infuse the group with power that it does not have.

 

These European attackers are not like the Al-Qaeda members of old—the radicalized adherents to fundamentalist Islam. Many of these new age killers were small children when the World Trade Center fell in 2001 and have spent much of their lives watching major wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria. Their knowledge of Islam is quite limited; they are more like jihadi hipsters than dedicated Islamists, or what some experts in the intelligence community call “jihadist cool.” They celebrate what the Dutch coordinator for security and counterterrorism called “pop-jihad as a lifestyle.”

 

These are youths who gather in groups, such as the recently dismantled Sharia4Belgium. They know less about Osama bin Laden than they do about Tupac Shakur; Belgians who travel to Syria to fight often revere the deceased American rapper on social media, identifying themselves with his lyrics about life in the inner cities. But these attackers also have their own rap music, hip clothes popular with young Muslims that are sold by companies like Urban Ummah and slogans akin to what might be found on a bumper sticker (“Work Hard, Pray Hard.”) Their tweets often end with terms like #BeardLife and #HijabLife. While in Syria, they send selfies to their friends showing themselves wearing kohl, a traditional Middle Eastern eye shadow.

 

In other words, these are not intellectual Muslims with long beards and Korans in hand; labeling them jihadis or radical Islamists would be, to them, the highest compliment. In another time or another circumstance, these are young people who would be called losers or narcissistic punks—although they are punks who murder.

 

It’s easy to confuse Belgium’s new extremists with the ones from the previous decade. The murder of Ahmad Shah Massoud, the leader of the Northern Alliance who was killed just before the 9/11 attacks, was committed by men who plotted their attack in Brussels. A Belgian extremist cell that was part of the Groupe Islamique Marocain Combattant participated in the deadly Madrid train bombings in 2004. The next year, a Belgian named Muriel Degauque blew herself up in an attack in Iraq, making her the first known female suicide bomber from the West. But the old-line extremist networks have no connection to the “jihadist cool” aficionados.

 

These shallow Islamists have proved to be a challenge for European countries that use a traditional de-radicalization program for Muslims lured into the world of radical fundamentalists: It’s hard to re-educate people about Islam when they knew almost nothing to begin with. In what may be the most representative event depicting the nature of these new Islamist extremists, two British Muslims, both 22, purchased copies of Islam for Dummies and The Koran for Dummies in August 2014 just before they boarded a plane on the first leg of their trip to join ISIS fighters in Syria.

 

The numbers of young European Muslims who have traveled to Syria to fight alongside ISIS is frightening. Recent intelligence estimates peg the number at more than 5,000, with about 470 coming from Belgium alone. While that is the largest number per capita of any country in the European Union, France is the leader in raw numbers, with 1,700 travelers to Syria.

What lures these youths into the brutal culture of radical Islam? The answer, according to intelligence officials, would be laughable if it was not so deadly: peer pressure and what might be called Rambo-envy.

 

“For foreign fighters the religious component in recruitment and radicalization is being replaced by more social elements such as peer pressure and role modelling,’’ said a January 18 report by Europol, the European Union’s law enforcement agency, which deals with militant networks. “Additionally the romantic prospect of being part of an important and exciting development, apart from more private considerations, may play a role.”

 

Here is where things always get politicized. Trying to stop this conversion of young European Muslims into attackers requires understanding what underlies the change. Political blowhards, unable to tell the difference between hard-core Islamic radicals and practitioners of pop-jihad, rage that trying to figure out ways to intercede in that transformation amounts to excusing the attackers, an argument that plays well for the ignorant but that leaves intelligence officials rolling their eyes in frustration. Proclaiming “this was ISIS!”—when it was just punks inspired by the group—grafts the perception of worldwide power onto the organization, making it seem stronger than it actually is, which markets it as even more attractive to young Muslims seeking adventure and attention.

 

Let the blowhards blow. Here is what needs to be understood about the murderous practitioners of jihadi cool. Based on interviews with European Muslims returning from fighting in Syria, foreign intelligence agencies estimate that about 20 percent of them were diagnosed with mental illnesses before they left for the Middle East. A large percentage of them have prior records for both petty and serious crimes. And the vast majority of them come out of urban neighborhoods torn apart by economic hardship.

 

Rik Coolsaet, a professor of international relations at Ghent University in Belgium and a senior associate fellow at the Royal Institute of International Relations, recently wrote about the environment that has caused the development of this youth subculture in his country. Young Belgians, faced with a bleak job market, have higher suicide rates and more high school dropouts than most member states of the European Union.

 

“Youth representatives in Belgium recently warned that many young people are depressed and feel hopeless,” Coolsaet wrote.

 

The result, intelligence analysts say, is those European Muslims that become fan-boys for ISIS are taking not a rational stand but an emotional one. “Areas where there are close-knit groups of susceptible youth, often lacking a sense of purpose or belonging outside their own circle, have proved to generate a momentum of recruitment that spreads through personal contacts from group to group,” says a December 2015 report by the Soufan Group, a private intelligence analysis and security company.

 

In other words, attraction to the ISIS philosophy among European Muslins is like a virus, where proximity to the infected is the most common cause. And the locations where the beliefs are spreading can be just as easy to find as the sites where a disease emerges; in November 2015, Belgian Interior Minister Jan Jambon identified Molenbeek, a poor immigrant quarter of Brussels, as a hotbed for young Muslims traveling to Syria and back. So it should come as no surprise that the investigation into the Brussels attack immediately tracked suspects to Molenbeek.

 

And this is what’s so frustrating about the new hipster pop-jihadism. Intelligence officials know most everything. Belgium publicly identified the location where potential terrorists were most likely to be living. On January 25, Europol announced that the threat of an attack was at its highest level in a decade, warning that both France and Belgium were at the highest risk of an attack by those attacking soft targets in the heart of a large city. That is almost as specific as it gets.

 

Even with all that knowledge, however, disrupting an attack from this new breed of Islamic fans—rather than religious devotees—is enormously difficult. These are small cells of like-minded young people with operational autonomy, not some organization with top-down leadership like Al-Qaeda. Many of them do travel to Syria to learn tactics from ISIS before heading back home on their own. All it takes is some guns, some homemade bombs and some desire for fame to transform a loser into a hero among his friends and allies. And then the world eagerly attributes the attack to ISIS, which takes a bow for an attack its leaders probably knew nothing about and earns more cred that it uses to attract even more devotees.

 

So here the answer for solving the problem is quite different from the military strategy that was needed to deal with Al-Qaeda. Europe and America can’t simply attack ISIS and expect the problem to be solved, not unless the Western nations want to stop bombing themselves. This time, it is a law enforcement issue, one requiring sources, informants and sting operations, along with economic plans to create some hope for a future among Europe’s youths. 

 

Or the bombastic politicians and talking heads can continue perpetuating ignorance, banging the once-correct drum about a clash of civilizations; riling up the public about a vast, ISIS-controlled network; and ignoring the less-dramatic solutions that need to be pursued. The West is facing a threat from its own residents who want to be Rambo; it should resist the temptation to do the same.

 

 

That article comos off as more patronizing than what it wishes to be.

 

If a culture or a group of people start to blow up airports and subways, do mass shootings and suicide bomb themselves sporadically because they are simply bored, too stupid, depressed, have high unemployment and think it is cool, then why even bother allow them to Europe to begin with if they are so fragile?

 

 

*cough* scope insensitivity *cough*

 

Estimated number of Muslims in Belgium: 320.000-450.000

 

Estimated number of young European Muslims who have traveled to Syria to fight alongside ISIS: 470.

 

"A culture starts to blow up airports and subways", my ass.

 

 

But that's what the article is saying and i took it to it's logical conclusion. Thus highlighting that something is greatly amiss in its reasoning.

 

 

If an article states that 0,1% of a culture does something, stating that the entire culture is to be blamed for their actions isn't "taking the article to its logical conclusion", it's engaging in reductio ad absurdum. If I'm being nice.

[Elerond]

 

 

It isn't good policy to let any population group secede from general population. But I see fault to be more in housing, schooling, and employment policies than in immigration policies of past. But of course if we can't make our domestic policies work then adding more stress to system that don't work isn't solid policy either.

 

BruceVC: I am sorry that I have failed in my attempt of sarcasm. I tried my best to make it so over the top that nobody would take it serious.

 

Elerond when you say your domestic policies dont work are you referring to the refugees and intergration?

 

 

I am referring to all domestic policies that fail to prevent people seceding from general population.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

It isn't good policy to let any population group secede from general population. But I see fault to be more in housing, schooling, and employment policies than in immigration policies of past. But of course if we can't make our domestic policies work then adding more stress to system that don't work isn't solid policy either.

 

BruceVC: I am sorry that I have failed in my attempt of sarcasm. I tried my best to make it so over the top that nobody would take it serious.

 

Elerond when you say your domestic policies dont work are you referring to the refugees and intergration?

 

 

I am referring to all domestic policies that fail to prevent people seceding from general population.

 

Okay and just to be clear does this bother you? How widespread is it and does it apply to all immigrants who come to Finland 

 

I'm just trying to understand the issue

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

 

 

Emphases mine:

 

 

 

Jihadi Cool: Belgium’s New Extremists are as Shallow as They are Deadly

by Kurt Eichenwald

 

Anyone surprised by the murderous attack in Brussels has not been paying attention. On a per capita basis, Belgium has been Europe’s hotbed of young Muslims who travel to Syria to fight alongside the Islamic State militant group (ISIS) and then return home, often ready to kill. But the world should hesitate before crediting this attack to ISIS, because doing so tends to infuse the group with power that it does not have.

 

These European attackers are not like the Al-Qaeda members of old—the radicalized adherents to fundamentalist Islam. Many of these new age killers were small children when the World Trade Center fell in 2001 and have spent much of their lives watching major wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria. Their knowledge of Islam is quite limited; they are more like jihadi hipsters than dedicated Islamists, or what some experts in the intelligence community call “jihadist cool.” They celebrate what the Dutch coordinator for security and counterterrorism called “pop-jihad as a lifestyle.”

 

These are youths who gather in groups, such as the recently dismantled Sharia4Belgium. They know less about Osama bin Laden than they do about Tupac Shakur; Belgians who travel to Syria to fight often revere the deceased American rapper on social media, identifying themselves with his lyrics about life in the inner cities. But these attackers also have their own rap music, hip clothes popular with young Muslims that are sold by companies like Urban Ummah and slogans akin to what might be found on a bumper sticker (“Work Hard, Pray Hard.”) Their tweets often end with terms like #BeardLife and #HijabLife. While in Syria, they send selfies to their friends showing themselves wearing kohl, a traditional Middle Eastern eye shadow.

 

In other words, these are not intellectual Muslims with long beards and Korans in hand; labeling them jihadis or radical Islamists would be, to them, the highest compliment. In another time or another circumstance, these are young people who would be called losers or narcissistic punks—although they are punks who murder.

 

It’s easy to confuse Belgium’s new extremists with the ones from the previous decade. The murder of Ahmad Shah Massoud, the leader of the Northern Alliance who was killed just before the 9/11 attacks, was committed by men who plotted their attack in Brussels. A Belgian extremist cell that was part of the Groupe Islamique Marocain Combattant participated in the deadly Madrid train bombings in 2004. The next year, a Belgian named Muriel Degauque blew herself up in an attack in Iraq, making her the first known female suicide bomber from the West. But the old-line extremist networks have no connection to the “jihadist cool” aficionados.

 

These shallow Islamists have proved to be a challenge for European countries that use a traditional de-radicalization program for Muslims lured into the world of radical fundamentalists: It’s hard to re-educate people about Islam when they knew almost nothing to begin with. In what may be the most representative event depicting the nature of these new Islamist extremists, two British Muslims, both 22, purchased copies of Islam for Dummies and The Koran for Dummies in August 2014 just before they boarded a plane on the first leg of their trip to join ISIS fighters in Syria.

 

The numbers of young European Muslims who have traveled to Syria to fight alongside ISIS is frightening. Recent intelligence estimates peg the number at more than 5,000, with about 470 coming from Belgium alone. While that is the largest number per capita of any country in the European Union, France is the leader in raw numbers, with 1,700 travelers to Syria.

What lures these youths into the brutal culture of radical Islam? The answer, according to intelligence officials, would be laughable if it was not so deadly: peer pressure and what might be called Rambo-envy.

 

“For foreign fighters the religious component in recruitment and radicalization is being replaced by more social elements such as peer pressure and role modelling,’’ said a January 18 report by Europol, the European Union’s law enforcement agency, which deals with militant networks. “Additionally the romantic prospect of being part of an important and exciting development, apart from more private considerations, may play a role.”

 

Here is where things always get politicized. Trying to stop this conversion of young European Muslims into attackers requires understanding what underlies the change. Political blowhards, unable to tell the difference between hard-core Islamic radicals and practitioners of pop-jihad, rage that trying to figure out ways to intercede in that transformation amounts to excusing the attackers, an argument that plays well for the ignorant but that leaves intelligence officials rolling their eyes in frustration. Proclaiming “this was ISIS!”—when it was just punks inspired by the group—grafts the perception of worldwide power onto the organization, making it seem stronger than it actually is, which markets it as even more attractive to young Muslims seeking adventure and attention.

 

Let the blowhards blow. Here is what needs to be understood about the murderous practitioners of jihadi cool. Based on interviews with European Muslims returning from fighting in Syria, foreign intelligence agencies estimate that about 20 percent of them were diagnosed with mental illnesses before they left for the Middle East. A large percentage of them have prior records for both petty and serious crimes. And the vast majority of them come out of urban neighborhoods torn apart by economic hardship.

 

Rik Coolsaet, a professor of international relations at Ghent University in Belgium and a senior associate fellow at the Royal Institute of International Relations, recently wrote about the environment that has caused the development of this youth subculture in his country. Young Belgians, faced with a bleak job market, have higher suicide rates and more high school dropouts than most member states of the European Union.

 

“Youth representatives in Belgium recently warned that many young people are depressed and feel hopeless,” Coolsaet wrote.

 

The result, intelligence analysts say, is those European Muslims that become fan-boys for ISIS are taking not a rational stand but an emotional one. “Areas where there are close-knit groups of susceptible youth, often lacking a sense of purpose or belonging outside their own circle, have proved to generate a momentum of recruitment that spreads through personal contacts from group to group,” says a December 2015 report by the Soufan Group, a private intelligence analysis and security company.

 

In other words, attraction to the ISIS philosophy among European Muslins is like a virus, where proximity to the infected is the most common cause. And the locations where the beliefs are spreading can be just as easy to find as the sites where a disease emerges; in November 2015, Belgian Interior Minister Jan Jambon identified Molenbeek, a poor immigrant quarter of Brussels, as a hotbed for young Muslims traveling to Syria and back. So it should come as no surprise that the investigation into the Brussels attack immediately tracked suspects to Molenbeek.

 

And this is what’s so frustrating about the new hipster pop-jihadism. Intelligence officials know most everything. Belgium publicly identified the location where potential terrorists were most likely to be living. On January 25, Europol announced that the threat of an attack was at its highest level in a decade, warning that both France and Belgium were at the highest risk of an attack by those attacking soft targets in the heart of a large city. That is almost as specific as it gets.

 

Even with all that knowledge, however, disrupting an attack from this new breed of Islamic fans—rather than religious devotees—is enormously difficult. These are small cells of like-minded young people with operational autonomy, not some organization with top-down leadership like Al-Qaeda. Many of them do travel to Syria to learn tactics from ISIS before heading back home on their own. All it takes is some guns, some homemade bombs and some desire for fame to transform a loser into a hero among his friends and allies. And then the world eagerly attributes the attack to ISIS, which takes a bow for an attack its leaders probably knew nothing about and earns more cred that it uses to attract even more devotees.

 

So here the answer for solving the problem is quite different from the military strategy that was needed to deal with Al-Qaeda. Europe and America can’t simply attack ISIS and expect the problem to be solved, not unless the Western nations want to stop bombing themselves. This time, it is a law enforcement issue, one requiring sources, informants and sting operations, along with economic plans to create some hope for a future among Europe’s youths. 

 

Or the bombastic politicians and talking heads can continue perpetuating ignorance, banging the once-correct drum about a clash of civilizations; riling up the public about a vast, ISIS-controlled network; and ignoring the less-dramatic solutions that need to be pursued. The West is facing a threat from its own residents who want to be Rambo; it should resist the temptation to do the same.

 

 

That article comos off as more patronizing than what it wishes to be.

 

If a culture or a group of people start to blow up airports and subways, do mass shootings and suicide bomb themselves sporadically because they are simply bored, too stupid, depressed, have high unemployment and think it is cool, then why even bother allow them to Europe to begin with if they are so fragile?

 

 

*cough* scope insensitivity *cough*

 

Estimated number of Muslims in Belgium: 320.000-450.000

 

Estimated number of young European Muslims who have traveled to Syria to fight alongside ISIS: 470.

 

"A culture starts to blow up airports and subways", my ass.

 

 

But that's what the article is saying and i took it to it's logical conclusion. Thus highlighting that something is greatly amiss in its reasoning.

 

 

If an article states that 0,1% of a culture does something, stating that the entire culture is to be blamed for their actions isn't "taking the article to its logical conclusion", it's engaging in reductio ad absurdum. If I'm being nice.

 

 

No.

 

The article is trying to explain reasoning behind the actions of these men by asserting the same problems found among the youth across Europe, but for some strange reason people from Molenbeek express the same failures by shooting and bombing, all while being shielded by the locals against the authorities. It's trivilizes the problem, to downright patronizing, as something that will solve itself if there just were enough jobs.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Emphases mine:

 

 

 

Jihadi Cool: Belgium’s New Extremists are as Shallow as They are Deadly

by Kurt Eichenwald

 

Anyone surprised by the murderous attack in Brussels has not been paying attention. On a per capita basis, Belgium has been Europe’s hotbed of young Muslims who travel to Syria to fight alongside the Islamic State militant group (ISIS) and then return home, often ready to kill. But the world should hesitate before crediting this attack to ISIS, because doing so tends to infuse the group with power that it does not have.

 

These European attackers are not like the Al-Qaeda members of old—the radicalized adherents to fundamentalist Islam. Many of these new age killers were small children when the World Trade Center fell in 2001 and have spent much of their lives watching major wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria. Their knowledge of Islam is quite limited; they are more like jihadi hipsters than dedicated Islamists, or what some experts in the intelligence community call “jihadist cool.” They celebrate what the Dutch coordinator for security and counterterrorism called “pop-jihad as a lifestyle.”

 

These are youths who gather in groups, such as the recently dismantled Sharia4Belgium. They know less about Osama bin Laden than they do about Tupac Shakur; Belgians who travel to Syria to fight often revere the deceased American rapper on social media, identifying themselves with his lyrics about life in the inner cities. But these attackers also have their own rap music, hip clothes popular with young Muslims that are sold by companies like Urban Ummah and slogans akin to what might be found on a bumper sticker (“Work Hard, Pray Hard.”) Their tweets often end with terms like #BeardLife and #HijabLife. While in Syria, they send selfies to their friends showing themselves wearing kohl, a traditional Middle Eastern eye shadow.

 

In other words, these are not intellectual Muslims with long beards and Korans in hand; labeling them jihadis or radical Islamists would be, to them, the highest compliment. In another time or another circumstance, these are young people who would be called losers or narcissistic punks—although they are punks who murder.

 

It’s easy to confuse Belgium’s new extremists with the ones from the previous decade. The murder of Ahmad Shah Massoud, the leader of the Northern Alliance who was killed just before the 9/11 attacks, was committed by men who plotted their attack in Brussels. A Belgian extremist cell that was part of the Groupe Islamique Marocain Combattant participated in the deadly Madrid train bombings in 2004. The next year, a Belgian named Muriel Degauque blew herself up in an attack in Iraq, making her the first known female suicide bomber from the West. But the old-line extremist networks have no connection to the “jihadist cool” aficionados.

 

These shallow Islamists have proved to be a challenge for European countries that use a traditional de-radicalization program for Muslims lured into the world of radical fundamentalists: It’s hard to re-educate people about Islam when they knew almost nothing to begin with. In what may be the most representative event depicting the nature of these new Islamist extremists, two British Muslims, both 22, purchased copies of Islam for Dummies and The Koran for Dummies in August 2014 just before they boarded a plane on the first leg of their trip to join ISIS fighters in Syria.

 

The numbers of young European Muslims who have traveled to Syria to fight alongside ISIS is frightening. Recent intelligence estimates peg the number at more than 5,000, with about 470 coming from Belgium alone. While that is the largest number per capita of any country in the European Union, France is the leader in raw numbers, with 1,700 travelers to Syria.

What lures these youths into the brutal culture of radical Islam? The answer, according to intelligence officials, would be laughable if it was not so deadly: peer pressure and what might be called Rambo-envy.

 

“For foreign fighters the religious component in recruitment and radicalization is being replaced by more social elements such as peer pressure and role modelling,’’ said a January 18 report by Europol, the European Union’s law enforcement agency, which deals with militant networks. “Additionally the romantic prospect of being part of an important and exciting development, apart from more private considerations, may play a role.”

 

Here is where things always get politicized. Trying to stop this conversion of young European Muslims into attackers requires understanding what underlies the change. Political blowhards, unable to tell the difference between hard-core Islamic radicals and practitioners of pop-jihad, rage that trying to figure out ways to intercede in that transformation amounts to excusing the attackers, an argument that plays well for the ignorant but that leaves intelligence officials rolling their eyes in frustration. Proclaiming “this was ISIS!”—when it was just punks inspired by the group—grafts the perception of worldwide power onto the organization, making it seem stronger than it actually is, which markets it as even more attractive to young Muslims seeking adventure and attention.

 

Let the blowhards blow. Here is what needs to be understood about the murderous practitioners of jihadi cool. Based on interviews with European Muslims returning from fighting in Syria, foreign intelligence agencies estimate that about 20 percent of them were diagnosed with mental illnesses before they left for the Middle East. A large percentage of them have prior records for both petty and serious crimes. And the vast majority of them come out of urban neighborhoods torn apart by economic hardship.

 

Rik Coolsaet, a professor of international relations at Ghent University in Belgium and a senior associate fellow at the Royal Institute of International Relations, recently wrote about the environment that has caused the development of this youth subculture in his country. Young Belgians, faced with a bleak job market, have higher suicide rates and more high school dropouts than most member states of the European Union.

 

“Youth representatives in Belgium recently warned that many young people are depressed and feel hopeless,” Coolsaet wrote.

 

The result, intelligence analysts say, is those European Muslims that become fan-boys for ISIS are taking not a rational stand but an emotional one. “Areas where there are close-knit groups of susceptible youth, often lacking a sense of purpose or belonging outside their own circle, have proved to generate a momentum of recruitment that spreads through personal contacts from group to group,” says a December 2015 report by the Soufan Group, a private intelligence analysis and security company.

 

In other words, attraction to the ISIS philosophy among European Muslins is like a virus, where proximity to the infected is the most common cause. And the locations where the beliefs are spreading can be just as easy to find as the sites where a disease emerges; in November 2015, Belgian Interior Minister Jan Jambon identified Molenbeek, a poor immigrant quarter of Brussels, as a hotbed for young Muslims traveling to Syria and back. So it should come as no surprise that the investigation into the Brussels attack immediately tracked suspects to Molenbeek.

 

And this is what’s so frustrating about the new hipster pop-jihadism. Intelligence officials know most everything. Belgium publicly identified the location where potential terrorists were most likely to be living. On January 25, Europol announced that the threat of an attack was at its highest level in a decade, warning that both France and Belgium were at the highest risk of an attack by those attacking soft targets in the heart of a large city. That is almost as specific as it gets.

 

Even with all that knowledge, however, disrupting an attack from this new breed of Islamic fans—rather than religious devotees—is enormously difficult. These are small cells of like-minded young people with operational autonomy, not some organization with top-down leadership like Al-Qaeda. Many of them do travel to Syria to learn tactics from ISIS before heading back home on their own. All it takes is some guns, some homemade bombs and some desire for fame to transform a loser into a hero among his friends and allies. And then the world eagerly attributes the attack to ISIS, which takes a bow for an attack its leaders probably knew nothing about and earns more cred that it uses to attract even more devotees.

 

So here the answer for solving the problem is quite different from the military strategy that was needed to deal with Al-Qaeda. Europe and America can’t simply attack ISIS and expect the problem to be solved, not unless the Western nations want to stop bombing themselves. This time, it is a law enforcement issue, one requiring sources, informants and sting operations, along with economic plans to create some hope for a future among Europe’s youths. 

 

Or the bombastic politicians and talking heads can continue perpetuating ignorance, banging the once-correct drum about a clash of civilizations; riling up the public about a vast, ISIS-controlled network; and ignoring the less-dramatic solutions that need to be pursued. The West is facing a threat from its own residents who want to be Rambo; it should resist the temptation to do the same.

 

 

That article comos off as more patronizing than what it wishes to be.

 

If a culture or a group of people start to blow up airports and subways, do mass shootings and suicide bomb themselves sporadically because they are simply bored, too stupid, depressed, have high unemployment and think it is cool, then why even bother allow them to Europe to begin with if they are so fragile?

 

 

*cough* scope insensitivity *cough*

 

Estimated number of Muslims in Belgium: 320.000-450.000

 

Estimated number of young European Muslims who have traveled to Syria to fight alongside ISIS: 470.

 

"A culture starts to blow up airports and subways", my ass.

 

 

But that's what the article is saying and i took it to it's logical conclusion. Thus highlighting that something is greatly amiss in its reasoning.

 

 

If an article states that 0,1% of a culture does something, stating that the entire culture is to be blamed for their actions isn't "taking the article to its logical conclusion", it's engaging in reductio ad absurdum. If I'm being nice.

 

 

No.

 

The article is trying to explain reasoning behind the actions of these men by asserting the same problems found among the youth across Europe, but for some strange reason people from Molenbeek express the same failures by shooting and bombing, all while being shielded by the locals against the authorities. It's trivilizes the problem, to downright patronizing, as something that will solve itself if there just were enough jobs.

 

Meshugger you are exaggerating the issue. I'm not sure if you being serious or you just teasing everyone?

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

It isn't good policy to let any population group secede from general population. But I see fault to be more in housing, schooling, and employment policies than in immigration policies of past. But of course if we can't make our domestic policies work then adding more stress to system that don't work isn't solid policy either.

 

BruceVC: I am sorry that I have failed in my attempt of sarcasm. I tried my best to make it so over the top that nobody would take it serious.

 

Elerond when you say your domestic policies dont work are you referring to the refugees and intergration?

 

 

I am referring to all domestic policies that fail to prevent people seceding from general population.

 

Okay and just to be clear does this bother you? How widespread is it and does it apply to all immigrants who come to Finland 

 

I'm just trying to understand the issue

 

 

People and population groups that secede from general population are according to statistic more likely commit crime and participate in extremist ideologies that are against general population.

 

Immigrants in Finland according to statistics commit more crimes than general population. But they aren't only population group for which such is true, although as aliens for Finnish culture and habits they are easy target to point out.

 

Immigrants that have moved to Finland because of higher paying job or Finnish family are according to statistic less likely to secede from general population than for example those that have come here through refugee programs. Also lower income people have higher their changes are to secede from general population.

 

I would say that Finland isn't really country that has big problems with its immigration population (although there is quite many that hold opposite view) at least yet. But there signs that in future there maybe more of general issues with immigrants that other countries already have, like for example districts where immigrants start to become majority population, need for schools that use some other language than Finnish, Swedish or Sami (Finland's official languages) as their main language, etc. issues that can lead population groups to secede from general population.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

It isn't good policy to let any population group secede from general population. But I see fault to be more in housing, schooling, and employment policies than in immigration policies of past. But of course if we can't make our domestic policies work then adding more stress to system that don't work isn't solid policy either.

 

BruceVC: I am sorry that I have failed in my attempt of sarcasm. I tried my best to make it so over the top that nobody would take it serious.

 

Elerond when you say your domestic policies dont work are you referring to the refugees and intergration?

 

 

I am referring to all domestic policies that fail to prevent people seceding from general population.

 

Okay and just to be clear does this bother you? How widespread is it and does it apply to all immigrants who come to Finland 

 

I'm just trying to understand the issue

 

 

People and population groups that secede from general population are according to statistic more likely commit crime and participate in extremist ideologies that are against general population.

 

Immigrants in Finland according to statistics commit more crimes than general population. But they aren't only population group for which such is true, although as aliens for Finnish culture and habits they are easy target to point out.

 

Immigrants that have moved to Finland because of higher paying job or Finnish family are according to statistic less likely to secede from general population than for example those that have come here through refugee programs. Also lower income people have higher their changes are to secede from general population.

 

I would say that Finland isn't really country that has big problems with its immigration population (although there is quite many that hold opposite view) at least yet. But there signs that in future there maybe more of general issues with immigrants that other countries already have, like for example districts where immigrants start to become majority population, need for schools that use some other language than Finnish, Swedish or Sami (Finland's official languages) as their main language, etc. issues that can lead population groups to secede from general population.

 

Yes but do you think its a problem in Finland? In other words has the Finnish government failed around this 

 

 

We have millions of foreigners living in South Africa, they come from war torn countries or countries that have collapsed economies

 

There is a percentage of them that commit crime, maybe 5 %...its hard to say as most are hard working and send money home to there families. For example we have 3 million Zimbabweans living in SA....but Zim has a 70 % unemployment rate so there citizens come to SA looking for economic opportunities.

 

Anyway the  black  foreigners are always blamed for crime or taking jobs  ...its unfair 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

The article is trying to explain reasoning behind the actions of these men by asserting the same problems found among the youth across Europe, but for some strange reason people from Molenbeek express the same failures by shooting and bombing, all while being shielded by the locals against the authorities. It's trivilizes the problem, to downright patronizing, as something that will solve itself if there just were enough jobs.

 

 

 

It's not like you can verify the falseness of that hypothesis, however. Shootings and bombings weren't a particularly favored pastime before the recession hit, AFAIK.

[Meshugger]

 

The article is trying to explain reasoning behind the actions of these men by asserting the same problems found among the youth across Europe, but for some strange reason people from Molenbeek express the same failures by shooting and bombing, all while being shielded by the locals against the authorities. It's trivilizes the problem, to downright patronizing, as something that will solve itself if there just were enough jobs.

 

 

 

It's not like you can verify the falseness of that hypothesis, however. Shootings and bombings weren't a particularly favored pastime before the recession hit, AFAIK.

 

 

Either it is true for all unemployed, downtrodden youth in all of Europe and we would see Greeks and Spaniards blowing **** up (http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/), which hasn't exactly happened, or we have to accept that the underlying problem is something more within the community itself instead. 

 

This is where the article fails, it just scratches the surface.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Meshugger

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

The article is trying to explain reasoning behind the actions of these men by asserting the same problems found among the youth across Europe, but for some strange reason people from Molenbeek express the same failures by shooting and bombing, all while being shielded by the locals against the authorities. It's trivilizes the problem, to downright patronizing, as something that will solve itself if there just were enough jobs.

 

 

 

It's not like you can verify the falseness of that hypothesis, however. Shootings and bombings weren't a particularly favored pastime before the recession hit, AFAIK.

 

 

Either it is true for all unemployed, downtrodden youth in all of Europe and we would see Greeks and Spaniards blowing **** up (http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/), which hasn't exactly happened, or we have to accept that the underlying problem is something more within the community itself instead. 

 

This is where the article fails, it just scratches the surface.

 

 

Or maybe you're looking for an AND, not an OR clause, and the problem would be solved by having jobs.

[Elerond]

Yes but do you think its a problem in Finland? In other words has the Finnish government failed around this 

 

Yes, it has caused and will cause problems in Finland and governments (these aren't new problems and have continued through several governments) have failed to solve them. And that failure cause quarrels in general population, which of course can lead that these problems expand and become even worse. 

[BruceVC]

 

Yes but do you think its a problem in Finland? In other words has the Finnish government failed around this 

 

Yes, it has caused and will cause problems in Finland and governments (these aren't new problems and have continued through several governments) have failed to solve them. And that failure cause quarrels in general population, which of course can lead that these problems expand and become even worse. 

 

Okay but are you talking about the 20k Syrian refugees that have just arrived in Finland? Isn't it too early to say the Finnish government has failed ?

 

 

Dont  get me wrong I can understand if this is the issue...its normal but I just want to be sure we are talking about the same thing?

[Elerond]

 

 

Yes but do you think its a problem in Finland? In other words has the Finnish government failed around this 

 

Yes, it has caused and will cause problems in Finland and governments (these aren't new problems and have continued through several governments) have failed to solve them. And that failure cause quarrels in general population, which of course can lead that these problems expand and become even worse. 

 

Okay but are you talking about the 20k Syrian refugees that have just arrived in Finland? Isn't it too early to say the Finnish government has failed ?

 

 

Dont  get me wrong I can understand if this is the issue...its normal but I just want to be sure we are talking about the same thing?

 

 

You think that those 40k refugees are only refugees/immigrants that there are in Finland? Those are just ones that cause additional stress to existing policies/systems that have problems, where get to the point that it isn't necessary most solid policy to add stress to policies/systems that don't work and hope that they work.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Yes but do you think its a problem in Finland? In other words has the Finnish government failed around this 

 

Yes, it has caused and will cause problems in Finland and governments (these aren't new problems and have continued through several governments) have failed to solve them. And that failure cause quarrels in general population, which of course can lead that these problems expand and become even worse. 

 

Okay but are you talking about the 20k Syrian refugees that have just arrived in Finland? Isn't it too early to say the Finnish government has failed ?

 

 

Dont  get me wrong I can understand if this is the issue...its normal but I just want to be sure we are talking about the same thing?

 

 

You think that those 40k refugees are only refugees/immigrants that there are in Finland? Those are just ones that cause additional stress to existing policies/systems that have problems, where get to the point that it isn't necessary most solid policy to add stress to policies/systems that don't work and hope that they work.

 

Okay I didnt realize Finland had  such a problem with refugees.....I have to be honest because of the harsh weather I wouldn't think Finland would be so popular...also your language, no one can understand it 

[Meshugger]

Errr, the Syrian refugees Finland weren't even 3% of the total number of refugees. This is the list of the top 6.

 

Iraq: 20485

Afghanistan: 5214

Somalia:  1981

Syria: 877

Albania: 762 (what?)

Iran: 619

 

A total of 32 476, where over 70% where men in fighting age. 

Edited March 23, 2016 by Meshugger

[BruceVC]

Errr, the Syrian refugees Finland weren't evn 3% of the total number of refugees. This is the list of the top 6.

 

Iraq: 20485

Afghanistan: 5214

Somalia:  1981

Syria: 877

Albania: 762 (what?)

Iran: 619

 

A total of 32 476, where over 70% where men in fighting age. 

Yes I understand your concern, I may  not share your view about them being all being dangerous but seriously ....WTF are people from those countries doing immigrating to Finland?

 

Its more the principle for me because I understand the shared burden of the EU but I still think its unfair to expect countries like Finland to just accept these refugees and have no concerns 

 

 

It should be optional but as I keep saying the ME countries must take more refugees before Europe has to

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

Yes but do you think its a problem in Finland? In other words has the Finnish government failed around this 

 

Yes, it has caused and will cause problems in Finland and governments (these aren't new problems and have continued through several governments) have failed to solve them. And that failure cause quarrels in general population, which of course can lead that these problems expand and become even worse. 

 

Okay but are you talking about the 20k Syrian refugees that have just arrived in Finland? Isn't it too early to say the Finnish government has failed ?

 

 

Dont  get me wrong I can understand if this is the issue...its normal but I just want to be sure we are talking about the same thing?

 

 

You think that those 40k refugees are only refugees/immigrants that there are in Finland? Those are just ones that cause additional stress to existing policies/systems that have problems, where get to the point that it isn't necessary most solid policy to add stress to policies/systems that don't work and hope that they work.

 

Okay I didnt realize Finland had  such a problem with refugees.....I have to be honest because of the harsh weather I wouldn't think Finland would be so popular...also your language, no one can understand it 

 

 

It has not been popular. Between 1970-2012 Finland gave asylum to 48k refugees and even that amount causes problems with existing policies and systems. And now government tries to use those same systems and policies for those that 40k have come in past year. Can you see why there maybe some more problems in future?

[Drowsy Emperor]

All the Albanians are economic migrants from Kosovo. Local newspapers reported a sudden surge in their movement, usually crossing Serbia to get to Hungary. From what I saw it was very coordinated and sort of started "overnight", not as a trickle.

 

I don't even know why this is still argued primarily as a "refugee" issue when a significant portion aren't refugees at all.

[Meshugger]

 

Errr, the Syrian refugees Finland weren't evn 3% of the total number of refugees. This is the list of the top 6.

 

Iraq: 20485

Afghanistan: 5214

Somalia:  1981

Syria: 877

Albania: 762 (what?)

Iran: 619

 

A total of 32 476, where over 70% where men in fighting age. 

Yes I understand your concern, I may  not share your view about them being all being dangerous but seriously ....WTF are people from those countries doing immigrating to Finland?

 

Its more the principle for me because I understand the shared burden of the EU but I still think its unfair to expect countries like Finland to just accept these refugees and have no concerns 

 

 

It should be optional but as I keep saying the ME countries must take more refugees before Europe has to

 

 

At least about 2/3 of all those refugees will have their status revoked and returned home, the problem is that the authorities are hoping that they will leave on their own behalf. So you have potentially 20000 men going underground going somewhere, doing something, but no one will know what.