Main Story, an atheist cliche?

[Brimsurfer]

 

 

Here in PoE the game accepts the idea of a world tricked into believing in unreal gods as a universal truth and the story in the final act unfolds only with this realisation, although there was plenty of room in the game's plot to go in multiple directions before the final act but in the final act the story shamelessly narrowed down to the writer's personal disposition in real life and that's what called as biased, impure or contaminated storytelling.

 

Like I said, all opportunity was taken from the player that would suggest otherwise (i felt like my wings were chopped and I felt trapped on the ground because before final act I was flying high....), there isn't even a single dialogue path or any contemplation that would indicate that there might be a possibility of actual Gods in the world of Eora or to suggest that there were flaws in Iovara's findings, even Thaos also failed to deny it......... there was only and only one message that was bluntly passed to players in the final act, all doors and corridors were deliberately closed and the game purposefully pushed the player in a singular direction that, 'the idea of existence of Gods is a lie, it is all just an elaborate and twisted plan to keep the affairs of the world in order........'

 

I mean how blunt a story teller can get in his bias.....its just ridiculous.......

 

 

Sounds like the writers were damned if they do, damned if they don't.   Would you feel the writer was biased and pushing his thoughts on you if the story ended with all gods were real and infallible?  How could the story have ended end satisfactorily to you? 

 

 

That's not true, i guess there will be some criticism always, but defending blatant and biased story telling by saying that writers are always damned no matter which way they go, is not justified......

 

I have already said what could have rendered the story unbiased, but its not up to me, it was up to the writer to be unbiased in the story telling.........

 

I have only this to say, I am against portraying a concept as an uncontested or universal truth of any world and push the protagonist forward in such scenario by taking all opportunity away from him to create a contrast ......

Edited March 10, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[house2fly]

 

 

I am against portraying a concept as an uncontested or universal truth of any world and push the protagonist forward in such scenario by taking all opportunity from him to create a contrast ......

I agree, for example I dislike Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate because the gods' existence is accepted as an uncontested and universal truth and I can't role play as an atheist.

[Brimsurfer]

 

Here in PoE the game accepts the idea of a world tricked into believing in unreal gods as a universal truth

When something is revealed the game acts as if it has been revealed to you!  Quelle horreur!

 

 

 

in the final act the story shamelessly narrowed down to the writer's personal disposition in real life and that's what called as biased, impure or contaminated storytelling.

Go on then.  What is the writer's personal disposition in real life and how does it influence the story.

 

Its already been discussed before.......

 

I am identifying a trend in your posts.......now if I end my post here, judging from the matter of your previous posts, I am sure you will ask me 'what trend is that?' before ending your own post abruptly...and to that I will say, 'you know what I am talking about, sir.....'

[Brimsurfer]

 

I am against portraying a concept as an uncontested or universal truth of any world and push the protagonist forward in such scenario by taking all opportunity from him to create a contrast ......

I agree, for example I dislike Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate because the gods' existence is accepted as an uncontested and universal truth and I can't role play as an atheist.

 

There are cults in Forgotten Realms that believe in strength of will and other things but not any Gods.......

 

BTW you are actually acting like an atheist by coming up with nonsensical arguments........and don't ask me what cults I am talking about, you can read up FR lore on your own and find out, you know how to read, I am guessing......

Edited March 9, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Zenbane]

Someone convince Brimsurfer to go play the Diablo series from Blizzard. That way he can spend several weeks trying to convince that community that the developers are trying to force Satanism down peoples throats lol

 

The only thing this thread proves is that Brimsurfer is easily impressionable.

 

PoE's narrative only applies to the fictitious fantasy world in which that narrative was told. Any relation to the real world are purely coincidental. You know, like at the end of movie credits.

[house2fly]

 

 

 

I am against portraying a concept as an uncontested or universal truth of any world and push the protagonist forward in such scenario by taking all opportunity from him to create a contrast ......

I agree, for example I dislike Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate because the gods' existence is accepted as an uncontested and universal truth and I can't role play as an atheist.

There are cults in Forgotten Realms that believe in strength of will and other things but not any Gods.......

 

BTW you are actually acting like an atheist by coming up with nonsensical arguments........and don't ask me what cults I am talking about, you can read up FR lore on your own and find out, you know how to read, I am guessing......

Could you name some points in, say, Baldur's Gate 2 where the player character is given the option to express that they do not believe the gods of the setting exist?

[gogocactus]

 

 

 

^ Yeah its really easy to see how being an atheist and believing in silly things like life, love, art, science, family, friends and coffee can be misconstrued as being a nilhist.... and living a life completely devoid of meaning.

To be honest, coffee is one thing I don't want to believe in. But alas, it's hard to ignore it's call and beckoning.

I hope you drink your coffee black, as it was meant to be, and not perverting its beany glory with cream or sugar like a heretic.

When I drink coffee, I try to limit myself to strong espressos. Purely for the taste .

 

However, similar to house2fly, I am currently in the (rocky) process of trying not to drink it too often so as not to become too dependent on it.

[tinysalamander]

Milk & sugar coffee for the Horus!

[gogocactus]

Milk & sugar coffee for the Horus!

If I may ask, what is a Horus? It sounds very Egyptian, or Warhammer like.

[tinysalamander]

If I may ask, what is a Horus? It sounds very Egyptian, or Warhammer like.

 

The intent was to invoke Warhammer (since someone mentioned heresy), yes.

[Caribou]

 

If I may ask, what is a Horus? It sounds very Egyptian, or Warhammer like.

 

The intent was to invoke Warhammer (since someone mentioned heresy), yes.

 

 

You were blasphemous at the mention of milk and sugar! 

 

Next you'll be telling us you don't drink your whiskey neat.

[tinysalamander]

 

 

If I may ask, what is a Horus? It sounds very Egyptian, or Warhammer like.

 

The intent was to invoke Warhammer (since someone mentioned heresy), yes.

 

 

You were blasphemous at the mention of milk and sugar! 

 

Next you'll be telling us you don't drink your whiskey neat.

 

 

Worse. I don't drink alcohol at all

[Zenbane]

If you played PoE and don't drink alcohol then you haven't been properly paying attention to the brainwashing narrative within the story. Alcohol is very prevalent, and is clearly presented as a biased uncontested universal truth that pushes the protagonist forward to... drink.

 

 

I have only this to say, I am against portraying a concept as an uncontested or universal truth of any world and push the protagonist forward in such scenario by taking all opportunity from him to create a contrast ......

 

Then you should remove yourself from the fantasy realm and spend more time in the real world, to be honest. When you subject yourself to the work of others (books, movies, music, video games, etc) you are automatically subjecting yourself to whatever the author wishes to portray. Instead of being a follower and complaining about how you are being led, try to lead yourself.

[tinysalamander]

@Zenbane

It is but a non-existant obstacle to my priestess' path to Eothasness divine massacre mass retirement.

And I've got Deceptive 1 from somewhere around WM2 (I think) even though I tried my best to not choose anything that might involve deceit… Took Untroubled faith (priest) after that just because.

 

[B_Dubb_B]

Meh, I see no issue with a fictitious universe having one particular pantheon of gods be shown to likely be created beings. I'm a Christian (apologist, actually), and I thought that twist was cool.

 

What I didn't think was cool was the lack of good dialogue from a religious standpoint. If you role-played your character to try to maintain his or her own belief in a God, the dialogue forced you to either be an idiot or a "blind faith" type. This is funny considering the standard concept of faith in the real world's largest religion has nothing (necessarily) to do with blind faith, as it claims in it's holy text that God proved his own existence hundreds of times in the Old Testament and the entire new Testament was based on the premise of Jesus proving he was sent by God's through miracles (for example, the biggest event in the entire religion, the resurrection, was to attempt to prove to the witnesses that his claims to divinity were true). It may be easy to see all the blind-faith types in the real world and assume that's what every religion itself teaches, but that's not an accurate view of reality at all.

 

Now, I'm not saying I want Pillars to represent Christianity specifically (in a universe where no such things exist), but instead that it give interesting/intelligent dialogue from the perspective of a religious person in that universe.

[Brimsurfer]

Meh, I see no issue with a fictitious universe having one particular pantheon of gods be shown to likely be created beings. I'm a Christian (apologist, actually), and I thought that twist was cool.

 

What I didn't think was cool was the lack of good dialogue from a religious standpoint. If you role-played your character to try to maintain his or her own belief in a God, the dialogue forced you to either be an idiot or a "blind faith" type. This is funny considering the standard concept of faith in the real world's largest religion has nothing (necessarily) to do with blind faith, as it claims in it's holy text that God proved his own existence hundreds of times in the Old Testament and the entire new Testament was based on the premise of Jesus proving he was sent by God's through miracles (for example, the biggest event in the entire religion, the resurrection, was to attempt to prove to the witnesses that his claims to divinity were true). It may be easy to see all the blind-faith types in the real world and assume that's what every religion itself teaches, but that's not an accurate view of reality at all.

 

Now, I'm not saying I want Pillars to represent Christianity specifically (in a universe where no such things exist), but instead that it give interesting/intelligent dialogue from the perspective of a religious person in that universe.

 

 

Writer's personal dispositions got the better of him, that's what it is.......he strayed from unbiased story telling whether consciously or unconsciously but the dialogue of last act and the specific wording of it, relays heavy atheistic vibe....... and I am not a Christian and I am not particularly a religious person but I am no atheist either......and there are many unbiased games and stories out there that contain elements from various religious and political dispositions and I admire them ........ unbiased tales do not make such elements the universal truths of that tale, unbiased story telling demands it......its just bad writing to base a tale entirely on a singular (non) religious / political disposition, it takes away from the reader, or a player, more than it should.........

 

I literally felt like all doors and windows were closed and I was being pushed forward in blindfolds in a narrow corridor, that's essentially how the final act of the game made me feel........it was abhorrent......

Edited March 10, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[house2fly]

What PC dialogue options are you thinking of that were so biased? You've still not said that.

[Brimsurfer]

What PC dialogue options are you thinking of that were so biased? You've still not said that.

I have said it many times.........

Edited March 10, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[house2fly]

Sorry, I guess I missed it. You mostly talk in generalities like "I am forced the accept that there are no gods as an uncontested fact" and I don't remember any dialogue options to that effect so I wondered what you were basing it on.

[Baron Pampa]

I've only played through the endgame once, so I might not remember correctly, but I think that OP might have a point in this one. There were essentially two paths, as far as I remember: condemn Thaos in the name of truth, or accept his ethics of lies for the sake of peace, stability and order. Choosing another path, i.e.arguing that gods are gods regardless of their origins, or stating that the truth is irrelevant because people wouldn't be convinced by it anyway, or they would still believe in the values the gods stand for(Eder comes to mind), is certainly sensible for many characters, so it's easily understandable that many people who would like to do that find the ending lacking. Still wouldn't call it an atheist cliche, though.

[Zenbane]

I agree that the ending could seem lacking due to the lack of options, but the OP's point is that this is an atheist cliche. As you stated, it's not that at all, so no, Brimsurfer doesn't have a valid point here. This thread's title should be: "perspectives of someone who takes video games too seriously"

[Qbert]

I haven't read through the entire thread but i'm not sure why the op is being ridiculed for bringing this up.  There have been threads discussing this since release. It's been noted mulitple times that the developers used their own real world liberal philosophies to guide the creation of the game world and with at least one of the devs being an admitted atheist/agnostic why is it a leap to believe that those philosophies influenced the game as well? 

 

An entire civilization (one that is the most advanced in animancy aka science) at the time finds that there are no gods, so they seek to create synthetic gods (through societal genocide) in order to placate the masses.  The villan of the story uses the power of those synthetic gods to travel throughout history making sure that science cannot progress to a point where people again may find that no gods exist, and he uses many brutal tactics to ensure that his religion survives.  There is no choice at the end to say i reject these made up gods, but i also reject the notion that there are no gods at all. 

 

It's been a long time since i played this game so i hope i have the basic story correct but if so that could easily be construed as pro atheist/agnostic to me.

[Brimsurfer]

I haven't read through the entire thread but i'm not sure why the op is being ridiculed for bringing this up.  There have been threads discussing this since release. It's been noted mulitple times that the developers used their own real world liberal philosophies to guide the creation of the game world and with at least one of the devs being an admitted atheist/agnostic why is it a leap to believe that those philosophies influenced the game as well? 

 

An entire civilization (one that is the most advanced in animancy aka science) at the time finds that there are no gods, so they seek to create synthetic gods (through societal genocide) in order to placate the masses.  The villan of the story uses the power of those synthetic gods to travel throughout history making sure that science cannot progress to a point where people again may find that no gods exist, and he uses many brutal tactics to ensure that his religion survives.  There is no choice at the end to say i reject these made up gods, but i also reject the notion that there are no gods at all. 

 

It's been a long time since i played this game so i hope i have the basic story correct but if so that could easily be construed as pro atheist/agnostic to me.

 

I don't care what anyone is saying about this topic, I am calling it as I am seeing it.........its a blatant disregard for unbiased story telling with shameless inclination towards anti-theism........

 

Its just so convenient that the deities in this game are shown as a lie and the world is fooled to believe in them and the villain of the world has a nefarious agenda to make sure that people foolishly keep believing in these false gods.........nice work, great!!.......you just vomited your misguided personal dispositions all over my clothes......I just hope you don't do it again, otherwise i'll have to keep my distance and make sure others know this too that you are capable of doing such a thing.......

[Tigranes]

Oh, the question of religious doubt / atheism / whatever vis-a-vis the ending is a perfectly valid and interesting one. And I'd certainly expect to see, in POE2, cases where the player can choose to continue to worship these 'fake' gods, or to come across NPCs that have good reasons for protecting their religious faith. 

 

The OP just began with a basic confusion about (1) a fictional story where the gods are artificially constructed, and (2) the range of reasonable options that the player might be given as a response. It's like playing a game where you find out X murdered some jews and gives you some options, and the OP is complaining that the game is biased because you can't argue that X is not a murderer.

 

Then, over the course of the thread, the OP began to aggregate selected pieces of misinformation to increasingly convince himself that this is a partisan conspiracy: e.g. believing that Josh Sawyer is solely and specifically responsible for the ending story (not true). He also refused to really respond to counter-arguments, instead choosing to repeat himself over and over and over and over and over again; e.g. he does not understand that the entire point of the story, as told in the game, is that religion and faith and gods may not be meaningless or fake just because you find out the gods are constructed.

 

*shrug*

[kvaak]

 the developers used their own real world liberal philosophies to guide the creation of the game world

 

[citation needed]

 

 

 

e.g. he does not understand that the entire point of the story, as told in the game, is that religion and faith and gods may not be meaningless or fake just because you find out the gods are constructed.

 

When you're wearing rose-tinted glasses it's hard to see any other colours.

 

I also found it somewhat baffling that while such dialogue choices do appear elsewhere you can't just say "you know, you might have a point" to Thaos.

 

 

 

Oh, the question of religious doubt / atheism / whatever vis-a-vis the ending is a perfectly valid and interesting one. And I'd certainly expect to see, in POE2, cases where the player can choose to continue to worship these 'fake' gods, or to come across NPCs that have good reasons for protecting their religious faith.

 

You certainly get the option to feed the souls to Woedica*, plus apart from the aforementioned exception with Thaos you generally get the 'blissful ignorance' dialogue choices. That isn't of course quite the same as actively following your false (but very real) gods. Some of your followers don't seem to mind this revelation /that/ much either, Hiravias at least seems to stay a follower of Galawain to some degree (or Wael, if you inclined him that way?).

 

* = this might have some specific requirements, I only got the option on one of my playthroughs.

Edited March 11, 2016 by kvaak