Couple of Rogue questions

[Drachenwulf]

Aside from Stilleto for it's dr bypass, what are the best melee weapons for rogues?

 

should a rogue be Single weapon, Two weapon or weapon and shield? (for the deflection bonus)

 

Am I correct in guessing that I should be using companions to inflict status ailments that enable sneak attacks and deflection debuffs on enemies over trying to buff the rogue's accuracy?

 

likewise for debuffing enemy accuracy over buffing rogue deflection?

 

Is the weapon bonus of doing the best of 2 different damage types as good as it seems on paper? (examples swords or warhammers)

 

What exactly is the weapon bonus for sabers?

[Boeroer]

What is the best melee weapon for your rogue can't be answered universally. It depends on your build and how you play. If you ask 10 experienced players that question you will get like 20  different answers. But probably the answer you'll get the most is sabres.

 

A rogue who takes a lot of special attack abilities like Crippling Strike, Blinding Strike and so on profits most from using two weapons. Those special attacks are full attacks - meaning that you will hit with each weapon in quick succession - even if you're a slow guy otherwise. Singe Weapon usage is widely considered inferior to any other style except n the early parts of the game where you will have a lot of misses.

 

Using companions for debuffs is - in my opinion - the best and fastest way to enable sneak attack and death blows. You can do it by yourself - but debuffing enemies should be your number one priortity anyways so why let the rogue do that? He should focus on dealing damage.

 

Ideally you want to raise your ACC and lower enemies' defenses at the same time.

 

If you have two weapon sets for melee weapons then you don't need to worry about different damage types on one weapon. For example a rogue who wants to use Estocs can easily switch to a Pollaxe in his 2. weapon slot if he meets enemies who are immune to pierce damage. Normallly you can do this with every Weapon Focus group. For example Ruffian has pierce (Stiletto), slash (sabre) and crush (club) - Soldier has pierce/crush (war hammer), slash/pierce (great sword) - Adventurer has pierce (Estoc), slash/crush (Pollaxe) and crush (flails). So you don't trap yourself with a special Weapon Focus in terms of damage type. However - it can be quite convenient to have two damage types on one weapon.

 

Sabres have the highest base damage of all one handed weapons. Since all damage bonunes (+x% damage) are calculated with that base damage, it's a good bonus for a rogue since he stacks a lot of those damage bonuses. The fact that there are two sabres in the game that also double your bonus damage for critical hits make those two sabres ideal for rogues who tend to crit a lot. However - it's not only damage you should consider when planning your rogue. Although I have to admit that dual sabres is always a solid choice for a melee rogue.

 

I - on the other hand - like to use characters that are sturdy but also do ok damage. I seldomly build melee glass cannons or pure tanks nowadays. I want to have a party of six in which everybody is doing damage and everybody can at least stand a few hits without kissing the ground. For me the game is way easier this way. The "old" apporach of using a sturdy or tanky front line that holds off the enemy while my glass cannon backline or flankers do all the damage is so much fuzz and the outcome in terms of damage dealt is nearly the same as if everybody just deals ok damage. THe difference is that I don't have to babysit all my squishies.

 

The good thing is you can achieve this with nearly every class - rogues also. What I mean is you make him sturdier but still ensure he does good damage. You can do that with a shield. His dps will suffer, true, but a rogue with a sabre and a shield still does a lot of damage - while suddenly being able to be at the front line without passing out all the time. The netto outcome for me is that those rogues do even more damage at the end of the day because they don't go k.o. all the time. But that's just my gusto and approach.  

Edited March 1, 2016 by Boeroer

[Jojobobo]

One thing I'd mention that above and beyond the easiest way to get sneak attacks is flanking. With a party just run some guys round the back of the enemy and you'll instantly see your damage go up, or you can use stealth with your rogue to sneak him round back to get a flank as well.

 

I agree with Boeroer, going the slightly bulkier route to me is better than the glass cannon approach for me. If you take Weapon and Shield Style and use the Larder Door, you get a full bash attack and a full normal attack with a per encounter status ailment ability - which I've found going solo on POTD with a rogue is pretty decent.

[Drachenwulf]

so if I give my rogue a shield of some size, do you recommend Weapon and shield style? is there any point where the shields can be replaced by devensive talents to boost deflection? if there is a chance to have a durable rogue that can dual wield sabres then I would rather not have to spend the coin to respec 1 talent (weapon and shield to two weapon)

[3rdID]

I thought "flanked" status was achieved by engaging an enemy with one more than their engagement limit and not positioning (attacking from both front and back). Has this changed?

[DreamWayfarer]

I thought "flanked" status was achieved by engaging an enemy with one more than their engagement limit and not positioning (attacking from both front and back). Has this changed?

As far as I know, it is both. When I have two characters engaged to the same foe, who is only engaged to one of them, but next to one another, there is no flanking. When I have two characters engaging o foe from opposite directions, but he is also engaging both, there is no flanking.

[Drachenwulf]

what attributes (M, C, D, P, I, R) should be considered or avoided for such a sturdier rogue?  my initial thoughts would be Dex, Per, and Res, with maybe some might thrown in...

[Boeroer]

The engagement limit of a character has no influence on his butt getting flanking - as far as I know. There are certain abilities and items that can increase the number of foes needed to flank you (One Stands Alone, Rupek's Watchful Cloak Mark II). But your additional engagement slots don't do that.

 

You automatically flank if you engage an enemy (that's a must) that is already engaged by one of your team members and you stand on the opposite side (with some tolerance).

Edited March 1, 2016 by Boeroer

[ottffsse]

Cautious attack+superior deflection would net you 13 deflection. Not quite as much as a shield, even small one (around 20) but quite solid. Add a +9 deflection ring and the Cloak of comfort and 5 to all defenses and you are at +27 deflection. Any resolve points over 10 add to that. That is how I have the devil of coruc set up, but with dual battle axes. Also two weapon fighting cancels out the speed penalty from cautious attack.

 

Attributes are might: 12-14 range not less than 10, more is good but not critical.

Constitution: 12ish

Dex : max it if possible

Perception: 15 is good, but not less than 10. I would rather put spare points into might.

Int : 6-7

Resolve: 12 should suffice. 13 if you put int at 6.

 

Take shadowing beyond for some get out of jail free moments.

[Boeroer]

Just looked into the Cyclopedia:
 

[Crucis]

I'm currently playing a Rogue PC in a party that's up to level 12 (not far form 13). So I have some perspective on this, though I won't claim to be a true expert.

 

1.  Best melee weapon.  IMO, there is no such thing.   Over the course of the game, you will face many different monsters with different strengths and weakness in terms of their DR's.  Getting too tied to any single weapon type can leave you really limited when you run up against an enemy with strong DR's vs your preferred weapon damage type. 

 

I am a player who just about always takes Arms Bearer on most every character, because I strongly favor having a ranged weapon and two melee weapon options (of different damage types).  You can get around this to a degree by using weapon types that have dual damage types, like Swords which are Slash/Pierce.  But honestly, I enjoy having the options.  Sometimes, part of my "options" is to have one 2H melee weapon and one 1H melee weapon with a shield for those times when I feel the need for better defenses.

 

One thing I would strongly suggest watching out for is this.  Stilettos may be nice weapons, but they are strictly piercing weapons ... same as all ranged weapons,  And if you have only two weapon slots and are using a ranged weapon and stilettos, you will be boned if you run up against monsters with very high Piercing DR or are outright immune to Piercing damage.  Of course, if you're 100% melee, you can do stilettos with one weapon set and something else in the other.  I prefer a Crushing damage type weapon for my second weapon because it's not that common that you'll see monsters who are immune to both crushing and either slashing or piercing.  IMO, a good backup crushing weapon is a quarterstaff, because it's both a crushing weapon and a reach weapon.

 

Moving on...

 

 

2. I don't really worry about debuffing an enemy's accuracy.  For my rogue, I care more about producing afflictions that will qualify for sneak attacks.  Mind you, they may still include accuracy debuffs, but that's not my primary concern.    Also note that with the new talent "Apprentice's Sneak Attack" apparently being fairly popular, producing sneak attack qualifying afflictions helps more than just your rogue if you have others who are using this talent.

 

 

3. Weapon Style:  I'm not using one.  Heck, my rogue doesn't even have a weapon focus.  The closest I come to a weapon "style" or "focus" is Marksman.  Why?  Because I really haven't settled on any specific weapons, ranged or melee for my rogue.  I've had him changing his weapons relative often, while 4 out of the 5 other Companions are fixed on specific weapon types.  Eder and Pallegina using Soldier.  Durance doesn't have a specific Focus, but he's using the Magran specific talent that gives him +10 accuracy with swords and arquebusses.  And Kana is using the Adventurer focus,  Only GM doesn't have a focus, mostly because I've been giving her others stuff to strengthen other areas.  She's been using that soulbound shortbow for a while now (she does have Marksman), but like my rogue PC, GM has been flipping around on her melee weapons, which she tends not to use all that often.

 

All that said, if you have your heart set on a weapon focus, go for it.  But there's something to be said for not picking one and not feeling tied to one.  And being able to try out a bunch of different weapons without feeling that you just had to stick within a given weapon group.  Besides, it's also kinda fun to be able to use all sorts of different weapons in my PC Rogue without feeling constrained.

 

 

3. What is so special about sabers?  As a type, Sabers are a single damage type weapon, with average speed, but have a higher base damage range than swords or battleaxes.  And there a fair number of nice ones in the base PoE game, but only 1 new one in WM1.  People are drawn to that high base damage, and the fact that the unique sabers are mostly quite solid weapons with pretty good special effects, unlike some weapons in other types.  Also, when thinking about sabers and Rogues, the higher base damage when combined with sneak attacks (and perhaps more common crits) means higher damage output per hit than you might get from other weapon types.  At least that's my theory.

 

 

Anyways, that's all I have for now.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Crucis

[Mocker22]

I play around with this type of rogue build a bit lately. I have dex, per, and res pumped with everything else around 10. You don't need to pump Might on a rogue, you get a ton of other damage bonuses. As for the shield....well no there isn't other ways to get that amount of defl. It doesn't mean your dual-wielder can't have some decent defenses but not as much. I'd use either Sura supper plate for retaliation attacks or Little Savior for +5 def aura. Even just left at Superior little savior gives you +25 defl and another 6 from weapon and shield talent. Also, that all goes to your reflex save which is so handy if you mess up and get caught in a dragon breath.

 

Crusis's opinions about weapon focus are a bit unique imo. If you really want to build a jack-of-all-trades it would work, but its not ideal imo.

 

Sabres really are the mac-daddy for dps. A couple of unique sabres have Annihilation, which gives +50% crit damage. Along with durgan steel, and a couple quest related talents, you're at 170% crit dmg. Now with a rogue it is really easy to be 50%++ hit to crit conversion and you have a very high accuracy anyways, resulting in lots of crits.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Mocker22

[Drachenwulf]

How useful is Death's Usher?  How often does one encounter Burn and/or Freeze Damage? what other races would be good for a sturdier rogue other than death godlike or pale elf?

Edited March 1, 2016 by Drachenwulf

[Boeroer]

For a rogue who focuses on crits you will definitely want a hearth orlan for a melee flanker or a wood elf for ranged.

 

For sturdier rogues you can use wild orlan, pale elf, moon godlike of course and also coastal aumaua. Boreal dwarves are somewhat in between. Nice ACC buff with a bit of extra CON.

I think in terms of power Death and Nature Godlike are crap.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Boeroer

[Crucis]

How useful is Death's Usher?  How often does one encounter Burn and/or Freeze Damage? what other races would be good for a sturdier rogue other than death godlike or pale elf?

 

I would think that Death's Usher would sync well with a Rogue.  This racial ability is not unlike other rogue and general talents that do more damage when the target's Endurance is low.  Finishing Blow and Bloody Slaughter come to mind.

 

As for other races, Hearth Orlans are generally considered to make good rogues due to their racial ability.  Wood elves are an obvious choice for ranged rogues, or ranged anything.  Elven attribute bonuses are good for rogues, in general (i.e. +1 to DEX and PER).

[Drachenwulf]

not sure how I feel about orlans...more of a visual thing... I have trouble seeing them as party leaders LOL (kinda the same thing with dwarves)

Edited March 1, 2016 by Drachenwulf

[Crucis]

For a rogue who focuses on crits you will definitely want a hearth orlan for a melee flanker or a wood elf for ranged.

 

For sturdier rogues you can use wild orlan, pale elf, moon godlike of course and also coastal aumaua. Boreal dwarves are somewhat in between. Nice ACC buff with a bit of extra CON.

I think in terms of power Death and Nature Godlike are crap.

 

Personally, I don't like any godlikes.  I don't like the look.  I don't like giving up the item slot.  I don't like racial abilities that only trigger when your END goes below certain trigger levels.  Visually, I dislike Death GL's the most, and yet I think that their racial ability is among the more useful, if only because it doesn't trigger on your own low END but on an enemy's low END. 

 

On a different note, I don't like how they say that GL's not well like in the PoE civilization, and yet you never are the target of this as a PC, not do you witness it during the game.  The game SAYS that GL's aren't liked in its civilization, but there's no actual evidence of this dislike.

[Crucis]

not sure how I feel about orlans...more of a visual thing... I have trouble seeing them as party leaders LOL

 

Agreed. I've never played an Orlan PC.  Nor did I ever play a halfling PC in the BG or IWD games.  Maybe that's a discriminatory attitude, but like you, I have a hard time seeing someone that short being a real leader, unless the rest of the party is made up of Orlans or perhaps  Dwarves.

[Drachenwulf]

should a rogue with a shield avoid reckless assault (negates some or all of the shield bonus) or vulnerable attack (nothing to mitigate the speed penalty)?

[Ymarsakar]

Reckless assault is still a modal, so just turn it off if you are getting hit hard. So the shield is still good with it. If you aren't getting hit at all, reckless on always.

 

As for leaders and orlans, leaders have power for a couple of reasons.

 

1. Their personal power or prowess is sufficient enough to beat anybody else around, so people cluster around the security source.

 

2. They have hidden resources and talents that offers protection and benefit to their subordinates, which their subordinates cannot acquire any other way.

 

An orlan cipher, for example, would be able to charm or dominate people, thus acquiring hidden resources, which draws in subordinates.

 

In game lore, it's the Watcher abilities and title which is the reason people follow you around. Or Caed Nua.

[Drachenwulf]

oh I forgot to ask, for any character does the hatchet deflection bonus stack if dual wielding hatchets?

 

nevermind asked a friend and he says they do.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Drachenwulf