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[2.03] Dragon and Absurd Immunity


theBalthazar

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Hello guys,

 

In 2.03, the two dragon have absurd immunity.

 

I understand the immunity to the prone for Sky Dragon, because he can jump and fly. Its credible.

 

BUT

 

Why the dragon adra immune to the trap prone ?

 

It is expected that a dragon , given its weight, is sensitive to prone trap.

There is too much immunity I think... 

At the same time , some troubles are favored in not being immunity , and in both cases.

Stunned in particular. Work on both. Favoring certain classes.

 

This removes ways of approaching the fight. Only one way, promoting aggressive side of the game (attack...). And I think that is unfortunate.

One boring immunity : yes (Among Petrification, Prone, Stun). But more, it gets too invasive.

Adra Dragon : Petrification is a great choice and Role play (Shell of adra etc).

Sky Dragon : Prone is a great choice. (Jump and fly easy, flexibility of the beast etc.).

But no more immunity, One and only one.

 

That's just my opinion^^

 

EDIT : In all the case, the french descriptions of two dragons (bestiary) not mention the immunities.

 

877718immunities.jpg

Edited by theBalthazar
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I can only imagine that it is to prevent tiny Fighters from knocking the massive dragon prone with a swing of their sword.

Edited by AndreaColombo
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"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

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I really can't imagine how you would knock down a dragon. Compare your sizes and imagine the muscle of body/mind you would need to accomplish something like that. It's like asking a small child to flip over a 2 story, brick house. Good luck.

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Is not the question.

 

The interest is the gameplay and, if its congruous, the role play.

 

The question is :

 

"Add too much immunity is interesting or not to play ? For the gameplay ? for the variety of approach ?

Without petrification without prone, it remains the stun and paralysie after all, which is not logical.

Do you think you can knock (stunned affliction) a dragon ? No , it 's the same argument you use : stun is not particulary logicial also, for the two case, for the two dragons.

 

The question is :

 

The absence of the stun immunity is not problematic fo me. BUT the presence of prone immunity is.

 

Two key afflictions immunities on a dragon push the people to forget certain class already low play...

 

I think the great balacing is one, and only one affliction immunity among Petrification, stunning, paralysis and prone.

 

More, its too much. Its only my opinion. With two immunity, if i have a plan with prone and petrification, the time i have to understand nothing work, i will must reload.

 

You speak of the body of the dragon. But overthrow him is just something that should be possible given its weight. No ?

Ultimately, the sky dragon can jump, 
It is recognized that this immunity has meaning. But the dragon adra is cumbersome and must be difficult to manage his weight when he prone, if it collapses. The immunity on this occasion is strange and not legit.

Edited by theBalthazar
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Well, it's hard to say where a dragon's centre of mass is, but I'd guess you could calculate it and then find out how much energy someone would need to push one, having in mind that the dragon would push back not only with it's mass, but also it's muscle. Violently so ;) As for gameplay I rather enjoy that a dragon isn't CCable, as it'd make the fights much more trivial. As it is you can use petrification, which is quite rare, so you need to plan a fight and hope to God you get enough time to buff your guys sufficiently before having to run in.
I doubt it's a problem to remove cc immunities from bosses in this game, but as I said, it'd trivialize the fights and you wouldn't exactly feel like you were fighting a fabled creature of immense power.

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Overall, the game is simple.

Petrification for example, it is ironic because it almost never used (don't need 
to go that far, the enemies die before...), except for large enemies like... dragons ... ... !

The debate is not about whether or not to add the challenge. There is no challenge to a stun power by druid for exemple, with the power of level 5. (-30 deflection, the ennemie can't move and attack : works on the two dragons.)

You just have to know the immunities. So, the battle becomes more boring than difficult. AND certain option become useless. Petrification become useless for exemple. The rest of the game, except dragons, don't need petrification. It just a game where the goal become : find immunities... Only that. Break the pleasure of increment affliction.

 

And, don't forget, the informations of the creature appear after his death or by multiplying combats. So not guessable by default .

Edited by theBalthazar
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To be honest with you I never ever expected to be able to KB a dragon. I haven't even bothered reading their descriptions because I know they hit like a truck, brush off most damage and react to petrification. I don't know if you want to leave that to a player's intuition, though, or if you want everything written in the bestiary, but I guess leaving it to us has its' charm.

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^ At level 14 you can kill both with no spamming :)

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

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Yes, you can force at level 14.

 

But in this case, its attack / attack / attack click. No more reflexion. The afflictions is don't required any more after all.

 

Add some afflictions immunities also in this case is useless if we do not use ?^^

 

Why establish an affliction based strategy? If just being aggressive and most afflictions that do not pass ? This encourages aggression and no-brain in game.

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A number of afflictions still work; it is for players to figure out which ones suit their strategy. You can brute-force them at level 14, but afflictions still make things easier for you.

 

I, for one, never used Frightened or Terrified against dragons so I don't care much for those immunities. The others just mean I need to find a way around them instead of spamming the usual awesomesauce Prone button.

Edited by AndreaColombo

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

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What ??? Immunity missing in bestiary is a french version display bug ???

Now I understand why I couldn't see them.

 

Would a VO player be kind enough to list some of the immunities ? I can't find them anywhere...

I'm especially interest in Adra Dragon, Alpine Dragon and the Lich.

 

I managed to defeat the Alpine yesterday and it seems he was immune to paralysis, prone AND stun.

My party was made before 2.03 and I had not planned this situation...

I don't want to be in the same situation on next run...

Edited by Elric Galad
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Adra Dragon

- Prone

- Stuck

- Frightened

- Terrified

- Petrified

 

Alpine Dragon

- Prone

- Stuck

- Frightened

- Terrified

- Paralyzed

- Stunned

 

Lich won't list them if you've only defeated one ... and there is only one in the game so far.

  • Like 1

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

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Yes, the stuck, frightened and terrified is not problem.

 

I faced the Alpin dragon just a few minutes ago.

 

But... Stunned / Paralyzed / Prone... Lol ! Wtf...?

 

I beat him at the second try (the time to understand his immunities) but... without my knowledge of the game, its impossible to pass him.

 

requires a specific team. Druid / Magician.

 

I managed to defeat the Alpine yesterday and it seems he was immune to paralysis, prone AND stun.
My party was made before 2.03 and I had not planned this situation...
I don't want to be in the same situation on next run... 

 

 

 

I do a french let's play right now and I had the same thought : the rules change too often in this game.

Edited by theBalthazar
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And druid one's share the same spot as relentless storm which is also extremely useful for this fight.

 

The dragon is not immune to confusion, charm and domination by the way. So cipher or scroll of confusion could work too (I think alpine Will is not his highest defense).

 

Lich did not seem immune to prone, stun or parlysis. I think the 3 worked when I faced it. Not sure for the rest.

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Yes, cheat-Cipher is back. He can troll the three dragons. Disadvantage other classes.

 

Domination and charm is normally a logical extension of frightened and terrified immunities.

 

RP is strange. The most popular RPG describe dragons with a huge strengh mental, but now in pillars of eternity, the dragons can't fall but... 

 

... we can convince them to go drink tea.

 

Bravo Obsidian : p

Edited by theBalthazar
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Don't remove any. The fights shouldn't be even more cheesable ;) If there's a gripe, then it's rather the insane amounts of trash around the dragon, pretty much forcing players to have a druid along for the storm. On the other hand, if there was no trash, it'd be quite brainless send in your own trash, buff, go in, debuff dragon, kill, yawn and have no respect for the fabled creature ;)

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Don't remove any. The fights shouldn't be even more cheesable ;) If there's a gripe, then it's rather the insane amounts of trash around the dragon, pretty much forcing players to have a druid along for the storm. On the other hand, if there was no trash, it'd be quite brainless send in your own trash, buff, go in, debuff dragon, kill, yawn and have no respect for the fabled creature ;)

 

SamHam has a point! Whatever happened to Chivalry? A one-on-six duel? 

(I'm joking but I actually do agree. Should be a boss battle, not a boss + army battle)

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My problem with alpine dragon was that it was changed after I made my party, and that I didn't think in using confusion against it.

 

But I manage to defeat it (I have no clue how I did this) so now it's not a pb anymore.

 

OP cipher ? Mmm I don't know. The 3 major fights are not against 3 dragons (the sky one is easy). The 3rd hard fight is against Lich and vessels that happens to be immune to mind spells. So I guess it helps balancing. Anyway, ciphers are made to be Crowd Controllers with lot of variety. So I suppose it's normal that they have a CC spell for every case (like wizard by the way).

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The best strategy against that one dragon was, for me at least, just attack it head on and ignore all the trash, letting stormcaller and the druid take care of that with aoe. Obviously while buffing like mad and debuffing the dragon once it was alone. I was actualy quite baffled when the fight ended abruptly with a 57 crit from my warrior. The only thing that might need a change to the dragons is the crafting materials dropped. Why can't they just all drop wings and eyes? For me the alpine one only dropped dragon meat. Woopdido.

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Yes, it is complicated to balanced.

 

On one hand, if there is too much immunity it will disturb those who do not know these immunities. If one knows the weakness of the dragon, just activate the right power. This does not change the approach after all. It will just be boring.

 

Only the petrification can change the battle (and shorten a bit). But the petrification is really only useful with the dragons (all the ennemies with much health points)

 
On the other hand , if there is no immunity , one can ride on the dragon with debuffs , starting with repulsing seal ( trap bonus is useful).
Note : remember that we are gamers, people familiar with the game and afflictions (mecanics of the game).
 
The proper balancing wants there to be a different immunity for each dragon, a strong and unique marker, representing him. I think It is the best solution.
 
----
 
Samham : Yes i agree with you, the loot of alpine dragon is disappointing 
Edited by theBalthazar
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