Some (more) thoughts on the Stash

[Gairnulf]

I thought I'd write this as a response to another thread, but since it got long and not related to that thread's subject, I'm going to post it here.

 

There's quite a difference between "challenging" a player's free time and challenging a player's strategic thinking ability. If their intention was to challenge the player's free time, why have they implemented the stash? They even made it possible to rest from anywhere once you reach the keep area to prevent "making the game less enjoyable" for those who wish to "abuse" extra free stats.

I'm going off topic here, but since the stash was mentioned...

 

I think the point of the stash is "convenience" rather than "save the player time". If the player wants to save time he shouldn't be playing a game in the first place.

 

Some people have commented that managing the inventory was a tedious activity in the IE games. I say that managing the inventory was a part of PnP on which the IE games are based. If a fantasy cRPG for s.o. is "I go around killing monsters", then the IE games are not the right thing for them. Weight allowance and limited inventory space added fun for me, and probably for many others, while the limitless inventory causes unforeseen problems, which are evident by now, and I've mentioned previously.

 

Not that the IE games' inventory management was perfect of course - enough to remember that you can fill up your inventory with very light objects and still be unable to pick up something, not because of its weight, but because your grid is full.

 

I think the stash in PoE can be quickly fixed, if it just gets a weight allowance limit, based on the party's total constitution, or total strength. Then the stash would play the role of the party's combined inventory, with the individual grids only used for the player's convenience, to put items associated with a given party member into this party member's grid. Whenever something goes to a party member's grid, or stash, its weight is measured against the total party weight allowance limit.

 

This would spare the shifting of inventory items between players' grids while still requiring the player to manage the total weight of the party's inventory. In case that fills up, the player can hoard items in containers which however would not be accessible from anywhere in the game, like the stash is, but in return, the weight of items stashed there wouldn't count towards the party's limit.

 

Handling changes to the party's weight limit when party members are added and removed:

Simplest solution I can think of - excess non-quest items, sorted by lowest price are "magically" sent to a container in the Stronghold. If the player removes one of the three party members he can have before getting to the Stronghold, then if the updated inventory size would exceed the new limit (after removing the party member), excess items are stored in that party member's inventory in such a way as to reduce the party inventory's weight down to a possible minimum, while removing the maximum weight for the minimum money cost of items.

[Fenixp]

How about adding a poll? You want inventory management: Yes, No, I don't care? Anyway, I don't really give a **** - if Pillars contained system similar to that present in Baldur's Gate, okay, whatever. Having a stash accessible in stronghold would be a big plus for uniques, but I could easily do without that as well. Similarly, I don't mind the system Pillars of Eternity uses either, and it's not like there wasn't a form of endless stash in Baldur's Gate 2 - I guess you've had to find it there at least. Neither of these systems makes too much sense however. I suppose I'd just lift weight restrictions, because all that did was that I spent several minutes swapping items around inventories until it was okay - that's neither fun nor immersive, it's just busywork.

[djphong]

play expert mode, stash only available when u'r in town.

[Gairnulf]

I thought about adding a poll, but there are too few people active on the forum. I made a poll last week, about how often you pause your game, and just 20 people voted. So I doubt a poll would show anything about how a feature would be met by the average PoE players.

 

Yes, in the IE games you could find a container or two and keep lots of stuff there, but the inconvenience of having to trek through maps to reach this stash, without the "Double speed" feature of PoE, discouraged players from doing that. In PoE the player has every convenience needed in order to strip every area of every item - infinite stash, which is instantly accessible unless that's disabled by the player from the options screen, area loot feature, which defaults to 4m radius, and no weight to items. And then people complain how they have so much money they don't know what to do with it and loot loses relevance because they can buy the best items and ingredients for enchanting.

 

What I'm suggesting would eliminate the need to swap items around party members' inventory grids, while keeping some weight limitation, so that you can't take every item in the world.

 

Something else I forgot to mention - the IE games had items fading away after some time, if left on the street or in some "public" containers. I think this item fade, as well as dropping items in general wasn't implemented in PoE due to Unity-related issues, which the team didn't have the time to research and come up with a solution to. In light of that, the Stash sort of became the escape route - if we can't have the player drop items let's give him some container where he can keep them. I hope this changes for PoE 2.

[Zenbane]

 

 

I made a poll last week, about how often you pause your game, and just 20 people voted. So I doubt a poll would show anything about how a feature would be met by the average PoE players.

Well 20 people in a poll is still 19 more people than the 1 friend you polled in your PoE vs BG2 survey, right?

If not enough people respond then it's probably more an indication that no one cares about the issue. Be sure to include "I dont care" as a poll option.

 

I do agree with Fenixp regarding inventory management via Weight restrictions. Most Dungeon Crawlers do this, and it is not very fun nor immersive. Just time consuming in all the wrong ways, imo.

[wanderon]

BG2 also had bags of holding some (maybe all) of which were bottomless - along with ammo belts & quivers as I recall - I also seem to recall it's possible to restrict access to the "stash" in PoE - for my money that's a pretty good balancing act between accomadating folks who like inventory tetris and those who prefer the stash.

 

if that doesn't work for you - well you can simply use your own rules - it IS a single player game that you are free to play as you please - thus everyone is pretty much covered unless of course you wish to force others to play under your rules. 

 

Also only ground items faded - (becuase too many would slow down the game) containers would hold items forever unless it was on a map that changed. (when the map changed the container was replaced with a new (empty) one)

Edited November 1, 2015 by wanderon

[Gairnulf]

I don't get it why do some people feel obliged to defend decisions made in making the game even when this requires totally breaking away from logic. Especially when it's evident those decisions were made first and foremost to save time in a hurry, and to circumvent a technical issue, and not as part of the design. That's just like in another topic, where someone was explaining to me why it's unimportant to be able to see your recovery speed and to easily calculate your party members' damage.

 

BG2 also had bags of holding some (maybe all) of which were bottomless

Can you recall when did the player receive his first bag of holding? Because I bet you it wasn't at the start of the game, at level 1.

 

- along with ammo belts & quivers as I recall - I also seem to recall

No, they have a limit of 40 arrows/bolts/bullets.

 

it's possible to restrict access to the "stash" in PoE - for my money that's a pretty good balancing act between accomadating folks who like inventory tetris and those who prefer the stash.

I'm not advocating tetris, quite the opposite, I'm offering a solution to it. Restricting the stash doesn't mean much when in every civilized area you have access to it. So, the limitless inventory is there as soon as you are out of a dungeon. This is still an oversimplification for me. And while you don't have access to the stash, what do you have? The height of inventory management? Every item still weighs the same, so what you get is exactly the inventory tetris we want to avoid. The only limitation is the space in the grid, because items have no weight.

 

if that doesn't work for you - well you can simply use your own rules - it IS a single player game that you are free to play as you please - thus everyone is pretty much covered unless of course you wish to force others to play under your rules. 

I have been using my own rules, but if you think over your suggestion, there are still two problems which are not addressed by house rules: 1. Items still have no weight, so the result of my house rules will be inventory tetris. 2. Ingredients and quest items still go to my stash by default.

 

Also only ground items faded - (becuase too many would slow down the game) containers would hold items forever unless it was on a map that changed. (when the map changed the container was replaced with a new (empty) one)

I've never tested thoroughly so you're probably right, I don't know. Items fading from the ground "only" is still way better than being unable to drop items at all. Edited November 2, 2015 by Gairnulf

[wanderon]

^^^ So unlimited storage is ok later in the game but not from level 1?

 

Just becuase the game still allows you access inventory in civilized areas does not preclude you from having your own rules prohibiting it.

 

Why can't you assign your own weights and keep a running total next to your keyboard if it's that important to you?

 

IIRC the ammo belt that would hold multiple item types from TOB was high enough to make filling it unlikely.

 

AFAIK you can "drop items" into any container you wish including dead enemies (from regular inventory slots)

[jsaving]

How about adding a poll? You want inventory management: Yes, No, I don't care? Anyway, I don't really give a **** - if Pillars contained system similar to that present in Baldur's Gate, okay, whatever. Having a stash accessible in stronghold would be a big plus for uniques, but I could easily do without that as well. Similarly, I don't mind the system Pillars of Eternity uses either, and it's not like there wasn't a form of endless stash in Baldur's Gate 2 - I guess you've had to find it there at least. Neither of these systems makes too much sense however. I suppose I'd just lift weight restrictions, because all that did was that I spent several minutes swapping items around inventories until it was okay - that's neither fun nor immersive, it's just busywork.

Among PoE players at large, my guess is that nearly everyone would favor the stash or else would go even further and say there should be a check-box to automatically convert items to copper so that the inconvenience of visiting a merchant can be avoided.  Then again, most PoE players are going to miss huge swathes of content and hence aren't likely to have the "too much copper" problem anyway.  So if the only people for whom this is even an issue are the small minority of us who visit these forums and remember other RPGs we have played that used more stringent inventory systems, I'm not sure there's much point in devoting dev time to a solution.  (I do like the idea of expert mode including no stash or a limited stash, though.)   

[qwert_44643]

I to felt that the stash was way overpowered....but then i found the restriction and i use that...i would like to see maybe an option totally disabling the  inventory stash(Maybe keep the abitlity to store quest and alchemy items in it) for those who would want to use that options.

[Valorian]

Stash = being able to conveniently stash away everything you find = good.

 

Being able to transform these items into so much wealth that you could use endurance potions instead of water for your keep's fountain and high level scrolls as toilet paper = awful and heartbreaking. 

 

[Gairnulf]

Among PoE players at large, my guess is that nearly everyone would favor the stash or else would go even further and say there should be a check-box to automatically convert items to copper so that the inconvenience of visiting a merchant can be avoided.  Then again, most PoE players are going to miss huge swathes of content and hence aren't likely to have the "too much copper" problem anyway.  So if the only people for whom this is even an issue are the small minority of us who visit these forums and remember other RPGs we have played that used more stringent inventory systems, I'm not sure there's much point in devoting dev time to a solution.  (I do like the idea of expert mode including no stash or a limited stash, though.)

As I said, if someone complains in the lines of "I have no time to go to the other end of the map", they are just not ready to really optimize. Why do things half way with a stash button or piss-easy combat mechanics? To really optimize their gaming time, they need either a "Win Game" button, leading to instant enjoyment of victory, or to quit the game and go outside.

 

^^^ So unlimited storage is ok later in the game but not from level 1?

Have I said that? No.

 

Just becuase the game still allows you access inventory in civilized areas does not preclude you from having your own rules prohibiting it.

You don't read what I'm writing, that's fine, just don't go posting replies. I already said twice that house rules don't help the situation since items still have no weight and quest items and ingredients go directly to the stash.

 

Why can't you assign your own weights and keep a running total next to your keyboard if it's that important to you?

And why don't you take your lame trolling attempts elsewhere, if the issue I'm pointing out is so unimportant to you? I started this thread for discussion, not to marvel at how dumb responses you can come up with.

 

IIRC the ammo belt that would hold multiple item types from TOB was high enough to make filling it unlikely.

Great, the IE games give you an item in the late game that resembles a PoE feature you have from the get go, and this makes things totally equal. I don't know who you are hoping to convince with this argument.

 

AFAIK you can "drop items" into any container you wish including dead enemies (from regular inventory slots)

Nice, next time I want to drop an item, I'll go to the nearest container the location of which I've memorized. FYI, you can't access dead enemies as containers once you loot everything from them, not that it would have made sense. Edited November 2, 2015 by Gairnulf

[Zenbane]

And why don't you take your lame trolling attempts elsewhere, if the issue I'm pointing out is so unimportant to you? I started this thread for discussion, not to marvel at how dumb responses you can come up with.

Actually, this entire topic existed in another thread and you purposely started a whole new Topic instead of replying in the appropriate location. On top of that, you are now resorting to personal attacks (aka, calling wonderon's responses "dumb").

 

This is pretty typical behavior of a troll, so you might want to reflect on your own actions before labeling others.

 

As for the actual topic, wanderon is right. You should keep a pen n paper handy next to you while you play so that you can impose your own rules. Instead of opening up hostile forum discussions about how amazing you think your self-imposed rules are (and anyone who disagrees is dumb) lol

Edited November 2, 2015 by Zenbane

[wanderon]

 

And why don't you take your lame trolling attempts elsewhere, if the issue I'm pointing out is so unimportant to you? I started this thread for discussion, not to marvel at how dumb responses you can come up with.

Actually, this entire topic existed in another thread and you purposely started a whole new Topic instead of replying in the appropriate location. On top of that, you are now resorting to personal attacks (aka, calling wonderon's responses "dumb").

 

This is pretty typical behavior of a troll, so you might want to reflect on your own actions before labeling others.

 

As for the actual topic, wanderon is right. You should keep a pen n paper handy next to you while you play so that you can impose your own rules. Instead of opening up hostile forum discussions about how amazing you think your self-imposed rules are (and anyone who disagrees is dumb) lol

 

 

What he said...

 

(BTW - discussion does not mean everyone agrees with your ideas about the topic - nor that only those who agree should participate)

[Gairnulf]

There are no personal attacks. I seriously suggested him that he takes his lame trolling elsewhere if he doesn't agree with what I'm proposing, instead of cluttering a serious discussion with inane stuff like "keep paper notes of items' weight next to your keyboard".

 

Not every idea he doesn't like constitutes a personal attack.

 

Unless calling someone's trolling "lame" is a personal attack, while the trolling itself is ok.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Gairnulf

[wanderon]

So the only serious discussion is that which agrees with you? I think not!

 

You see even though I think it is highly unlikely that any of the ideas you propose will ever see the light of day (at least in the "official version" of PoE and it's sequels) I do think it's important to add my own position to the discussion just to make sure no one thinks that everyone (or even a majority) are interested in seriously considering changing the game in this manner - because in my humble opinion - that would suck.

[Infinitron]

Originally, the stash was meant to serve as a "strategic inventory" while the smaller character inventories would be "tactical inventories". You'd have to swap items in and out of your stash at rest spots and prioritize your personal inventory items judiciously.

 

In the end, though, the game ended up not emphasizing item use enough to make that really work, so they just made the stash a regular shared party inventory by default and hoped nobody would care. And what do you know, few people did.

 

From that we can learn that inventory management is probably largely redundant in any RPG of this type that doesn't emphasize frequent use of a wide assortment of inventory items.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Infinitron

[wanderon]

Originally, the stash was meant to serve as a "strategic inventory" while the smaller character inventories would be "tactical inventories". You'd have to swap items in and out of your stash at rest spots and prioritize your personal inventory items judiciously.

 

In the end, though, the game ended up not emphasizing item use enough to make that really work, so they just made the stash a regular shared party inventory by default and hoped nobody would care. And what do you know, few people did.

 

Considering item stacking and the number of slots per character I'm having a hard time seeing why it would be difficult to keep what you needed on hand even if access to the stash was limited to "safe areas" unless the game required extreme item usage (multiple items for every character per battle) - I'm certainly glad that's not how things worked out as I personally keep item usage to a minimum anyway (rarely use any food or potions at all).

[Infinitron]

Considering item stacking and the number of slots per character I'm having a hard time seeing why it would be difficult to keep what you needed on hand 

 

 

Well, as you might know, during the beta, the personal character inventories were half as large. That made lots of people upset.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Infinitron

[wanderon]

 

Considering item stacking and the number of slots per character I'm having a hard time seeing why it would be difficult to keep what you needed on hand 

 

 

Well, as you might know, during the beta, the personal character inventories were half as large. That made lots of people upset.

 

 

I do sort of recall that early in the beta altho I don't recall it being an issue to me but that probably falls back to my playstyle of minimal use of items to begin with. 

[Gairnulf]

Originally, the stash was meant to serve as a "strategic inventory" while the smaller character inventories would be "tactical inventories". You'd have to swap items in and out of your stash at rest spots and prioritize your personal inventory items judiciously.

 

In the end, though, the game ended up not emphasizing item use enough to make that really work, so they just made the stash a regular shared party inventory by default and hoped nobody would care. And what do you know, few people did.

 

From that we can learn that inventory management is probably largely redundant in any RPG of this type that doesn't emphasize frequent use of a wide assortment of inventory items.

The characters even have recorded audio and coded logic to play those voice lines when their inventory is full. Encumbrance was apparently planned but left out.