Resource management; copper pands & per rest abilities

[Valorian]

Resource management is vaguely present in the early game, but it soon becomes unnecessary.

 

The influx of money is absurd; between 500 000 and 1 000 000 copper coins. You can buy everything, craft and enchant everything. But, of course, it's not needed. Dragon meat dish before every encounter? Why not.

 

It removes something I enjoy; the feeling of having just or barely enough currency, I want to think twice before using a potion, scroll or buying an item. I want it to matter how I spend money in this game.

I will never use the vast majority of items found as loot. Please, make me happy to find the 5th "ring of x" by making money matter (ring = money).

 

 

Please,

-No merchant in Twin Elms who buys everything for twice the money compared to everyone else.

 

-Drastically increase prices of level 3+ potions and scrolls (including crafting prices). 5x at least.

 

-Drastically decrease sell values, especially those of fine and better items. The throng of small shields and spears etc. can keep their 5 cp value.

 

-If you're not inclined to "force" this on everyone, include it in expert mode.

 

 

 

Now about per-rest resources. 

There's practically no cost attached to replenishing all per-rest abilities/talents/items; the only cost, from time to time, is loading screens.

 

It's a travesty. Rename them to "per encounter", because that's what they really are, and adjust them accordingly OR do something about it:

 

-Decouple health and resting (Josh mentioned that fatigue mechanics will be changed).

 

-In expert mode, the only way to undo health damage would be drinking standard healing potions; they'd restore health only outside of combat. This would be another money drain.

 

-In expert mode, resting would restore your per-rest resources only. A limited number of times.  Say, after you rest 15 times.. per-rest abilities, talents and items will not recharge any longer. It's brutal, but deciding whether to replenish per-rest resources or not would finally become a thing.

 

 

 

Sure, per encounter abilities would become much more valuable. That's why I also suggest to take another look at some per encounter and passive abilities. Especially if they affect more than a single target and have a decent duration. Damaging, healing or inflicting status effects; I won't mention names and aoe-shame them, but they need to check their aoe privilege. 

 

 

 

[drty]

Cannot recall a RPG allowing to trade obtained goods yet effectively and constantly limiting player's income - a common problem for all such games. I guess, it's not so easy to balance money influx between different playstyles. BTW: I didn't get to the Twin Elms yet, but I don't feel the lack of money even now.

 

Regarding per-rest abilities/items. I think lots of loading screens between your current location and closest shop where you can refuel with camping supplies - is actually a significant stopper which should prevent you from spending them so easily. Moreover, not all people accept the "one fight = one rest" approach. Some have principles. %)

[AndreaColombo]

Personally, I'm on the other end of the spectrum when it comes to resources. I don't like to be limited in what I can afford, and I especially don't want to have to think over what potions or scrolls I can use. I enjoy the most when my party as at its maximum, fully buffed and ready to dispense death. If I had to eke out my potions and scrolls, I would be rather appalled.

 

If money influx was to be restricted in this game, it would be great to make that optional for people like me who eke out cash enough in real life

[Zenbane]

I do enjoy having to scavenge for things like food in a game, but the setting has to be proper. For example, a classic Dungeon Crawler style game is perfect for this (eg, Legend of Grimrock). However, in a standard RPG like PoE I do not believe that this would provide a fun experience. Micromanagement is already hugely prevalent due to the Paused combat requirements. The last thing we need is to take a slow and steady pace for every action leading up to combat. Game advancement would slow to a painful crawl.

 

Besides, any game that implements a Monetary System is doomed to provide unlimited riches. I still remember the original Fallout game, and using a Macro tool that allowed my character to sit at the Gambling table while I slept. i woke up to one wealthy character starting from the early game. Even MMORPG's like Final Fantasy Online cannot prevent this type of behavior. All players end up doing is macroing/pharming areas with loot drops that provide the most income.

 

Where's there's money, there's greed

[mosspit]

Personally, I have not found myself in riches in game to the level described by the OP. Close to end game, I commonly find myself having about 50k in fluid funds (albeit without selling every single piece of unused equipment). More than half a million seems like a hyperbole. When vendor weapons cost around 10k, I think the situation feels about right.

 

Moreover, monetary resource management already exists in the first parts of the game. I find myself figuring out the best quest sequence to complete in order to afford certain equipment pieces when I hit Defiance Bay, such that my builds can come into realization with enough content remaining to utilize them.

[Fenixp]

If you want proper management of per rest resources, do not rest spam. The game actively discourages you from doing so and if you're half competent at it you can finish it by properly managing your resources as opposed to rest spamming, so just don't if you don't like it. And yes, I do feel silly for repeatedly saying "Do not do things you do not wish to do", it always felt quite natural to me.

 

As for financial management, yeah, you are sort of swimming in money for most of the game - now this is not an excuse, but it's pretty much the same in most other RPGs. I genuinely do not know of a satisfactory solution, perhaps save for exchange system implemented in PoE. (Path of Exile. Confusing, eh?)

[Zenbane]

If you want proper management of per rest resources, do not rest spam. The game actively discourages you from doing so and if you're half competent at it you can finish it by properly managing your resources as opposed to rest spamming, so just don't if you don't like it. And yes, I do feel silly for repeatedly saying "Do not do things you do not wish to do", it always felt quite natural to me.

 

As for financial management, yeah, you are sort of swimming in money for most of the game - now this is not an excuse, but it's pretty much the same in most other RPGs. I genuinely do not know of a satisfactory solution, perhaps save for exchange system implemented in PoE. (Path of Exile. Confusing, eh?)

Agreed. PoE is a game that gives you "every choice" and the posts lately seem to stem from some players making choices that work against their own personal preferences. Thus, replying with, "dont do the things you dont wanna do" is perfectly valid

 

The only game I know of that mastered a monetary system is Eve Online. It's notorious for this.

[drty]

The only game I know of that mastered a monetary system is Eve Online. It's notorious for this.

Arguably. What they've actually mastered is a spreadsheet-style marketing. There is also quite a lot of ways to get relatively unlimited money.

[Gairnulf]

I was swimming in cash while I was playing with a full party and clearing out every area. Try playing on PotD with few or no party members and once you are forced to skip side content, you'll end up earning a lot less money.

 

As Josh Sawyer has said a few times, the game is balanced around players who do less than half the side content. If a player milks every item out of every area, it stands to reason he'll end up having insane amounts of money.

 

In my observations, what costs most is armor and enhanced/magical equipment.

 

To be fair though, part of the blame for too much money being available falls on the game's UI being a little too convenient - the infinite inventory and the lack of weight restrictions makes it very tempting for a player to go into vacuum cleaner mode.

 

I guess it's not difficult to come up with solutions to this problem, but as a great game designer once said - I'm not interested in your great ideas as ideas, but in how you image their execution.

 

First, the stronghold. The (sadly underdeveloped/unfinished) stronghold was to be the chief money sink in the game but since it's unfinished, it doesn't present you with enough problems/upgrades to throw money at.

 

It's easy to come up with ideas like some sort of prestigious club which has a regular member's fee, but provides some unique bonuses. Or with ingame offers for "investment" into trade missions or expeditions into Eir Glanfath. These cost development time of course.

 

There is one particular aspect of the game, itself looking like an unfinished part of it too, which is related to the player's money, and that's the various currencies. From a worldbuilding perspective, I'm very happy to see there are different currencies in the game, but I wish they also had some mechanics tied to them. For example, if the player could be able to trade currencies at some loss to himself, or if certain merchants would accept only a certain kind of currency, or if we are particularly masochistic - would sell different items in different currencies.

 

It sounds like a mess, but it may really reduce the problem of having too much money to know what to do with. When a large part of the money you have is suddenly useless to you because it's in a currency you don't need, it's more difficult to feel all-powerful.

 

Having money have weight and limiting the amount of money the player can carry on their person/in the party, would have also been good, and in line with PnP tradition, although breaking with the IE games' model. The large quantities of precious metals could be kept at the stronghold (all the more reason for the player to invest in its protection), with the player and party members only carrying pouches holding a moderate amount of coins. Or what about simulating inflation in Defiance Bay - the more money the player has, the steeper prices become, by some sort of formula maybe.

 

 

There's lots of solutions as I said, but they cost development time which sadly no one is going to put into realizing it. Managing player's treasury is a too low-priority problem, needs much work to implement solutions, it needs adding features/systems which don't currently exist in the game, and on top of it all, many players will feel frustrated by restrictions to their treasury, so it may be counterproductive with regards to making the game more fun.

 

The best we could realistically wish for is for the stronghold events and costs to be rebalanced, or scaled up if the players' treasury reaches a certain threshold.

[Zenbane]

 

The only game I know of that mastered a monetary system is Eve Online. It's notorious for this.

Arguably. What they've actually mastered is a spreadsheet-style marketing. There is also quite a lot of ways to get relatively unlimited money.

 

True. I suppose the point of this discussion, and the reference to EO, isn't just the general notion of "unlimited money," but the outcome of doing so. in PoE, as it is in other games with a similar RPG/Money system, the unlimited money resource provides such a distinct advantage that items that should be a delicacy (eg, dragon dishes) are as common as heal potion. Games like EO greatly mitigate the impact of utilizing your unlimited money resource.

[Valorian]

 Moreover, not all people accept the "one fight = one rest" approach. Some have principles. %)

 

Indeed, principles are important. Plot twist, I follow some self-imposed rules and have a set number of rests and reloads I'm allowed to use on a playthrough (If I rest with a used per-rest ability, talent or item that's -1 rest) to increase challenge. I keep track and write it down.

However, after completing the game for the 2nd time yesterday, I asked myself why am I self-imposing these rules.

 

Does it actually solve the problem? If having an absurd amount of valuable items (money) in my stash displeases me, should I just not pick up loot? Is the player supposed to fix a broken economy or broken systems on the fly? Is this enjoyable?

I find this line of reasoning, just don't use it if you don't like it, as suggested by some people, a non sequitur. The question is not whether I like it or not, it's about offering the player an all-around challenging experience without the need to self-impose arbitrary rules in advance or during the game.

 

Obsidian developed the game and set monster stats, for instance. They could also limit per-rest resources in a meaningful way, as an option. If "just don't use it/don't do it if you don't like it" was the design lodestar we'd never have modes such as trial of iron and we'd never have balance changes.

 

 

 

 (albeit without selling every single piece of unused equipment). More than half a million seems like a hyperbole.

 

 

 

I know, it is almost shocking. It's true though. I'll also reveal something you're perhaps unaware of, but you actually need to sell items from your stash to get in the 500 000 range. No, I have not slaughtered Dyrwood's settlements and Twin Elms.

[mosspit]

 

(albeit without selling every single piece of unused equipment). More than half a million seems like a hyperbole.

 

I know, it is almost shocking. It's true though. I'll also reveal something you're perhaps unaware of, but you actually need to sell items from your stash to get in the 500 000 range. No, I have not slaughtered Dyrwood's settlements and Twin Elms.

 

Well, I loaded up an old save and tried selling all non-uniques. I think I managed to get something like 100k. So yeah, I still can't reach half a million.

 

How about not selling every piece of equipment then? Cause the end result is the same, having less fluid monies. It is either you impose restriction yourself or the game does it for you.

Edited October 31, 2015 by mosspit

[Valorian]

 

Well, I loaded up an old save and tried selling all non-uniques. I think I managed to get something like 100k. So yeah, I still can't reach half a million.

 

How about not selling every piece of equipment then? Cause the end result is the same, having less fluid monies. It is either you impose restriction yourself or the game does it for you.

 

 

I haven't sold a single unique item and kept a lot of exceptional and superb ones. In fact I have only sold items from the weapons and armor categories. I had potion splurges, scroll splurges, keep splurges, crafting and enchanting splurges (though I randomly selected only one companion to travel with me so there wasn't that much to enchant) and bought some items just to test them. Ended the game with around 250 000.

I could've seen 500 000 next to "currency" easily.

 

 

Yes, it's eitheir I impose restrictions myself or the game does it for me. I can agree with this observation.

[Infinitron]

Josh seems to have wanted to make the game's money supply tighter at first, but after the Durability/Crafting affair, seems to have become convinced that most players just don't care: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64048-update-58-crafting-with-tim-cain/?p=1348405

 

As for endgame wealth abundance, we will continue to create places for you to use wealth in the economy: unique items, the stronghold, optional quest/dialogue gates, etc.  Ultimately, if those options go unused, I'll have to trust that the majority of players won't be significantly troubled by an excess of wealth in the late game.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Infinitron

[drty]

Indeed, principles are important. Plot twist, I follow some self-imposed rules and have a set number of rests and reloads I'm allowed to use on a playthrough (If I rest with a used per-rest ability, talent or item that's -1 rest) to increase challenge. I keep track and write it down.

However, after completing the game for the 2nd time yesterday, I asked myself why am I self-imposing these rules.

 

Does it actually solve the problem? If having an absurd amount of valuable items (money) in my stash displeases me, should I just not pick up loot? Is the player supposed to fix a broken economy or broken systems on the fly? Is this enjoyable?

I find this line of reasoning, just don't use it if you don't like it, as suggested by some people, a non sequitur. The question is not whether I like it or not, it's about offering the player an all-around challenging experience without the need to self-impose arbitrary rules in advance or during the game.

 

Obsidian developed the game and set monster stats, for instance. They could also limit per-rest resources in a meaningful way, as an option. If "just don't use it/don't do it if you don't like it" was the design lodestar we'd never have modes such as trial of iron and we'd never have balance changes.

 

Basically, I agree with you. I would also be glad if game will provide such number of customization options. As I've already said, I can't remember the roleplaying game where the currency resource does actually matter from the start till the end (except perhaps the Dark Souls series, which has very specific type of currency). So, I expect it will be quite a challenging task to accurately balance all this stuff. But maybe someone will take this challenge at last. %)

[Fenixp]

It's about offering the player an all-around challenging experience without the need to self-impose arbitrary rules in advance or during the game.

Resting limitations are not a self-imposed, arbitrary rule - the game discourages player from traveling back into towns and rest spamming by making it inconvenient, which encourages player to complete as many encounters as possible while resting as little as possible. Yes, lack of convenience is also a form of restriction.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Fenixp

[Gairnulf]

I was using the same argument for some time, prior to the game's release. The game designer can never win against a player who has decided to use cheesy tactics.

 

On the other hand, as long as the player finds fun playing, no tactic should be prohibited. That's the reason I dislike the decision that an area can't be left while in combat, though I'm not sure if this wasn't caused bu problems with getting unity to save the state of an area between exit/re-entry. I think this was the reason, not a design decision.

[Valorian]

 

Josh seems to have wanted to make the game's money supply tighter at first, but after the Durability/Crafting affair, seems to have become convinced that most players just don't care: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64048-update-58-crafting-with-tim-cain/?p=1348405

 

As for endgame wealth abundance, we will continue to create places for you to use wealth in the economy: unique items, the stronghold, optional quest/dialogue gates, etc.  Ultimately, if those options go unused, I'll have to trust that the majority of players won't be significantly troubled by an excess of wealth in the late game.

 

 

The majority of players aren't significantly (or at all) troubled by an excess of wealth just like they wouldn't be troubled by an insta-kill per-encounter ability as long as it's them who get to use it. That was never in question. 

 

It would nicely fit in "expert mode" though.

 

 

 

It's about offering the player an all-around challenging experience without the need to self-impose arbitrary rules in advance or during the game.

Resting limitations are not a self-imposed, arbitrary rule - the game discourages player from traveling back into towns and rest spamming by making it inconvenient, which encourages player to complete as many encounters as possible while resting as little as possible. Yes, lack of convenience is also a form of restriction.

 

 

 

Wrong thread. The title isn't "Resource management: free time in real life". It's about in-game resource management.

 

That you'll have more or less time to read this forum by avoiding or not avoiding loading screens in PoE is irrelevant as it doesn't affect the game's difficulty or the lack of challenge when it comes to managing your per-rest resources. 

[Fenixp]

Wrong thread. The title isn't "Resource management: free time in real life". It's about in-game resource management.

 

That you'll have more or less time to read this forum by avoiding or not avoiding loading screens in PoE is irrelevant as it doesn't affect the game's difficulty or the lack of challenge when it comes to managing your per-rest resources.

And that's cute, but it doesn't change the fact that it's indeed neither an arbitrary nor a self-imposed rule. The game very strongly suggests you how does it want to be played which removes the 'Arbitrary' part and adds significant amount of downtime during the actual gameplay to impose the rule on the player by making the game less enjoyable while abusing it. Infinity Engine games had arbitrary and self-imposed rest limitations, in other words, there weren't any. Pillars of Eternity lays out the rules in front of you very plainly, but then adds "If you screw up, you won't lose." The only arbitrary and self-imposed thing you'll ever need to do is to reload instead of returning to town to resupply, which doesn't really make any sense as there's (almost) never a reason why should your party not be able to leave an area and return back later. Remember, it's roleplaying as well as a game.

[Valorian]

There's quite a difference between "challenging" a player's free time and challenging a player's strategic thinking ability. If their intention was to challenge the player's free time, why have they implemented the stash? They even made it possible to rest from anywhere once you reach the keep area to prevent "making the game less enjoyable" for those who wish to "abuse" extra free stats.

[Valorian]

Joshua Eric Sawyer, please.

 

At least convert all items with per-rest abilities to limited charges. If, for instance, a summoning figurine or ring of domination has only a couple of charges I'd have to be careful when to use it. Strategic planning right there! Every single duplicate item with charges, as long as you need the ability, would become precious.

 

Also, there's reeeally no reason to have a shop in Twin Elms where you can sell everything for twice the profit, given that you acknowledged the problem of having an excess of wealth in the late game. This would be an excellent start.

 

Thanks Josh.