Most overpowered builds post patch 2.02

[brindle88]

 

Just because you created a Bullet Point list of things someone may do while combat is paused, doesn't mean you proved something about this imaginary "cost base analysis" (which doesn't even make sense in this context).

 

Also, typing a lot of words doesn't mean you're winning an argument. Did they not teach that at the University? Also, I have 2 degrees and 2 certifications in Technology, specializing in Software Development and Infrastructure Security. Just fyi since you decided to bring your finance academic resume in to the conversation.

You can't actually do all those bullet points in one pause of combat. It's more like multiple pauses of combat. Let's leave petty arguing out of this. No ones interested. A strat was raised and I simply said there is a significant cost in doing that. For your barb to do all that there is a cost.

I couldn't care less about winning an argument grow up man

And I no an even better strategy then that for your barb-

 

1. Your cipher amplify waving

2. Your druid relentless storming

3. Your barbarian could kill everything with a tooth pick if it wanted

[Zenbane]

If you could care less about winning an argument, why would you bring up your Finance degree? Perhaps you are the one that has some growing up to do.

 

Neither your bullet points nor your terrible attempt to use Finance theories have anything to do with Sking's Barb strategy post. You are purposely describing things in an over complicated way in order to act like you disproved Barbarian efficiency.

 

Your need to win the argument and your failed attempts to disqualify the Barbarian class are transparent.

[brindle88]

If you could care less about winning an argument, why would you bring up your Finance degree? Perhaps you are the one that has some growing up to do.

 

Neither your bullet points nor your terrible attempt to use Finance theories have anything to do with Sking's Barb strategy post. You are purposely describing things in an over complicated way in order to act like you disproved Barbarian efficiency.

 

Your need to win the argument and your failed attempts to disqualify the Barbarian class are transparent.

Are you saying that my strategy of my cipher waving then the druid storming then my barb killing everything won't work?

 

Man my barb would kick arse if this happened, don't knock the barb

[Gairnulf]

QA Approved Barb Strat,

 

Give your Barb a stick, stack his Might past 30, let him Graze (or just spam Scrolls of Valor), and put a Shield/Support Pally in front of him. Don't drop his Intel and you'll sweep encounters. Not as fast as a DPS Rogue but so much less effort and risk.

What this story is missing is that your barbarian will die in pretty much every battle until he can stack his might anywhere around 30. Due to his extremely low base Deflection.

 

Also, how many points to Perception, to compensate for his handicapped Accuracy, does this strategy suggest?

Edited November 5, 2015 by Gairnulf

[Gairnulf]

I'll just repeat myself a bit;

 

Pretty silly for anyone to think Barbs are a bad class. A bit limited in what they do, sure, but they're amazing at what they do, i.e. mow down packs of trash at melee range.

Prove it. Post your Barbarian's build. I want to try it in my game.

 

Of course, if folks think they're bad because they're trying to compare them to wizards, of course they are. Everything is lackluster compared to a wizard, and the other 2 casters + Cipher change are on the same curve.

No, I'd rather compare them to a Fighter or Rogue, if that's ok. A bit funny there should be "classes we shouldn't compare the Barbarian to". It already tells me something about this class

 

It's kinda funny how that strength pretty much entirely comes from Carnage as well. It's really only class abilites that create any meaningful distinction between classes in this game, due to everyone having same general talent pools, stat choices, gear selection, and stat growth.

You are forgetting the Accuracy/Deflection/Hit points distinction. Are you playing on Normal by any chance?

 

I'm really confused on how folks think it's some great task to crit things on PotD. Act 1?

This question is easliy answered by... playing the game. And it's not "a great task". Just lots of RNG. Your barbarian has an Accuracy value of around 35. A shade has a Deflection value of around 70 on PotD. With -35 base, you have to roll more than 50 to score a graze, and more than 85 to score a hit. Meanwhile, the Shade will cause Dazed on you with every hit, which incurs:

–2 Intellect

–2 Perception

–2 Dexterity

–10 Accuracy

x0.85 Attack Speed (independent of the hit to attack speed caused by the DEX reduction)

 

Good luck hitting anything now.

 

I say again post your builds, not unbacked claims.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Gairnulf

[brindle88]

 

I'll just repeat myself a bit; Pretty silly for anyone to think Barbs are a bad class. A bit limited in what they do, sure, but they're amazing at what they do, i.e. mow down packs of trash at melee range.

Prove it. Post your Barbarian's build. I want to try it in my game. 

Of course, if folks think they're bad because they're trying to compare them to wizards, of course they are. Everything is lackluster compared to a wizard, and the other 2 casters + Cipher change are on the same curve.

No, I'd rather compare them to a Fighter or Rogue, if that's ok. A bit funny there should be "classes we shouldn't compare the Barbarian to". It already tells me something about this class  

It's kinda funny how that strength pretty much entirely comes from Carnage as well. It's really only class abilites that create any meaningful distinction between classes in this game, due to everyone having same general talent pools, stat choices, gear selection, and stat growth.

You are forgetting the Accuracy/Deflection/Hit points distinction. Are you playing on Normal by any chance? 

I'm really confused on how folks think it's some great task to crit things on PotD. Act 1?

This question is easliy answered by... playing the game. And it's not "a great task". Just lots of RNG. Your barbarian has an Accuracy value of around 35. A shade has a Deflection value of around 70 on PotD. With -35 base, you have to roll more than 50 to score a graze, and more than 85 to score a hit. Meanwhile, the Shade will cause Dazed on you with every hit, which incurs:–2 Intellect–2 Perception–2 Dexterity–10 Accuracyx0.85 Attack Speed (independent of the hit to attack speed caused by the DEX reduction)Good luck hitting anything now.I say again post your builds, not unbacked claims.

One thing I have noticed about this whole barbarian fiasco is that all the people who are saying barbarians are strong are saying that they require buffs from either casters, scrolls, potions ect....

 

If casters have to cast spells to buff the barb, if someone needs to activate a scroll to buff the barb and if the barb needs to drink a potion then these are all actions where those caster could be casting eg petrify, someone else could be attacking an enemy and if the class was a fighter or a rogue he Definatley would not need to be drinking a potion.

 

Not only is the barbarian weak, he is a burden to the entire party

[Gairnulf]

I guess when it's in a party much comes down to play style and synergy between classes. Which is good BTW, better to have classes complementing each other than not.

 

But if we are comparing raw power in isolated conditions, the Barbarian can't handle encounters that other classes easily can.

[brindle88]

I guess when it's in a party much comes down to play style and synergy between classes. Which is good BTW, better to have classes complementing each other than not.

 

But if we are comparing raw power in isolated conditions, the Barbarian can't handle encounters that other classes easily can.

Of course. I use synergies and complement other classes all the time. I love it. I love the game.

 

But

 

The whole focus of the barbarian synergy is to position it in frontline combat with inferior deflection and accuracy and attempt to either land afflictions with crits via carnage (that any caster can do from a distance) or land "secondary " damage that is applied with both lower accuracy (-10) and lower damage that damage reduction most of the time negate, except on only the most easy of enemies eg xantrips, weak humans ect....

 

I just don't get it

[brindle88]

and im not the only one who doesn't get it

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/80415-barbarian-how-does-it-deal-damage/

[Teioh_White]

Alright, this has to be trolling, you're missing the point so widely and reasoning so poorly, it can't be serious. We're talking about 35 acc? So we're basing how good a class is on what classes do on level 3 in the Eothas Temple? A very brief time of the game? When clearly my entire post was about Act 3+? As I mentioned it didn't apply in Act 1? And Act 2 is a sidequest fest to gear and level everyone up? (It'd be 41 acc, and you're likely getting another +10 from a flank, by the way, even with base Perception. 31 on the Carnage.)

 

And everyone struggles with that on level 3. Figher? +5 acc and 7% graze-> isn't a massive game changer, especially considering what an extremely brief portion of the game this is. And just to re-iterate how silly this comment is, attempting to argue against the ability to easily activate on-crit properties by bringing up a portion of the game where there are no on-crit weapons is just...it's not good.

 

What Accuarcy/Hitpoint/Deflection distinction? You mean the +-10 max at the start? It's not a large deal, and matters less and less as the game goes on. As I said, meaningful distinction; by level 12, if no one's using class talents and has same gear/stat spread/talent choice, we'd barely notice the difference with how much acc we pile on through gear/growth/buffs/debuffs as the game goes on.

 

Compare Barb to Fighter and Rogue? (These classes also suck compared to the casters, by the way, and yes, it's a problem we can't compare the martial classes to the casters....though I don't think you grasped it's not just Barbs.) Alright, we'll run down what those classes do compared to a Barb. We'll say the Barb is 10 Might, 10 Con, 18 Dex, 18 Per, 17 Int, 3 Res (If wanting to use Barb as a tank, obviously trade More Per/some Int for Res, but so would the other classes to a lesser degree if you wanted to use them for that).

 

Rogue is  +1.2 damage mod, +13 acc, +10% crit, and well say a +0.3 mod from might due to not needing Int. That's pretty much the entirety of worthwhile traits being a Rogue brings to the table. Also has 50% less HP, for what it's worth. (The rest of the class talents are negligible.) Oh, and rogues? To get that that 1.0 mod? Need two debuffs on the mob, so if talking Rogue, we're talking debuffing the mob. (which is smart, everyone should do it every fight).

 

What's a Fighter doing over a Barb? +0.25 Mod, +13% Speed, +10 Deflection, and again, +0.3mod from might. Also 25% less health. The rest of fighter's abilites are either useless per rests, negligible single target per encounters, worthless per encounter buffs, stances with penalties, and niche passives. Figther really gets the short end of the stick, and I've no clue how anyone thinks it has something over another class.

 

What's a Barb getting in exchange for not having those advantages? 20 sec of +0.12 mod +20% speed per enc, +2 DR, and of course, a 2.25m Aoe attacks at -0.35mod damage. Also has a self only Lay on Hands and a +0.2 mod if using as a tank, and a somewhat sketchy 13% speed boost talent we'll just ignore, as it's inconsistently there. (but not just rendered useless, like Fighters Confidant aim, for what it's worth).

 

It seems Barbs doing just fine by that standard, but lets just try some numbers for fun to be sure. We'll just look at the damage output, to bias it a bit against the utility a Barb brings to a fight compared to a Fighter and Rogue (which is hard to weight precisely). Let's use some of the stronger damage weapon set in the game, Dual Sabers, and do it on level 12, no Durgon Steel (in-game wise, this is about the point all the bounties are done and about 2/3rd through Act 3, with entire Endless Paths and WM to go).

 

And since it's damage we care about, we'll toss in Merciless Hand (or just assuming later Durgon Steel), so a rogue will settle at an average about 4.0 mod(1.0(base)+0.2(Reckless)+0.2(Savage)+1.0(Death)+0.3(Might)+0.85(crits)+0.45(Superb), which on 80 deflection mobs ends up about 96 average damage with 2xlash before DR(x1.25) a swing.

 

And as I mentioned, really, most mobs are more in the 57-73 Deflection range, so will really be higher than that due to more crits.(Level 12 Rogue acc would be about 136= 63(base)+6(focus)+12(weapon)+8(Reckless)+10(Per)+5(a blessing)+30(mob needs two debuffs for Sneak attack) -5(Savage). So, about 60% crit rate, and converting an additional 8% with rogue talent.

 

A fighter? It ends up at a 128 Acc under Sneak attack conditions (which you have to include if talking Rogue), so crits coming 50% of the time, with 50% hits, giving an average final mod of 3.0, so counting the speed boost about 81 a swing pre DR (x1.41)

 

A Barbarian? Main hit under Death Blow conditions has 123 Acc, so only 40% crits. Post crit average mod is only 2.3, so 55 damage pre DR(x.1.25) Looks a lot worse, right? But that's where Carnage comes in, giving AoE 118 acc attacks, losing about .5 mod between carnage penalty and less crits (30%), so 1.8 mod. So 43 damage, pre DR(x1.25). Rogue is besting fighter's damage comfortably, so we'll compare it to that.

 

One target, clearly Barb is blown away, which it should, as single target melee range damage is rogues Niche. Lets move into Barb's niche, and let the AoE work, say two extra targets. Now the mobs need a DR of 18 for the Rogue to break even in  damage. (Which is a lot less mobs than you'd think) Add a 4th mob? 23 DR, which pretty much just makes Barb bad for clearing a room for of Animats.

 

So...Barb does damage just fine, and for most classes, the only thing making it any squisher is just minus 10 Deflection (Of course, it still has at least a 25% health advantage over of all but the monk). And these numbers just favor Barb more the higher you push the acc and mod. And I was conservative here, this isn't including RNG hands of accuarcy, ranger stuns, food or inn bonuses, priest buffs, potion use, rage, teamates with acc weapons, etc. And this is entirely ignoring that all those mobs are also getting interrupted to slow damage, and if using a stun build, likely getting stunned. Which is very, very easy to do. (Yes, I play on PotD. By act 3, most mobs deflection is debuffed into the 10-30 range at best).

 

I don't see anything wrong with Barb compared to the non-casters, unless your idea of the game comes from solo Act 1 fun times.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Teioh_White

[Livegood118]

The easiest way to visualise it for me is that the Barb's DPS increases by a factor of the number of enemies in range.

 

Let's say there are 10 enemies with 100 Deflection and the Barb has 100 Accuracy (25 Base + 39 from levels + 6 from Per + 12 from Weapon + 9 from Bracers + 6 from Weapon Focus = 97) and assuming there's no hits to crits or grazes to hits (which there probably would be in reality).

 

After Might and all modifiers let's assume the Barb does something like 28-49 damage per hit and that the Barb can attack once every 1.5 secs (which is very feasible and probably slower than they'd be attacking with a fully optimised build).

 

Got Vengeful defeat? If your Barbarian dies it's an extra attack against every single enemy in range with Carnage applying to every single hit. Got second chance? Do that when you die again. Got Heart of Fury? That's another Full attack against every enemy in range. 

 

Each full attack, which could conceivable happen 6-7 times based on how surrounded you are, will do roughly the same amount of damage above (though take in to account DR) – with more if it's something with a modifier like Heart of Fury or Barbaric Blow.

 

Even if a Barbarian dies immediately after being thrown in to a large group of mobs they'll probably do more damage than a Rogue, Fighter, Paladin or Monk will be able to contribute in an entire fight where accuracy=deflection, never mind where you've got your enemies CCd and the Barb will be even more effective. Give the Barb something like the Grey Sleeper that procs paralyse on 10% of hits and crits so that he/she gives everybody aids as well.

 

The effects get better and better with more enemies on the field.

 

I promise I will not post about the Barbarian anymore – Teioh_White has expressed it much better than I have  

Edited November 5, 2015 by Livegood118

[brindle88]

Wow. I got a headache trying to read that

[brindle88]

Anyway hopefully the barbarian rant is behind us now. There was issues raised there by both sides that may help people who read this thread.

 

One class I'm still torn on is the ranger.

 

If you go to youtube there is a video on there that's shows the difference between an arquebus being fired by a character with 10 dexterity and another character with 19 dexterity. The character with 19 dexterity got 4 shots off compared to 3 shots with the character with 10 dexterity.

 

My typical POTD play through will generally have 2 melee classes and 4 spell casters. The spell casters all have 19 dexterity and I give them firearms. The combined firepower of those four casters using firearms (usually a wizard, preist, druid, cipher) is so great that I litteraly don't need a specialised ranged class like the ranger as I can clear almost all encounters on POTD with this tactic, most of the time not even needing to cast spells.

 

They are basically as powerful as the BG equivalent of ranged fighter/ Mages.

 

To me this created two major affects:

 

- rangers are not necessary

- four classes with firearms and high dexterity basically breaks the game, even classes that aren't optimised for ranged combat.

 

I have built a ranger and used stormcaller with the new twin arrows and stunning talents, this is good..................but not quite as good as a wizard, preist, cipher, druid using a firearm whilst still having access to there full arsenal of spells? Especially when you get high level spells!

 

In terms of raw power, rangers IMO are not needed

Edited November 5, 2015 by brindle88

[Zenbane]

The Barbarian rant is "behind us" ? lol, the Barbarian rant has been the most prevalent topic in this silly thread. I saw how you stated the Knockdown originally sucked:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82975-a-closer-analysis-on-class-balance-and-the-203-patch/?p=1746537

 

"Knockdown sucked anyway, int is a dump stat for fighters so it's duration made it. Not worth using."

 

So at this point I'm convinced that you don't even play PoE

 

 

Alright, this has to be trolling, you're missing the point so widely and reasoning so poorly, it can't be serious. We're talking about 35 acc? So we're basing how good a class is on what classes do on level 3 in the Eothas Temple? A very brief time of the game? When clearly my entire post was about Act 3+? As I mentioned it didn't apply in Act 1? And Act 2 is a sidequest fest to gear and level everyone up? (It'd be 41 acc, and you're likely getting another +10 from a flank, by the way, even with base Perception. 31 on the Carnage.)

 

Exactly! brindle doesn't really know what he's talking about, and making terrible points about non-existent scenarios. Your post was quite excellent, but notice brindle's response was, "Wow. I got a headache trying to read that"

 

Proof that his brain literally reject smarts lol

 

Anywho, I'll go sit back and watch brindle continue to mutilate his own thread. Which, by the way, should be renamed, "Post something and I'll say anything to disagree"

Edited November 5, 2015 by Zenbane

[aweigh0101]

[ranger stuffs]

yep you're 100% correct. rangers are nice; they are without a shadow of a doubt the best class in dealing maximum DPS with ranged weapons. you can kit a ranger with 19 dex a speed-enchanted pistol (no arquebus have it) or speed-arbalest or one of the op magical warbos, pick swift aim, pick gunner talent, have kana massage the ranger's shoulders with his reload phrase non-stop, and simply put he will fire 1.5x times, sometimes even 2x times the rate-of-fire of any other unit specced with the same gear/talents.

and they have a pet that you can use to cheese the mobs and kite them or send it into a room full of mobs and have it aggro them so they waste their opening gambit of spells on it then it dies and the ranger sheds a tear, along with 10 pts of ACC.

so... the question is: do you need a unit in ur party that can fire 3 pistol shots in the time it takes your non-specced other unit to fire 1.5 shots with his pistol? do you want to believe in the fantasy of pet-tanking, or accept the reality that pets are useless as they die immediately on potd and make the ranger useless when they do die? i accepted that reality lol i used to use sagani a lot mostly to cheese mobs with the pet and general shenanigas. it's very useful to stealth the pet and kite enemies back to your phalanx unit waiting at the ready in the choke point, eder and pc blocking the door. the pet makes a fantastic sacrifice to galawain as it dies right in front of the chokepoint, while eder and pc hit the first enemy mobs with reach/ranged weapons. 

other than that, yep. tl:dr rangers are not bad, are even actually good class, but are 100% unnecesary in any optimized party. guess i could've just typed that one sentence heh

footnote: poe rangers are in desperate need of some spell-like abilities or straight up nature spells, like all other rangers in crpgs in history since forever. even a basic per-rest entangle in the beginning, then later levels a per-rest barkskin spell from the druid spell list, or maybe the druid spell beetle shell. you get the picture. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by aweigh0101

[Elric Galad]

I really don't know how you guys use pet in PotD. Mine is a wolf (so no special defense but resilient companion) and dies not very often unless used for suicide mission (good utility with infinite health).

 

My hypothesis is that pet has nice synergy with paladin : endurance aura and herald shield boosts passively pet resistance. Lay on hand (and pain block by the way) may get him out of trouble.

 

A bit of positionning and pet will be a nice offtank which can deal about 40-70 damages per attack. Yes, it has an opportunity cost, but I think it worthes it.

[Teioh_White]

Yeah, I agree with pets not dying all that often for me in PotD. If the fox is dropping, it's normally towards the end. Though I do always use 3 melee's up front with it, so it's rarely being swarmed. The only times it goes down for a long period of time is if I failed to micro and the AI decided to position it so the pet is tanking most the mobs, or during the longer, harder fights. Pet also makes a great target for Pld's once a battle Revive, as it doesn't matter how often it dies, since infinite health.

 

It does do good damage, but I am curious exactly how much, just if we wanted to compare raw dps. Unbuffed/linked level 14 fox has 97 Acc, and I'd assume it's 'weapon' is a slow one, and has 15 dex for a decent +15% speed. I guess the big question to test is if the Companions damage comes from a high base damage, or a high mod. If high base, makes the talents boosting pet damage very important, and group mod buffs like Blessing and Devotion get increased value. The opposite is true if it's just a high natural mod.

 

I do really like rangers though, for giving that extra body up front while still able to quickly choose targets if needed. And the stun they give is great, especially later with 4 arrows an attack with Twinned, as it's a real stun, not a weapon stun. Meaning it'll give the team +30 acc on the target, so essentially +40 for the pet. And Stormcaller can proc more stuns on top of that to really make the ranger great for 'buffing' the party and being the spotter for the team.

[Zenbane]

I really don't know how you guys use pet in PotD. Mine is a wolf (so no special defense but resilient companion) and dies not very often unless used for suicide mission (good utility with infinite health).

 

My hypothesis is that pet has nice synergy with paladin : endurance aura and herald shield boosts passively pet resistance. Lay on hand (and pain block by the way) may get him out of trouble.

 

A bit of positionning and pet will be a nice offtank which can deal about 40-70 damages per attack. Yes, it has an opportunity cost, but I think it worthes it.

I actually love pets. When I beat Neverwinter Nights, I used a Hawk as a Pet for the constant chance to Disarm!

 

In a future playthrough of PoE, I hope to rebuild my dual-wielding ranger/rogue (from NWN) with animal affinity. I avoided it up to this point after reading all the posts around here referring to the less-than-optimal implementation of Pets. Hopefully a future patch will remedy that.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Zenbane

[Cantousent]

I'm on my phone, so I can't read everything just now, however, I don't know why we would limit ourselves by denying something so ubiquitous as lots, scrolls, and food in the game. Sure, a club beata a pistol without bullets. If someone has already observed this oddity in limitation, please accept this post a supportive.

[Gairnulf]

Of course. I use synergies and complement other classes all the time. I love it. I love the game.

 

But

 

The whole focus of the barbarian synergy is to position it in frontline combat with inferior deflection and accuracy and attempt to either land afflictions with crits via carnage (that any caster can do from a distance) or land "secondary " damage that is applied with both lower accuracy (-10) and lower damage that damage reduction most of the time negate, except on only the most easy of enemies eg xantrips, weak humans ect....

 

I just don't get it

  

I don't see anything wrong with Barb compared to the non-casters, unless your idea of the game comes from solo Act 1 fun times.

As a rule, I don't troll. I don't have time for that. I've got a lot of objections to your post, but as I said, instead of hypothesizing, let's just play the game and see which class is better.

 

I guess we could agree (or I could agree) that the Barbarian starts out handicapped, but due to the incremental improvements in Deflection and Accuracy, there is a threshold around level 10 where he will dish out a good amount of damage and will have some survivability comparable to that of the rest of the party.

 

Yet still, for his AoE effect to be significantly better than what an AoE spell might give you, you'd really have to reach high levels of Might and accuracy. So, where is the news here? Every class is a killer when you get your character to level 10 and above, relative to the usual enemies' levels.

 

So, the Barbarian is strong when everyone else is strong, and in the early game it's comparatively weaker. If that qualifies the class for "good enough" for you, fine by me. I just don't consider it a good class.

 

Regarding solo, I don't think there is hope for the Barbarian passing Act I on PotD. If anyone succeeds, let me know. I challenge you to try.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Gairnulf

[Teioh_White]

So..you don't want to compare Barb to casters, so you hold it against them they need to stack stats to hold up to caster AoE? Sounds right to me.

 

Every class is better with gear? No one's arguing otherwise; what I'm (as one facet) arguing (with numbers!) is that Barbarian scales better with optimization. New argument is that that doesn't matter, because everyone is good enough at 10+ to steam roll enemies; it doesn't matter if someone steam rolls more? Is that what we're going with now, despite just trying to bring up Casters?

 

So, you entire reason for not thinking Barb is good, is because it underwhelms in Act 1? Is that essentially the argument we're going with here? I mean, if the discussion is "what classes are best in Act 1" that's a different discussion than what we're having, but lets run through that one.

 

Barbs are weak there. So are fighters (weak all the time). Monks not that great either. Rangers rock, Rogues rock, (2.15 mod to everyone's 1.45 mod is huge in Act 1). Pld's are rock solid as well. Chanter's are extremely powerful Spectre spammers. Wizards are still amazing, Priests and Druids aren't as strong relatively. Ciphers still good, either with debuffs or trademark cheese.

 

And that's about it for discussions on Act 1, as it's just a brief (but entertaining; my favorite portion) of the game. But at the portions of the game we spend the most time in, Barbs are just fine compared to all the non casters. That's significantly more useful to me than being good at the briefest portion of the game.

 

And as an aside, I don't know what you mean by hypo's v playing the game; I've played close to a dozen times through on PotD. But that's useless to mention; there's no room for discussion there, so instead we talk very real numbers that make up those playthroughs, to explain to others why things work the way they do.  Unless you mean you want someone  to make a Let's Play, or nothing can change anyone's opinion. Which would be...well, amusing, at the least.

[Gairnulf]

All your questions in your last post are answered in my previous posts. I don't want to go in circles repeating the same things.

 

You are misrepresenting my argument and arguing against things I've never claimed.

[Teioh_White]

They're really not covered at all, the questions are there because the arguments are so horribly flawed, I'm honestly not sure if that's what your proposing, or if you just worded it terrible. And it's as direct response as it can be for the argument to have it's support, but that's okay. A forums not here for folks to try to prove the other wrong. They're here to foster debate so others folks reading can gain an understanding of a subject.

 

And that's been accomplished, and no one wanting to figure out what class to play or how they stack up with one another should think Barb is somehow less than it's fellow second class citizens.

[Gairnulf]

Can you please cite what your argument is then?

[brindle88]

Can you please cite what your argument is then?

Mate the more we reply back to them the more they crap on. Enough has been posted on here for people to read.

 

They no barbs are inferior to fighters and rogues, everyone nows. They are just arguing for the sake of arguing and it's getting pathetic. People will be able to tell that by reading there posts.