Is there a reason Boots of Evasion exist?

[LaSpeakeasi]

 

Let's see ... a rogue with a +1 mechanics background would only need to reach a true value of 12. You can get a +2 resting bonus, so that's a true value of 10. So that's ... 55 skill points, right? You have that many by 10th level, with 5 points to spare.

You need 15 to get through WM.

[gkathellar]

 

 

Let's see ... a rogue with a +1 mechanics background would only need to reach a true value of 12. You can get a +2 resting bonus, so that's a true value of 10. So that's ... 55 skill points, right? You have that many by 10th level, with 5 points to spare.

You need 15 to get through WM.

 

Rogues start with +2. Background of +1. Resting bonus of +2. 10 points. 15.

 

I'm not trying to make any kind of point about this, but I'm pretty sure I've got basic arithmetic down.

[wanderon]

 

 

 

Let's see ... a rogue with a +1 mechanics background would only need to reach a true value of 12. You can get a +2 resting bonus, so that's a true value of 10. So that's ... 55 skill points, right? You have that many by 10th level, with 5 points to spare.

You need 15 to get through WM.

 

Rogues start with +2. Background of +1. Resting bonus of +2. 10 points. 15.

 

I'm not trying to make any kind of point about this, but I'm pretty sure I've got basic arithmetic down.

 

 

Well I'm OK with a game design where a few items are unavailable unless you meet certain levels of competence in something even if it's quite difficult to attain and is unlikely to be met by a majority of people - especially a game where you're free to make "throw away" companions any way you wish at pretty much any time (with a trip to an Inn) and enough cash to purchase them. 

[LaSpeakeasi]

 

 

 

Let's see ... a rogue with a +1 mechanics background would only need to reach a true value of 12. You can get a +2 resting bonus, so that's a true value of 10. So that's ... 55 skill points, right? You have that many by 10th level, with 5 points to spare.

You need 15 to get through WM.

 

Rogues start with +2. Background of +1. Resting bonus of +2. 10 points. 15.

 

I'm not trying to make any kind of point about this, but I'm pretty sure I've got basic arithmetic down.

 

Level 11.

[LaSpeakeasi]

 

 

Well I'm OK with a game design where a few items are unavailable unless you meet certain levels of competence in something even if it's quite difficult to attain and is unlikely to be met by a majority of people - especially a game where you're free to make "throw away" companions any way you wish at pretty much any time (with a trip to an Inn) and enough cash to purchase them. 

But those aren't end game contents. You don't do White March at level 12 (remember throw-away companions are 1-level lower). WM is a mid-game affair. And they slap an instant-kill trap in the middle of dungeon that at that point of the game you can't even detect, let alone disarm.

 

And then of course you go back to do Chapter 3 and nothing is a challenge anymore...

[gkathellar]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let's see ... a rogue with a +1 mechanics background would only need to reach a true value of 12. You can get a +2 resting bonus, so that's a true value of 10. So that's ... 55 skill points, right? You have that many by 10th level, with 5 points to spare.

You need 15 to get through WM.

Rogues start with +2. Background of +1. Resting bonus of +2. 10 points. 15.

 

I'm not trying to make any kind of point about this, but I'm pretty sure I've got basic arithmetic down.

Level 11.

Oh, yeah. That's ... that's a thing. Oops.

[Rathlord]

Ooy, I was honestly thinking about specificlaly mentioning the Boots of Evasion, just incase someone would miss the point by going too narrow this time, but really wanted to give more credit than that.

 

I was speaking about RNG in how it negatively relates to building a character in IE games.  The Boots of Evasion drop is just a small example of that in play. The Boots are part of the 'random' chests in Pillars, which are the only RNG aspects of character building in Pillars. Just because a poor decison has a small enough impact to be neglible doesn't make it not a poor design issue.

 

As for the Boots in particular, they can cost the player a Gauntlents of Accuracy, or a Blunting Belt, something you only get one of each in the game. If you wanted you wanted your tanks up front to be focused on stacking DR, or counting on the Acc from the hands slot, you can be out of luck. It's alright to not have that belt or gloves, but that should be something the player knows up front, not part way through a 70 hour+ game.

 

But again, it's not about the boots, they're just a small example of it in play in Pillars. A worse example is the stronghold merchant, who has unique items that can change a build which you can easily never see. Just because the game building isn't significantly undermined by RNG doesn't mean the instances it does have are negatives, not positives.

 

Again, all of this talk about being so many hours into a so long game and needing such and such stats still fall back to one thing:

 

You thinking you have to play in the most optimal way possible to get through the game.

 

 

And you're going to go right back to claiming that's not the case. Clearly, however, it is. People can and do beat the game without these items (literally) every day. You don't "need" any item to make a build- that is, unless you're metagaming with foreknowledge of some item you're basing a build around. And at that point- get over it, you're meta-gaming. That's not what the game is designed for.

 

 

 

There is no requirement to have any of these items. Not required to beat the game, to do it easily, or even to have a good time. The only reason to complain about not getting the items you want is because you can't run with a perfectly min/max'd character. If you go in without knowing the items- or simply without forcing your "fun" to revolve around getting certain items- there is nothing wrong with the current system, at all. Your party is not hurt by the lack of these items. The game is still playable, and worse, it's still easy. Keep denying it- for what it's worth- what it all boils down to is wanting the items you want.

 

And what's worst- absolutely, unarguably worse than anything else in this thread is the idea that your fun revolves around the items (It's demonstrably provable that you don't need items to beat the game [it's doable naked, without any hardship even] so don't even play that card); it's so glaringly offensive to the entire background of this game and the background of this entire genre. D&D was never about building a character around items, or even items at all. If you got magic items that was ****ing awesome but it was never a requirement or even something that was expected for many people. The fact that you've let your experience be damaged by not getting all optimal items on each run is a sad and startling eureka that you've missed the entire point- no, worse- the entire spirit of this genre of games. And that makes me sad for you; not in a mean way, I actually feel sorry for you to have missed out on what makes these kinds of experiences so magical.

[LaSpeakeasi]

Again, all of this talk about being so many hours into a so long game and needing such and such stats still fall back to one thing:

 

You thinking you have to play in the most optimal way possible to get through the game.

 

And you're going to go right back to claiming that's not the case. Clearly, however, it is. People can and do beat the game without these items (literally) every day. You don't "need" any item to make a build- that is, unless you're metagaming with foreknowledge of some item you're basing a build around. And at that point- get over it, you're meta-gaming. That's not what the game is designed for.

 

There is no requirement to have any of these items. Not required to beat the game, to do it easily, or even to have a good time. The only reason to complain about not getting the items you want is because you can't run with a perfectly min/max'd character. If you go in without knowing the items- or simply without forcing your "fun" to revolve around getting certain items- there is nothing wrong with the current system, at all. Your party is not hurt by the lack of these items. The game is still playable, and worse, it's still easy. Keep denying it- for what it's worth- what it all boils down to is wanting the items you want.

 

And what's worst- absolutely, unarguably worse than anything else in this thread is the idea that your fun revolves around the items (It's demonstrably provable that you don't need items to beat the game [it's doable naked, without any hardship even] so don't even play that card); it's so glaringly offensive to the entire background of this game and the background of this entire genre. D&D was never about building a character around items, or even items at all. If you got magic items that was ****ing awesome but it was never a requirement or even something that was expected for many people. The fact that you've let your experience be damaged by not getting all optimal items on each run is a sad and startling eureka that you've missed the entire point- no, worse- the entire spirit of this genre of games. And that makes me sad for you; not in a mean way, I actually feel sorry for you to have missed out on what makes these kinds of experiences so magical.

 

I don't think it's wrong to demand a game gives you satisfaction, a game you paid $60-85 for, and spend 100+ hours into. Maybe if he demanded to get the exact item he wanted whenever he wanted it, it would seem entitled. Here he's just demanded better loot from a fundamentally flawed random loot system that doesn't even give you necessary items (see previous posts on gloves) in most playthroughs. And he has a right to.

 

In PnP D&D getting to live another session is its own reward, not to mention playing with (hopefully; most of us aren't that lucky) friends. This is a single-player computer game. Of course you need constant stimulation to keep you interested. We could have gone outside and be with other people. If we opted to sit in front of a computer and play with imaginary pixels, damn right I want my time to accomplish something. Bragging right, fancy items, achievements, whatever.

 

If this... digital-sadomasochism is how you think videogames should be I worry for you. Like, if you have anything more constructive to spend your time on in your life.

[Oralaina]

Hmm.  Just a general question:  Teioh_White says above that there's only one pair of Gauntlets of Accuracy, and one Blunting Belt, in the game.  In my experience in this last play through (completed everything but the companion quests because I don't use the premades, and the Main Quest because I'm holding that until after WM2) I wound up with two pairs of Gauntlets of Accuracy and two Blunting Belts.  And in one of the play throughs I abandoned about halfway through, I had three Blunting Belts.

 

The only "cheat" I used in this play through was IE Mod about halfway through, only for the xp fix; and I didn't use any cheats on the other one.  I certainly didn't cheat in those items, since I didn't find them needful when I wound up with them.

 

So - apparently the RNG god in this game is truly an avatar of Kokopelli?

[Caerdon]

If this... digital-sadomasochism is how you think videogames should be I worry for you. Like, if you have anything more constructive to spend your time on in your life.

 

Sounds to me like he's actually enjoying the game, unlike those who "need constant stimulation" and access to 100% of loot in every playthrough to get their "satisfaction".

 

Where does this idea come from that you need to be able to open every single chest in the game to consider a playthrough "complete"?

 

Ridiculous. Just move on and play the game.

[Cottonmouth]

 

 

Let's see ... a rogue with a +1 mechanics background would only need to reach a true value of 12. You can get a +2 resting bonus, so that's a true value of 10. So that's ... 55 skill points, right? You have that many by 10th level, with 5 points to spare.

You need 15 to get through WM.

 

That's a case against having such a high powered trap placed there, not that the gloves shouldn't be random.

 

That said, I thought BG2's non random items were just fine, even if subsequent playthroughs were always going to be about quickly getting all the best gear.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Cottonmouth

[LaSpeakeasi]

 

If this... digital-sadomasochism is how you think videogames should be I worry for you. Like, if you have anything more constructive to spend your time on in your life.

 

Sounds to me like he's actually enjoying the game, unlike those who "need constant stimulation" and access to 100% of loot in every playthrough to get their "satisfaction".

 

Where does this idea come from that you need to be able to open every single chest in the game to consider a playthrough "complete"?

 

Ridiculous. Just move on and play the game.

 

Did I stutter? "Complete" is not an ambiguous word. You do every quest. Get every item. Get the best outcome in everything. Anything less than everything is not complete. If you think otherwise you should probably go back to grammar school.

[LaSpeakeasi]

That's a case against having such a high powered trap placed there, not that the gloves shouldn't be random.

 

 

That said, I thought BG2's non random items were just fine, even if subsequent playthroughs were always going to be about quickly getting all the best gear.

Well here's my case:

- Barring the gloves the only way you can get to that skill level (rk.13 + resting bonus) is to have a rogue dedicated to nothing else but mechanic, and level the rogue to lv.11.

- The rk. 15 traps are placed in WM. Meaning you do them at lv. 7-10.

- To even get the rogue companion you need to first get through that dungeon riddled with rk.13+ traps. Or you'll have to possibly game the RP system by making a skill slave rogue you otherwise won't use.

- If you go to the dungeon without a skill slave rogue that are no less than 2 instances where you may walk into an otherwise undetectable instant-death trap. On POTD difficulty that means your playthrough is DONE.

 

So yes the gloves are pretty essential. It is doable (I did it) without gaming the system. But the whole experience felt unfair to me, because the game deliberately didn't give me all the necessary tools to get through it.

[Caerdon]

 

 

If this... digital-sadomasochism is how you think videogames should be I worry for you. Like, if you have anything more constructive to spend your time on in your life.

 

Sounds to me like he's actually enjoying the game, unlike those who "need constant stimulation" and access to 100% of loot in every playthrough to get their "satisfaction".

 

Where does this idea come from that you need to be able to open every single chest in the game to consider a playthrough "complete"?

 

Ridiculous. Just move on and play the game.

 

 

Did I stutter? "Complete" is not an ambiguous word. You do every quest. Get every item. Get the best outcome in everything. Anything less than everything is not complete. If you think otherwise you should probably go back to grammar school.

 

Of course it's an ambiguous word, it has multiple meanings after all, which is very much the definition of "ambiguous". You're just picking a rather extreme interpretation. I'd consider a playthrough "complete" when you've finished the main storyline, everything else is bonus.

[gkathellar]

You know, folks, maybe different people are allowed to enjoy games in different ways and for different reasons. Maybe we should avoid calling each other names and pejoratives on the sole basis that we like different aspects of the same thing.

I like to optimize, personally, because I enjoy understanding the mechanics of a system and using that understanding to achieve particular ends. That's satisfying for me, and I find the involvement of the RNG in treasure acquisition frustrating as a result.

 

EDIT: Given that, I'm curious why anyone speaks for RNG loot. I understand being impartial either way, but what does it add to the game?

Edited September 23, 2015 by gkathellar

[Oralaina]

"Complete" to me generally means that I've done everything I personally set out to do in a given game.  For me, that's not normally "do EVERY quest, get EVERY item" etc.  For one thing, I never do the companion quests because I really dislike premades foisted on me.  And sometimes I'll get into a quest line where I can tell I'm just going to HATE the way it turns out, and if it's going to break my personal immersion or otherwise leave a bad taste in my mouth, I won't finish it (unless of course it's part of the main quest line - which has happened in years past and games back then, but not so far in PoE).

 

So LaSpeakeasi could have his/her version of complete with this game; and Caerdon could have a different one; and both of you would be right for yourselves alone - and explaining why you like things "that way" is fine, but as gkathellar says, please don't beat each other up over it!

Edited September 23, 2015 by Oralaina

[Rathlord]

 

Again, all of this talk about being so many hours into a so long game and needing such and such stats still fall back to one thing:

 

You thinking you have to play in the most optimal way possible to get through the game.

 

And you're going to go right back to claiming that's not the case. Clearly, however, it is. People can and do beat the game without these items (literally) every day. You don't "need" any item to make a build- that is, unless you're metagaming with foreknowledge of some item you're basing a build around. And at that point- get over it, you're meta-gaming. That's not what the game is designed for.

 

There is no requirement to have any of these items. Not required to beat the game, to do it easily, or even to have a good time. The only reason to complain about not getting the items you want is because you can't run with a perfectly min/max'd character. If you go in without knowing the items- or simply without forcing your "fun" to revolve around getting certain items- there is nothing wrong with the current system, at all. Your party is not hurt by the lack of these items. The game is still playable, and worse, it's still easy. Keep denying it- for what it's worth- what it all boils down to is wanting the items you want.

 

And what's worst- absolutely, unarguably worse than anything else in this thread is the idea that your fun revolves around the items (It's demonstrably provable that you don't need items to beat the game [it's doable naked, without any hardship even] so don't even play that card); it's so glaringly offensive to the entire background of this game and the background of this entire genre. D&D was never about building a character around items, or even items at all. If you got magic items that was ****ing awesome but it was never a requirement or even something that was expected for many people. The fact that you've let your experience be damaged by not getting all optimal items on each run is a sad and startling eureka that you've missed the entire point- no, worse- the entire spirit of this genre of games. And that makes me sad for you; not in a mean way, I actually feel sorry for you to have missed out on what makes these kinds of experiences so magical.

 

I don't think it's wrong to demand a game gives you satisfaction, a game you paid $60-85 for, and spend 100+ hours into. Maybe if he demanded to get the exact item he wanted whenever he wanted it, it would seem entitled. Here he's just demanded better loot from a fundamentally flawed random loot system that doesn't even give you necessary items (see previous posts on gloves) in most playthroughs. And he has a right to.

 

In PnP D&D getting to live another session is its own reward, not to mention playing with (hopefully; most of us aren't that lucky) friends. This is a single-player computer game. Of course you need constant stimulation to keep you interested. We could have gone outside and be with other people. If we opted to sit in front of a computer and play with imaginary pixels, damn right I want my time to accomplish something. Bragging right, fancy items, achievements, whatever.

 

If this... digital-sadomasochism is how you think videogames should be I worry for you. Like, if you have anything more constructive to spend your time on in your life.

 

 

Guess again, entitlement generation.

 

You don't "deserve" to have the game modeled around you. This is an ignorant, arrogant fallacy that gamers have dreamed up for themselves and now consider fact. Everyone doesn't "deserve" to be able to play the game how they want to.

 

The game is modeled after the developers goals and vision. Do they take feedback? Sure they do, and that's awesome. But no one deserves to have the game forced to match their expectations. They were quite honest about what this game would be when it was being made.

 

So no, he doesn't need to "demand" satisfaction from a game he's metagaming and playing in a way not in the vision of the developers. The game isn't built around min/maxing and if that steps on your toes- too effing bad. I don't go on Call of Duty forums and whine about how it's not a realistic shooter. He wants something from this game that it isn't designed for.

 

Have fun with the game the devs (and majority of the fans wanted) or don't. It's not sweat off my brow. But don't act like anyone is entitled to anything other than the game they paid for- which is exactly what they got. No one anywhere was led to believe this game would have any specific loot system without RNG.

 

If you wanna argue it's not fun for you- fine, argue that to your heart's content. But don't bring up how it's fine to demand whatever you want out of a game. That's not appropriate or accurate.

[LaSpeakeasi]

 

 

 

Guess again, entitlement generation.

 

You don't "deserve" to have the game modeled around you. This is an ignorant, arrogant fallacy that gamers have dreamed up for themselves and now consider fact. Everyone doesn't "deserve" to be able to play the game how they want to.

 

The game is modeled after the developers goals and vision. Do they take feedback? Sure they do, and that's awesome. But no one deserves to have the game forced to match their expectations. They were quite honest about what this game would be when it was being made.

 

So no, he doesn't need to "demand" satisfaction from a game he's metagaming and playing in a way not in the vision of the developers. The game isn't built around min/maxing and if that steps on your toes- too effing bad. I don't go on Call of Duty forums and whine about how it's not a realistic shooter. He wants something from this game that it isn't designed for.

 

Have fun with the game the devs (and majority of the fans wanted) or don't. It's not sweat off my brow. But don't act like anyone is entitled to anything other than the game they paid for- which is exactly what they got. No one anywhere was led to believe this game would have any specific loot system without RNG.

 

If you wanna argue it's not fun for you- fine, argue that to your heart's content. But don't bring up how it's fine to demand whatever you want out of a game. That's not appropriate or accurate.

 

Guess what, entitlement generation are the ones buying games now. Times have changed. Taking consumer feedback isn't just a cool thing to do. It's an absolute necessity. Why do you think PoE was on Kickstarter? Do you seriously think you can develop a $60 game without giving people like OP what they want?

 

AAA gaming isn't high art. If you are that specific about your vision and goal of antagonizing players. Make a $20 indie game. Plenty of people love that (myself included). You make a $60 game. You make mass market adjustments and try to satisfy everyone. And you start acting like you care.

 

As a consumer of course I'm going to be stand on the side of another consumer. Even if I don't want what the OP wants, his demands as a fellow consumer empowers me. And so should you. Because you are as much as a consumer as we are.

 

And you don't know more about "visions and goals" more than any of us. You don't work for OBS. Or you would've been fired for belittle the OP, aka people who put food on your table.

[gkathellar]

Guess again, entitlement generation.

 

ITP: You damn hippies with your drugs and your velocipedes and your Mozart. Why, when I was your age, we had to rub two rocks together in the snow to make fire! Uphill! Both ways! And we liked it! Edited September 23, 2015 by gkathellar

[Caerdon]

EDIT: Given that, I'm curious why anyone speaks for RNG loot. I understand being impartial either way, but what does it add to the game?

 

A huge amount of replay value.

 

Just to be clear: I'd love to have more randomized elements in general, not just loot. I want quests with varying elements, even if they were just some NPCs that change location in each playthrough. I'd certainly like to have more randomization in combat encounters, so that I don't always know that there's a lurker lurking behind that one particular tree. All that would make exploration much more meaningful and worthwhile in subsequent playthroughs, but even just procedural loot would be a huge step in the right direction.

[Teioh_White]

 

EDIT: Given that, I'm curious why anyone speaks for RNG loot. I understand being impartial either way, but what does it add to the game?

 

A huge amount of replay value.

 

Just to be clear: I'd love to have more randomized elements in general, not just loot. I want quests with varying elements, even if they were just some NPCs that change location in each playthrough. I'd certainly like to have more randomization in combat encounters, so that I don't always know that there's a lurker lurking behind that one particular tree. All that would make exploration much more meaningful and worthwhile in subsequent playthroughs, but even just procedural loot would be a huge step in the right direction.

 

Hmm, can't say I can recall a game where RNG loot has given me any worthwhile replay value, let alone huge. I've found deep gameplay systems that allow for multiple ways of accomplishing the same goal, that are satisfying to execute, give replay value. The chance to get different gear than I got last time? I can't see that making me want to play through something again.

 

Maybe it could be nice -in addition- to the above, depending on game design in certain genres. But by itself, no chance of saving a game from an uninstall after completion. On the other hand, it's easy to see how RNG in a game based on class/party builds, significant RNG in loot just spoils the whole thing. (Like really, not getting your Holy Avenger in BG2 when you wanted to be a pally? That'd be terribe).

 

RNG in fights would help a ton in a game like this, where most fights aren't really 'designed' encounters, more just some random mobs standing around. Would spice if up to have some different mobs standing around, though not a great deal. (Idealy solution is less trash fights and more designed encounters, but that starts pushing towards a different genre).

 

I prefer limitations and choices on what one can do in a single playthrough myself, to encourage replay value. It's not terribly hard to do, but most RPG's tend to go the way of letting you get almost everything in a single run. Constraints breed creativity and all that.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Teioh_White

[gkathellar]

 

EDIT: Given that, I'm curious why anyone speaks for RNG loot. I understand being impartial either way, but what does it add to the game?

 

A huge amount of replay value.

 

Just to be clear: I'd love to have more randomized elements in general, not just loot. I want quests with varying elements, even if they were just some NPCs that change location in each playthrough. I'd certainly like to have more randomization in combat encounters, so that I don't always know that there's a lurker lurking behind that one particular tree. All that would make exploration much more meaningful and worthwhile in subsequent playthroughs, but even just procedural loot would be a huge step in the right direction.

 

Okay, that's fair. Certainly people use the Item Randomizer mods for BG2 and Tutu for much the same reason. My own experience with said mod was iffy (I found that items ended up in hugely inappropriate locations), but I can at least understand the sentiment.

 

Personally, I get a certain amount of replay value out of predictability. In BG2, I would think to myself, "oh, I should bring a paladin for Carsomyr," and I would eagerly look forward to reaching a level where I could brawl with Firkraag and seize the legendary sword. In PoE, I have the same sort of calculus about a weapon like Tidefall, or Tall Grass. I could name other examples in PoE and other games - loot is something I look forward to having and using in linear RPG.

 

Counterintuitive as it sounds, I think some of the frustration from people like me may actually result from how little is randomized. In most respects, PoE is very hand-crafted. Areas are plotted out, quests are organized, and gear is placed with a clear guiding intent. That makes the small number of random or pseudo-random gear placements stick out like sore thumbs, and it can make particular playthrough goals (as Oralaina so deftly put it above) kind of senselessly arbitrary. On the other hand? If gear, quests and other things were generally randomized, as you would have it, I dunno if that'd bother me at all. I've played and enjoyed a lot of procedurally generated games. It may be the seemingly random addition of very small amounts of procedural content to an otherwise predictable game that's actually annoying.

 

Eh. Food for thought.

[Caerdon]

Hmm, can't say I can recall a game where RNG loot has given me any worthwhile replay value, let alone huge. I've found deep gameplay systems that allow for multiple ways of accomplishing the same goal, that are satisfying to execute, give replay value. The chance to get different gear than I got last time? I can't see that making me want to play through something again.

 

Maybe it could be nice -in addition- to the above, depending on game design in certain genres. But by itself, no chance of saving a game from an uninstall after completion. On the other hand, it's easy to see how RNG in a game based on class/party builds, significant RNG in loot just spoils the whole thing. (Like really, not getting your Holy Avenger in BG2 when you wanted to be a pally? That'd be terribe).

 

RNG in fights would help a ton in a game like this, where most fights aren't really 'designed' encounters, more just some random mobs standing around. Would spice if up to have some different mobs standing around, though not a great deal. (Idealy solution is less trash fights and more designed encounters, but that starts pushing towards a different genre).

 

I prefer limitations and choices on what one can do in a single playthrough myself, to encourage replay value. It's not terribly hard to do, but most RPG's tend to go the way of letting you get almost everything in a single run. Constraints breed creativity and all that.

Item randomization mod is one of my must-have mods for BG1/2, and that's just a really naive, simplistic implementation of item randomization. Let's be clear here: "the chance to get different gear than I got last time" is not the reason why I "want to play through something again" - but it absolutely increases my enjoyment of the game.

 

Not getting the Holy Avenger isn't all that horrible really, there are plenty of excellent weapons in the game - especially when you adjust your mindset: you shouldn't take every item for granted and plan your playthrough around the items you know you're going to find, you should plan for the unexpected and find ways to make do with what you get. If paladins are too weak without Carsomyr - another discussion entirely - then that's a problem with class balance, not loot distribution. And, of course, procedural loot doesn't mean that unique monsters can't have specific, unique loot (why do people even keep bringing this up?)

 

 

Okay, that's fair. Certainly people use the Item Randomizer mods for BG2 and Tutu for much the same reason. My own experience with said mod was iffy (I found that items ended up in hugely inappropriate locations), but I can at least understand the sentiment.

 

Personally, I get a certain amount of replay value out of predictability. In BG2, I would think to myself, "oh, I should bring a paladin for Carsomyr," and I would eagerly look forward to reaching a level where I could brawl with Firkraag and seize the legendary sword. In PoE, I have the same sort of calculus about a weapon like Tidefall, or Tall Grass. I could name other examples in PoE and other games - loot is something I look forward to having and using in linear RPG.

 

Counterintuitive as it sounds, I think some of the frustration from people like me may actually result from how little is randomized. In most respects, PoE is very hand-crafted. Areas are plotted out, quests are organized, and gear is placed with a clear guiding intent. That makes the small number of random or pseudo-random gear placements stick out like sore thumbs, and it can make particular playthrough goals (as Oralaina so deftly put it above) kind of senselessly arbitrary. On the other hand? If gear, quests and other things were generally randomized, as you would have it, I dunno if that'd bother me at all. I've played and enjoyed a lot of procedurally generated games. It may be the seemingly random addition of very small amounts of procedural content to an otherwise predictable game that's actually annoying.

 

Eh. Food for thought.

 

About your second paragraph: I totally get that, and that's certainly the upside of non-randomized loot. I just think that the downsides are much more significant. The simple fact is that you're gimping your party if you don't have a paladin, someone with proficiency in flails, another with proficiency in katanas etc. Non-randomized loot discourages experimentation with classes and weapon proficiencies because you already know in advance what the optimal setups are. Of course, BG2 with item randomization mod is far from a perfect example, because the game wasn't designed for that and the item distribution in the game is extremely unbalanced - some weapon categories are just better than others, regardless of loot distribution.

 

[MunoValente]

Thinking about it a little more, the only item I'm really annoyed about being random is Gloves of Manipulation, pretty much every other random item is much easier to work around or has some vaguely similar replacement.  Maybe Boots of Speed as well, but that is about it.

[wanderon]

Thinking about it a little more, the only item I'm really annoyed about being random is Gloves of Manipulation, pretty much every other random item is much easier to work around or has some vaguely similar replacement.  Maybe Boots of Speed as well, but that is about it.

 

And don't forget the Boots of Evasion!