Better Wizard play experience

[FacesOfMu]

There's some chat already on making Wizard spell casting and strategy more fun for the player here:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82035-i-have-so-many-grimoires-img/

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/81222-wizard-grimoires-why/

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/81221-wizard-grimoires-why/ (mistaken duplicate, but with additional chat)

 

To sum:

- Wizard, Druid and Priest spellcasting just gets more fun for the player after level 8 with casting per encounter. And then even better every two levels. Don't argue, it just does.

- For whatever reason, Druids and Priests get all their spells per tier available. Wizards pick 4 per tier per book.

- Myself and other players never bothered to switch a grimoire in my entire playthrough. I believe this means the Wizard gameplay design wasn't inspiring enough to cause us to want to switch grimoires and therefore experience more of the Wizard spell pool available.

- Wizards have 30% more spells available, but little incentive to switch and use more of them.

 

Different quality spell books

One strong call for change peoples have mentioned is enhancing grimoires in some way to vary their quality. Better grimoires would offer more slots at each tier. Maybe it doesn't need to be a linear increase per tier. Some tiers could have more or less than those above and below. This would create more variety in the spellbooks you get off parties of Wizards you fight, rather than them all containing the same spells and slots.

 

Metamagic enhancements to spell stats

Ymarsakar brought up the idea of metemagic boots from DnD:
"... a way to metamagic boost stuff using spell levels or using higher spell levels to give lower spell slots back (tactically useful with some spells)."

 

So one way of creating books of differing quality is for a small minority of spell slots to give metamagic enhancements to the spell you slot to them. Some examples are that one slot makes that slotted spell twice as fast, one slot makes that spell have x1.5 range, one makes the spell foe-only, one increases the crit damage multiplier by .1, etc. If these seem too powerful, then they can be matched with a weakening stat (x1.1 range and x0.9 damage, whatever).

 

More casting per battle

The big suggestion here, on top of these ideas, is to make all grimoire spells 1 cast per encounter. Too often in POE we don't excerise the fullness of our spellcasting class because we are always holding on to powerful spells "just in case the boss in next". Sadly only the Wizard, Druid, and Priest really sit with this feeling of being held back. All other classes get a good number of skills that are per-encounter, and they have them from early on. And we know Ciphers and Chanters are powerful (and liberating) in how they recycle their skill currencies. Bringing more of that level 8-12 play experience to the rest of the game is a very good thing, and can always be balanced in the numbers where necessary.

 

One limiting factor is that Wizards won't always be abundant with the most powerful spells. The Wizard is not guaranteed to get 4 slots per tier anymore, and Wizard enemies aren't guaranteed 4 slots at the highest tier (1-2 would be more normal). Wizards will not always be flush with the best spells in one book.

Having a variation on the numbers of spells slots per tier in your book (anywhere from 0 to n), and being able to cast every spell in any battle (but only once!), would increase the chance that we'd keep a second or third book on hand that had a different array of slots and metamagic enhancements.

 

It would also mean the devs wouldn't need to struggle with keeping low level spells as usable as high level spells. If every spell can only be cast once, then low level spells won't be as unbalanced as they can be now (with 7 casts of slicken, fireball, etc). Low level spells can still be made decently powerful as long as they suit your strategy for being cast at whatever stage of the battle is necessary.

Rather than casting your favourite spell 7 times (I loooooved my Tier 3 Minoletta's Bounding Missiles! It was such an easy, mindless, spam spell), you will look closely at the foe's resistances, see what you've got prepared (or in other grimoires) and figure out which order to cast them. For example, low lightning DR might mean casting Lightning when they're far away, Jolting Touch when they're near, then what??? You can't just keep casting Favourite Spell X against foes, you'll need to think better on ways to play your spells, and play them in an order for maximum strategy.

 

You might think "but I'd just cast high level spells alone!"

You may only have 1 or 2 slots in your book for that tier, and you may have given up books with more slots because you liked the combination of blank slots and metamagic slots in this book.

 

Also, high levels spells exist because they meet more scenarios, whereas lower level spells should be more specific. For example, Ninagauth's Freezing Pillar is a great Foe-only AOE DOT freezing spell. To compensate for these great features, it's range, damage, duration, etc, are modfied in such a way that it is better than, but still comparable, to say Noxious Burst (Tier 3 Friendly-fire AOE DOT corrosive spell). If all spells in your slots are available per encounter, but only once each, then you still work to the strengths of the spells vs the weaknesses of your foes vs the particular conditions and battlefield layout at the time the spell is cast.

This last point about high/low level spell balance isn't a suggestion from this post; this is game design 101.

 

Then what happens at level 8-10-12?

The final comment is the per-encounter change that happens at level 8, 10, and 12. In this case, rather than make spells per encounter (as they do now), every spellbook you equip will behave as if it is slotted with all your known spells at that tier. So at level 8 you may be casting from a book that gives you 3, 4, or 5 slots at tier 1, but the new enhancement would make your tier 1 be flush with all the spells you know at tier 1. When you go to edit your spell book, you will still only see the spells you've slotted (so that you can make use of metamagic slots, etc), but when you bring up the spellbar in combat, all your known spells for that tier will show. So at level 12 you can cast all your tier 1, 2, and 3 spells that you know, but once per encounter.

When you hit the 8, 10, 12 marks, you can also worry less about how many slots each spellbook gives you at the lower tiers and you can trade for books with a better distribution of slots in the mid and upper levels.

 

AI for companions would also be easier as there'd be no need to worry about "use per rest" skills except other abilities and items you've given them. There'd also be a lot of room for creating new class talents based on this. For example, a talent that gives every spellbook you hold a +range metamagic slot at tier x, or adding a x1.1 damage multiplier on wider AOE metamagic slots, etc.

 

With this system,

• Wizard players and Wizard managers will have a LOT more fun knowing they can use up all the spells available, and
• will still think as hard about which order to cast the spells to get the most use out of them, and
• will be examining foe weaknesses to figure out which spells will do the most damage and when to cast them, and
• will be delighted to find spell books with better combinations of slots and metamagic enhancements, and
• will have a bit more incentive than they do now to try swapping grimoires and managing a strategic library of powerful spells selected from the large pool given to them.

Edited September 12, 2015 by FacesOfMu

[Katarack21]

"The big suggestion here, on top of these ideas, is to make all grimoire spells 1 cast per encounter."

 

Not necessary. If you wanna play a sorceror type blaster character, that's what cipher is for. Don't turn my wizard into a sorc. I like the difference. It's why I play a wizard, and not a sorc.

[FacesOfMu]

"The big suggestion here, on top of these ideas, is to make all grimoire spells 1 cast per encounter."

 

Not necessary. If you wanna play a sorceror type blaster character, that's what cipher is for. Don't turn my wizard into a sorc. I like the difference. It's why I play a wizard, and not a sorc.

I think I can understand your viewpoint. I'm interested to know your thoughts on the 8,10,12 per-encounter bonus?

[KDubya]

I think you are trying to find a solution to a problem that does not exist.

 

Wizards are a great class, even Aloth with his non-optimal stats is a superstar.

 

At low levels you get Arcane Blast which is AoE, dazzles, does raw damage and is twice per encounter. You can grab the two wand talents and get an AoE attack that penetrates DR and has two different damage types. Plus you have your spells available whenever you need to "crank it up to eleven!". Another useful way to extend your spells is to cast the staff spell which lasts for like a minute and stand behind your frontline and whack things harder than any one else on your team can do. At level five you can get the blight spell which again gives you an awesome AoE weapon that lasts for like a minute.

 

At higher levels you can add the low level spells to your per encounter tool box and even your talents placed in the wands are still useful as they apply to minor blights.

 

To learn the spells you need to take the grimoire from the cold dead hands of your enemy, no shopping for you! (Not counting the exploit style of hiring adventurers and copying from their book)

 

In DnD wizards were strategic in that they could learn all the spells but only bring a few with them and only use them as they had written them specific to uses and to any metamagic. The saying was that a wizard was unbeatable IF he knew about the fight the day before.

 

Sorcerers were tactical in that you only knew a few spells but you could use them any way you wanted including uses per day and metamagic. You could cast like five fireballs, then another five silenced fireballs, then another five empowered, then another five maximized and then another five quickened fireballs. This was pretty damn awesome as long as you wanted fireballs, and if not you could do the same with an acid attack or cold or whatever.

 

PoE combines the two in a nice way. You can learn all the spells, you can bring four at a time in your book, you can cast one four times or each once, whatever you want its up to you. You can change your spell choices easily to adjust to your situation, hell you can even grab a different grimoire with totally different spells in combat if you really end up with the wrong spells.

 

Being limited per rest adds a strategic element, you save the big guns for when needed. If you did not have to save the big guns you'd use them all the time and the game would either have to be balanced for you using the best spells every time or the spells would have to be greatly reduced in power. If you cast spells as fast and as often as a Ranger fires his bow then your spells can't be much stronger than a Ranger's bow. That would be a terrible system.

 

There are already metamagic type talents and spells. The alacrity of action gets you like a minute of +50% speed and is per encounter at level 13. You can take the specific element boosters that get you +20% damage.

 

And finally the game already lets you use every spell every battle right now with now changes. Just rest after each fight.

[LaSpeakeasi]

The only major problem a wizard faces as of now is the fact that you pay extra gold to learn spells. Then when you retrain your wizards you lose all the spells you already paid for. And you ended up with a huge copper investment. And dozens of grimoires that you must drag along for the entirety of the game, since there is no centralized archive that lets you manage your spells better.

[KDubya]

The only major problem a wizard faces as of now is the fact that you pay extra gold to learn spells. Then when you retrain your wizards you lose all the spells you already paid for. And you ended up with a huge copper investment. And dozens of grimoires that you must drag along for the entirety of the game, since there is no centralized archive that lets you manage your spells better.

 

 

The having to re-purchase all of your spells is a limitation of how the re-leveling works. I don't see how they would fix it unless they somehow flagged your spell picks and did not allow you to pick any spells at all during a re-spec level up.

 

You have a limitless stash that can hold every item in the world, so I don't see the hardship of simply not vender trashing some of your grimoires that you collect. You can even fill each one up with different spells so four of them should be sufficient to hold 16 different spells of every level for use in case you choose to re-spec your wizard.

[Katarack21]

 

The only major problem a wizard faces as of now is the fact that you pay extra gold to learn spells. Then when you retrain your wizards you lose all the spells you already paid for. And you ended up with a huge copper investment. And dozens of grimoires that you must drag along for the entirety of the game, since there is no centralized archive that lets you manage your spells better.

 

 

The having to re-purchase all of your spells is a limitation of how the re-leveling works. I don't see how they would fix it unless they somehow flagged your spell picks and did not allow you to pick any spells at all during a re-spec level up.

They clearly track the spells you know and whatnot in the game. There should be someway to archive how many spells you know, perhaps doing so in the moments before you enter character generation and do the respec, and simply letting you choose that number of spells. That would be in line with the whole idea of a respec in letting you redo your whole spell list.

 

Of course I'm not a game designer or programmer of any sort. For all I know this is literally impossible.

[Heijoushin]

Despite the cynical remarks above, some of these suggestions are really good! If nothing else, I agree that I NEVER change grimoires, so making grimoires with different abilities is a nice idea.

[GrumpyGoesWest]

There is also the Quick Switch talent that helps you switch grimoires faster. What I like to do with Aloth (or with any wizard really) is have a damage book, a melee book, and a control book. Most of the time I use Wizards for control but when I feel like mixing it up I bust out the melee grimoire and go to town. What I've found is in this game the companions may not have optimal attributes for say PotD but they are well rounded for the other difficulties. I've played with Durance in scale armor with a sword using his Magran talent. No shield, just a sword and he does great.

[Doppelschwert]

Or, we could stop putting even more dev time into the caster classes (which already received the most attention throughout development because of their sheer abundance of abilities) and implement new talents for the martial classes, which are relative weaker in power level and diversity.

 

Making for a more fun game for a greater demographic than just the little amount of people who are still unsatisfied with the already OP caster classes.

[FacesOfMu]

Despite the cynical remarks above, some of these suggestions are really good! If nothing else, I agree that I NEVER change grimoires, so making grimoires with different abilities is a nice idea.

Thanks, Heijoushin. I appreciate your big picture perspective.

 

Or, we could stop putting even more dev time into the caster classes (which already received the most attention throughout development because of their sheer abundance of abilities) and implement new talents for the martial classes, which are relative weaker in power level and diversity.

 

Making for a more fun game for a greater demographic than just the little amount of people who are still unsatisfied with the already OP caster classes.

I agree with you on this one, too, Doppelschwert. The fighter classes leave a lot to be desired, too. I hope you can still see the value in this suggestion, even if it is less priority?

Edited September 12, 2015 by FacesOfMu

[FacesOfMu]

 

 

The only major problem a wizard faces as of now is the fact that you pay extra gold to learn spells. Then when you retrain your wizards you lose all the spells you already paid for. And you ended up with a huge copper investment. And dozens of grimoires that you must drag along for the entirety of the game, since there is no centralized archive that lets you manage your spells better.

 

 

The having to re-purchase all of your spells is a limitation of how the re-leveling works. I don't see how they would fix it unless they somehow flagged your spell picks and did not allow you to pick any spells at all during a re-spec level up.

They clearly track the spells you know and whatnot in the game. There should be someway to archive how many spells you know, perhaps doing so in the moments before you enter character generation and do the respec, and simply letting you choose that number of spells. That would be in line with the whole idea of a respec in letting you redo your whole spell list.

 

Of course I'm not a game designer or programmer of any sort. For all I know this is literally impossible.

 

Yup, tracking whether you've scribed a spell before is toggling a boolean flag per spell, at least. I can't perceive programmatic need to not record this data and stop double charging scribing costs.

Edited September 12, 2015 by FacesOfMu

[Sannom]

Not necessary. If you wanna play a sorceror type blaster character, that's what cipher is for. Don't turn my wizard into a sorc. I like the difference. It's why I play a wizard, and not a sorc.

I hate to break it to you, but PoE wizards are already D&D sorcerers as is, with the minor caveat that PoE wizards get less known spells per level than D&D sorcerers but have the ability to switch their known spells thanks to the grimoires.

 

In fact, PoE priests and druids are also D&D sorcerers, but with all the advantages (the ability to cast any combination of spells of any level as long as they have the necessary resources) and none of the drawbacks (their spell selection isn't limited).

 

The having to re-purchase all of your spells is a limitation of how the re-leveling works. I don't see how they would fix it unless they somehow flagged your spell picks and did not allow you to pick any spells at all during a re-spec level up.

As someone who doesn't like that wizards can select new spells on level up, I can see a very simple solution to that problem

 

My ideas for wizards :

 

- Make spells per-encounter at an earlier level but graduate their progression. For example, start with one 1st-level spell slot which becomes per-encounter at level 6 and go from there.

- I like the metamagic proposed by the OP.

- I'm absolutely opposed to the idea of making every spell of a certain level known by the wizard available to him once he is high-level enough! Plus, I don't think this is realiitically going to happen, Adam and Josh apparently believe that priests and druids have way too many abilities available for each encounter, this would just create the same thing for wizards.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Sannom

[Doppelschwert]

 

The having to re-purchase all of your spells is a limitation of how the re-leveling works. I don't see how they would fix it unless they somehow flagged your spell picks and did not allow you to pick any spells at all during a re-spec level up.

As someone who doesn't like that wizards can select new spells on level up, I can see a very simple solution to that problem

 

I agree. I think it would be a nice balancing tool to not give any spells on level up, letting the wizards search for their spells in the game world. This way, there is no need to forget any spells on respeccing, and it's not quite that easy for wizards to become strong just by having an experience bonus. They actually described the gaining of chanter phrases like this during development, which sadly didn't make it into the game.

[KDubya]

 

Not necessary. If you wanna play a sorceror type blaster character, that's what cipher is for. Don't turn my wizard into a sorc. I like the difference. It's why I play a wizard, and not a sorc.

I hate to break it to you, but PoE wizards are already D&D sorcerers as is, with the minor caveat that PoE wizards get less known spells per level than D&D sorcerers but have the ability to switch their known spells thanks to the grimoires.

 

In fact, PoE priests and druids are also D&D sorcerers, but with all the advantages (the ability to cast any combination of spells of any level as long as they have the necessary resources) and none of the drawbacks (their spell selection isn't limited).

 

The having to re-purchase all of your spells is a limitation of how the re-leveling works. I don't see how they would fix it unless they somehow flagged your spell picks and did not allow you to pick any spells at all during a re-spec level up.

As someone who doesn't like that wizards can select new spells on level up, I can see a very simple solution to that problem

 

My ideas for wizards :

 

- Make spells per-encounter at an earlier level but graduate their progression. For example, start with one 1st-level spell slot which becomes per-encounter at level 6 and go from there.

- I like the metamagic proposed by the OP.

- I'm absolutely opposed to the idea of making every spell of a certain level known by the wizard available to him once he is high-level enough! Plus, I don't think this is realiitically going to happen, Adam and Josh apparently believe that priests and druids have way too many abilities available for each encounter, this would just create the same thing for wizards.

 

 

 

If you feel that your Wizard is lacking compared to a Priest or a Druid just use one of them instead.

 

In pretty much every system I've ever seen Priests and Druids get all the spells at level up since they come from nature or the gods. Wizards get their spells from scrolls or in this game from grimoires.

 

If you did not allow Wizards to pick spells at level up they'd have to find them in the grimoires of their slain enemies. Killing that first one with only your starting level one spells would be tough. It'd be murder on a new player. And what do you gain for all this hardship? The ability for Wizard players to be able to re-spec to their heart's content by saving them some coppers?

 

Wizards are not lacking for power so there is not a reason to expand upon their per encounter spells. You can currently use all of your spells every encounter, you just have to rest more. It's a single player game, no one will know that your Wizard is narcoleptic and needs to sleep 20 hours per day Its not as if your forum signature states how often you rest to shame you online

 

Before people would complain about Ciphers and their casting. Now ciphers don't have enough starting focus to cast their top end powers to start a fight If they end up missing too much or not being able to do enough damage they can't cast at all. They look to be balanced and challenging now. At level 13 your Cipher can let loose with one Amplified Wave and then needs to start attacking to get focus to do anything else, while a Wizard can let loose with level 1, 2 or 3 as often as they want and still have the four casts of level 4, 5, 6 and 7 on a per rest basis.

 

 

On metamagic making spells more powerful I have to say NO. Wizard spells are powerful now, why do they need to be made more powerful beyond what is currently available via the +20% element talents and Alacrity of Motion (which is per encounter at level 13 for an effectively permanent 50% speed boost) If the plan is to reduce spells in power such that with the new metamagic they are as effective as current spells I'd have to ask why bother?

 

I'd rate Wizards as the current King of PoE, no reason to give them more. In fact there should perhaps be discussion concerning the way per encounter spells are gained and what it bodes for the future.

[KDubya]

Woops double post

Edited September 12, 2015 by KDubya

[LaSpeakeasi]

 

The only major problem a wizard faces as of now is the fact that you pay extra gold to learn spells. Then when you retrain your wizards you lose all the spells you already paid for. And you ended up with a huge copper investment. And dozens of grimoires that you must drag along for the entirety of the game, since there is no centralized archive that lets you manage your spells better.

 

 

The having to re-purchase all of your spells is a limitation of how the re-leveling works. I don't see how they would fix it unless they somehow flagged your spell picks and did not allow you to pick any spells at all during a re-spec level up.

 

You have a limitless stash that can hold every item in the world, so I don't see the hardship of simply not vender trashing some of your grimoires that you collect. You can even fill each one up with different spells so four of them should be sufficient to hold 16 different spells of every level for use in case you choose to re-spec your wizard.

 

That would actually be exactly fine. Just don't let the character learn any spell at all at re-spec. There are other ways for wizards to learn those spells. You'll save more than you miss.

 

Respecing wasn't a thing until a patch 6 months into release. If you have a save from before and you've been selling your grimoires you're sh*t out of luck. Buying them back is 750cp a piece.

 

And how much do you suppose it was to copy those spells in the 1st place, and now to pay them all over again? I hope your wizard is rich 'cause that's easily double or triple the cost of respecing of other classes.

[Sannom]

If you feel that your Wizard is lacking compared to a Priest or a Druid just use one of them instead.

I don't think they're lacking so much as I'm surprised they didn't think up a limitation for the priests and druids when they decided to give up on the "you have to prepare your spells" part of the Vancian system.

 

In pretty much every system I've ever seen Priests and Druids get all the spells at level up since they come from nature or the gods.

True, but in NWN2 for example, clerics still had to choose, like wizards, which spells they would cast for the day. Divine Souls and Spirit Shamans, the divine magic equivalents of sorcerers, could only know a limited number of spells. PoE's priest and wizards are basically those two last class but without the limitation.

 

If you did not allow Wizards to pick spells at level up they'd have to find them in the grimoires of their slain enemies. Killing that first one with only your starting level one spells would be tough.

Augment the number of 1st-level spells they have access to at the begining of the game then.

[FacesOfMu]

 

Not necessary. If you wanna play a sorceror type blaster character, that's what cipher is for. Don't turn my wizard into a sorc. I like the difference. It's why I play a wizard, and not a sorc.

I hate to break it to you, but PoE wizards are already D&D sorcerers as is, with the minor caveat that PoE wizards get less known spells per level than D&D sorcerers but have the ability to switch their known spells thanks to the grimoires.

 

In fact, PoE priests and druids are also D&D sorcerers, but with all the advantages (the ability to cast any combination of spells of any level as long as they have the necessary resources) and none of the drawbacks (their spell selection isn't limited).

 

The having to re-purchase all of your spells is a limitation of how the re-leveling works. I don't see how they would fix it unless they somehow flagged your spell picks and did not allow you to pick any spells at all during a re-spec level up.

As someone who doesn't like that wizards can select new spells on level up, I can see a very simple solution to that problem

 

My ideas for wizards :

 

- Make spells per-encounter at an earlier level but graduate their progression. For example, start with one 1st-level spell slot which becomes per-encounter at level 6 and go from there.

- I like the metamagic proposed by the OP.

- I'm absolutely opposed to the idea of making every spell of a certain level known by the wizard available to him once he is high-level enough! Plus, I don't think this is realiitically going to happen, Adam and Josh apparently believe that priests and druids have way too many abilities available for each encounter, this would just create the same thing for wizards.

 

Making per-encounter spells available earlier is a move in the right direction, but making it one slot at a time (or more) would kinda railroad Wizard-play into using those few per-encounter spells as much as possible until there's a wider variety. I know I'd be hard-pressed to step away from those one or two per-encounter spells for most of the game.

Freeing up spell casting is still a good towards more fun gameplay.

 

As to druids and priest having way too many abilities, do you remember where they said this? I'm wondering what it is about those abilities that make them seem too numerous to Adam and Josh (Too repetitive? Too many variations? Too powerful? Not enough power? etc)

[KDubya]

 

 

Not necessary. If you wanna play a sorceror type blaster character, that's what cipher is for. Don't turn my wizard into a sorc. I like the difference. It's why I play a wizard, and not a sorc.

I hate to break it to you, but PoE wizards are already D&D sorcerers as is, with the minor caveat that PoE wizards get less known spells per level than D&D sorcerers but have the ability to switch their known spells thanks to the grimoires.

 

In fact, PoE priests and druids are also D&D sorcerers, but with all the advantages (the ability to cast any combination of spells of any level as long as they have the necessary resources) and none of the drawbacks (their spell selection isn't limited).

 

The having to re-purchase all of your spells is a limitation of how the re-leveling works. I don't see how they would fix it unless they somehow flagged your spell picks and did not allow you to pick any spells at all during a re-spec level up.

As someone who doesn't like that wizards can select new spells on level up, I can see a very simple solution to that problem

 

My ideas for wizards :

 

- Make spells per-encounter at an earlier level but graduate their progression. For example, start with one 1st-level spell slot which becomes per-encounter at level 6 and go from there.

- I like the metamagic proposed by the OP.

- I'm absolutely opposed to the idea of making every spell of a certain level known by the wizard available to him once he is high-level enough! Plus, I don't think this is realiitically going to happen, Adam and Josh apparently believe that priests and druids have way too many abilities available for each encounter, this would just create the same thing for wizards.

 

Making per-encounter spells available earlier is a move in the right direction, but making it one slot at a time (or more) would kinda railroad Wizard-play into using those few per-encounter spells as much as possible until there's a wider variety. I know I'd be hard-pressed to step away from those one or two per-encounter spells for most of the game.

Freeing up spell casting is still a good towards more fun gameplay.

 

As to druids and priest having way too many abilities, do you remember where they said this? I'm wondering what it is about those abilities that make them seem too numerous to Adam and Josh (Too repetitive? Too many variations? Too powerful? Not enough power? etc)

 

 

 

In the beginning Ciphers were deemed to be broken due to having enough starting focus that they could bang out a few of their biggest powers or lots of their lower powers at the start of every fight and never need to regenerate focus. Now their starting focus is half of what they had, they get one shot and then need to regenerate focus. They seem fine now, balanced and challenging. Everything they have is per encounter but they need to generate focus in order to use it.

 

If the Cipher model of focus generating  was the only way for everyone to fuel their spells the game would probably be a lot better and a whole lot more balanced. There'd be no power-napping, no need to self restrain letting loose with the big spells, camping would be done when you need to heal up your health or recharge your few per rest abilities and items.

 

Wizards get more powerful spells than a Cipher but are limited to per rest usage. They need to marshal their resources. To assist Wizards in being useful for the small fights and to be the deciding factor in the big fights, they get Arcane Assault at per encounter and implements which with a few talents are the best ranged weapon in the game - dual damage types bypass all immunities, AoE, DR bypass without attack speed malus and the largest damage boost available at +25%.

 

At low levels your Wizard can easily lead the party in damage, even with limiting spell use to only the big fights. At higher levels the sheer number of casts per rest that you have allow for liberal usage of spells. Just using two spells per battle of level four and up would still let you dominate for six or seven fights, which would still be longer than your melee could avoid attrition health loss.

 

If you need to cast more often you can just rest. Even on PotD you still get two camp rests before you need to either find more, buy them at a store or head back to an Inn. For convenience you can even just use console commands and not go through the time of the loading screens. 

 

The complete removal of per encounter lower level spells would still leave Wizards at the top of the power curve even if you try and limit your resting. Power Napping would still be available and allow for complete use of every spell every fight with no downsides at all.

 

The game already allows you to bypass any attempt at restraining or limiting a Wizard's power level with the simple act of resting, why is that not enough?

[Tigranes]

Sorry, no time to read the whole thing, so just call me an idiot if I'm missing the point.

 

The big gist seems to be, though, "wizards aren't very fun a lot of the time because I want to be casting lots of spells all the time, let's make some changes." 

 

I simply disagree with that fundamental premise. I don't find wizards 'more fun' after level 8. (I don't find them less fun, either. As I said in the other thread, I"m not necessarily opposed to the per encs.) 

 

I like the fact that I'm casting a spell every once in a while. I don't want to cast spells all the time non-stop. Why? I want my spellcasting to have be meaningful, powerful, significant. I don't want to spam them like a Diablo 2 sorceress spamming mage bolt. For the same reason that I prefer fighting 10 powerful orcs to 300 orcs. I want each spell or enemy to mean something.

 

I also want to have to think about the spells I use, and what that will mean for the next battle. If everything resets after one battle, it quickly feels pointless. I feel like I"m not a party of adventurers delving into a dangerous dungeon, I feel like they are magically transported to a healing centre after each round. I don't feel like the second battle has anything to do with the first one. 

 

Lastly, this is a party based game. Most people will have 6 people in the party. So there is plenty for ME, the player, to do - even if the wizard is conserving spells, the cipher is collecting focus, etc. 

 

(Now, if you did want to make wizards spell-spamming cannons, OK, that's your opinion. In that case I'd say the whole class would need an overhaul. Just making all spells per enc would lead to all sorts of balance questions. Maybe that would mean developing the grimoire concept so that you really only have 5-6 spells available, total, forcing you to switch grimoires more.)

[Benedictous]

I don't understand, spellcasters are already legit gods. The whole game. Do you want them machine gunning fireballs and ice novas all over the place? O WAIT they can already do that

[Sannom]

As to druids and priest having way too many abilities, do you remember where they said this? I'm wondering what it is about those abilities that make them seem too numerous to Adam and Josh (Too repetitive? Too many variations? Too powerful? Not enough power? etc)

It was in the Pillars of Eternity retrospective panel at Pax.

 

It seems their point was that priests and druids have access to way too many abilities in every single encounter. There are no limitations to the spells they can cast in combat, unlike the wizard who only has access to four spells a level per grimoire.

 

 

The big gist seems to be, though, "wizards aren't very fun a lot of the time because I want to be casting lots of spells all the time, let's make some changes."

That seems to be the OP's point, yes.

[FacesOfMu]

Sorry, no time to read the whole thing, so just call me an idiot if I'm missing the point.

 

The big gist seems to be, though, "wizards aren't very fun a lot of the time because I want to be casting lots of spells all the time, let's make some changes." 

 

I simply disagree with that fundamental premise. I don't find wizards 'more fun' after level 8. (I don't find them less fun, either. As I said in the other thread, I"m not necessarily opposed to the per encs.) 

 

I like the fact that I'm casting a spell every once in a while. I don't want to cast spells all the time non-stop. Why? I want my spellcasting to have be meaningful, powerful, significant. I don't want to spam them like a Diablo 2 sorceress spamming mage bolt. For the same reason that I prefer fighting 10 powerful orcs to 300 orcs. I want each spell or enemy to mean something.

 

I also want to have to think about the spells I use, and what that will mean for the next battle. If everything resets after one battle, it quickly feels pointless. I feel like I"m not a party of adventurers delving into a dangerous dungeon, I feel like they are magically transported to a healing centre after each round. I don't feel like the second battle has anything to do with the first one. 

 

Lastly, this is a party based game. Most people will have 6 people in the party. So there is plenty for ME, the player, to do - even if the wizard is conserving spells, the cipher is collecting focus, etc. 

 

(Now, if you did want to make wizards spell-spamming cannons, OK, that's your opinion. In that case I'd say the whole class would need an overhaul. Just making all spells per enc would lead to all sorts of balance questions. Maybe that would mean developing the grimoire concept so that you really only have 5-6 spells available, total, forcing you to switch grimoires more.)

I agree with you about making the player's activities meaningful. Most things other than an auto-attack should be meaningful, and even then auto-attacking is a fall-back when resources are depleted.

You already know that in challenging fights we select which skills to use based on a good number of variables.

OR we pick some damaging spells and spam them because the spells aren't differentiated enough. This is a problem of spell design, but also that the Wiz could gain more meaningful things to do in combat other than conserving spells for future fights that may not happen (due to resting before hand).

 

You summarised my suggestions to "wizards aren't very fun a lot of the time because I want to be casting lots of spells all the time, let's make some changes.".

When you write that, I feel like the point you want to make is about flaws in my character, motivations, or execution. Is that what you intended, Tigranes?

 

It'd be fairer (and kinder) to sum it as:

- Wizard, Druid and Priest spellcasting just gets more fun for the player after level 8 with casting per encounter. And then even better every two levels. [This is opinion rather than fact, but you can imagine the backlash if they revoked the PE spellcasting for tiers 1, 2, and 3. Part of that hypothetical backlash would because it made an improvement that players agreed with]

- For whatever reason, Druids and Priests get all their spells per tier available. Wizards pick 4 per tier per book.

- Myself and other players never bothered to switch a grimoire in my entire playthrough. I believe this means the Wizard gameplay design wasn't inspiring enough to cause us to want to switch grimoires and therefore experience more of the Wizard spell pool available.

- Wizards have 30% more spells available, but little incentive to switch and use more of them.

 

With this system,

• Wizard players and Wizard managers will have a LOT more fun knowing they can use up all the spells available, and
• will still think as hard about which order to cast the spells to get the most use out of them, and
• will be examining foe weaknesses to figure out which spells will do the most damage and when to cast them, and
• will be delighted to find spell books with better combinations of slots and metamagic enhancements, and
• will have a bit more incentive than they do now to try swapping grimoires and managing a strategic library of powerful spells selected from the large pool given to them.

 

Or if you insist on simplifying further:

"I had an okay time playing Wizard in POE and I can picture a way it could be funner. I've come to the forums to suggest this idea and hear what others think and support their ideas in an open, polite conversation of thoughts and creativity".

Edited September 20, 2015 by FacesOfMu

[KDubya]

Is being limited to four spells per level the issue?

 

I guess I don't see the problem. You pick the sets of spells that best serve your team and play style. My Aloth's grimoire will look a lot different from yours, because my team and my play styles are different. Some spells are just so good that everyone will have them in their grimoire, some are more play style dependent.

 

With PotD not being overly challenging as it is, how will game play be improved if Wizards can spam every spell every battle without concern for saving any for use in the next battle? You can already do this just by resting more.

 

If the new Grimoire makes Wizards more powerful I'd have to say again that at the current balance they are the cat's meow now. If all spells are reduced in power such that the new Grimoire system brings them back to their current power level again what is the point?  If all grimoires are different, one of them will be better than any of the rest. It always works out like that, and once you get that grimoire you are back to the current never change grimoire's again issue.

 

Maybe someone can mod something like what you are looking for? I am not sure what is or is not available via modding with PoE.