Role of fighter?

[KDubya]

 

4.) Move weapon specialty from an ability to a talent

 

Why?

 

I would do the exact opposite: Weapon Mastery (and perhaps even Bonus Knock Down) from talents to abilities.

 

The reason is that most Fighter abilities are defensive or not particularly useful, to the point that I can basically pick the last one or two in my build at random, safe in the knowledge they'll make no difference.

 

Talents, on the other hand, still have a bunch fighting for the last slot when I play Fighters (which is always, pretty much): Bonus Knock Down, Interrupting Blows, Quick Switch, Marksman, Penetrating Shot, Weapon Mastery, any of the defensive ones like Unstoppable etc., or even the the one that improves recovery.

 

 

The reason that I would move weapon specialization to a talent would be to free up a choice to take something else like confident aim, vigorous defense, or into the fray.

 

The fact that most of the abilities are not very useful is a big part of the problem.

 

 

Edit -

 

I agree that Knock down would be missed.

 

Armored Grace is something I always take but math wise it is approximately equal to +11% action speed. Nice but not game changing.

 

The weapon spec and mastery get you +15% and +10% damage. Again I always take them but they don't do anything special and the increases are not large. They don't change how you play or build your character, you just take them for the increased damage. In comparison a Barbarian can take the Blooded? (the one that increases attack speed after you get two kills) ability and actively look for the kill shot, or take One Stands Alone and actively try and be surrounded to get the boost. You change your behavior based on what you pick.

 

Fighters before let you stand in the front and whoop ass. Not as fast or as flashy as others but you could grab a big two hander and still have enough defense to take on the world. Now the requirements to be able to survive at the front precludes a lot of your capacity to dispense damage. I can understand why changes were made but it leaves Fighters in a purgatory between tanking or damaging. Since it won't go back to the way it was give the Fighter the role of disrupter, have him be tactical in his use of knockdowns, pulls (Into the Fray) and dis-engagement attacks (Defender).

Edited September 8, 2015 by KDubya

[Ruminate]

 

And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up? What is the sine qua non of the Fighter?

 

Can't say these are necessarily sine-qua-non, but the abilities I would dearly miss if I played another class are Knock Down, Armored Grace, and the Specialization/Mastery chain. Sundering Blows is also pretty sweet (even though I still have to figure out what the icon is meant to represent.)

 

 

Force of Anguish can knockdown more than twice per encounter. Swift Strikes gives 20% attack speed instead of only recovery. Turning Wheel can give up to 50% multiplicative burn damage as opposed to 25% additive weapon damage.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Ruminate

[Elric Galad]

But if we are talking relative strength, I do believe that Fighters, Rangers, and Chanters are currently the weakest classes right now in PotD, so some minor buffs would be nice I suppose.

 

 

You're not totally right : rangers have been fixed and really seem fine now.

 

I'm playing in PotD and pet and ranger are almost as useful as 1 party member, except they are 2.

 

Pet's infinite health is just so sweet in this difficulty setting and they now do a respectable amount of damages.

 

High level abilities of the ranger herself seem to be very good too with stunning shot, double shot and the longest CC spell of the game (binding roots). For now, she's mostly a caster sniper with an arbalest and wounding shots.

 

I believe that chanters need an important rework about how they scale.

 

My point is, people felt paladins weak so they were buffed. Same for the rangers. Both in a very satisfying way IMHO.

 

Therefore, I'm pretty confident for the fighters.

 

My only current fear for balance is that wizard may get per encounter confusion at level 15. Per encounter spells was a kind of Pandora's box...

Edited September 8, 2015 by Elric Galad

[Pelmaleon]

^  The whole point behind balancing is that something that is trivial for your enjoyment of the game may be very important to someone else. 

 

Also, building new 'fun' talents are sometimes dependent on whether earlier talents in a style or progression are worth taking; defender + wary defender is the most talked about in this thread, but we can also look at weapon spec./ mastery and weapon style as well (which is currently a one off but could be the basis for its own mastery/ talent).  That is sort of the point behind this whole thread, the fact that with tuning to other classes and the nerf to defender, the fighter's role has  become a bit nebulous in party composition.  It seems a good time to make adjustments.

What if my idea of fun is having the Wizard class insanely more powerful than all other classes at higher levels? (I actually do love when games have this power curve). The point is, you cannot please everyone. I do agree with the implicit notion that having tamer, more even power curves will satisfy the largest majority, and mods can please the rest.

 

I agree with the changes they made to Defender. The Fighter was unhittable by most enemies before the change, especially when you buffed him more and debuffed the enemies via spells. Fighter is still the tankiest class if you look at every ability in relation to other abilities of fellow party members (heals/buffs from Priests and Druids), regardless of the cherry picking done in the Paladin vs Fighter debate. But like I said in my initial post, Fighter does seem like it needs some small buff to make it more fun to play (a buff to their crowd control abilities' accuracies which would scale with their might is what I proposed).

[Pelmaleon]

 

I'm playing on PotD and the fighter is fine as is. I spec'd him to be pure tank and he is a wonderful tank. I find it quite silly how people cherry pick SO MANY ABILITIES while discussing the pros/cons of a fighter vs paladin for durability; they just choose not to talk about so many of the amazing fighter ones. Anyway, I accessed the White Marches at level 5 with Monk Main, Eder, Durance, Kana, Hiravias, and Aloth (currently level 7), and while the fights are tough, my fighter still survives very well. The harder the fight, the more spells I have my Priest throw on him.

 

But if we are talking relative strength, I do believe that Fighters, Rangers, and Chanters are currently the weakest classes right now in PotD, so some minor buffs would be nice I suppose.

 

Edit: But seeing as it is not a multiplayer game, it's not the end of the world if they don't get buffs. In all honesty, I'd rather the devs work on creating new, unique, and fun talents/spells/items and add them to the game than balance something that doesn't matter as much regarding the amount of fun had in a single-player game.

 

Edit2: I did want to add that enemies on PotD generally have insanely high fortitude, so it makes the fighter MUCH less fun to use because his crowd control abilities will not work very often. So maybe they should make something that scales the amount of added accuracy of those abilities with the fighter's might. I think that would be a cool feature.

 

 

No one, or at least I'm not, is saying that Fighters are broken, just that they don't have much of a niche.  Also balance is just as important in a single player game as in multiplayer.

 

Eder is going to be used, firstly because he is a great character and secondly because there are only two possible frontline melee story companions to take with you and Pellegrinas stats are a bit wonky while Eder's high might and con are pretty much were you'd choose them to be if you had the choice.

 

In your party you have the main Monk and Eder on the front lines, maybe Kana in plate as another melee, Durance to keep everyone alive and Hirvias and Aloth to blast away from the back. Your Eder's job is to not die, hold the attention of the enemies and any damage done is just gravy, basically a better pet or summon.

 

 If there were no story companions would you choose a fighter, a paladin or another monk to be your second frontline melee?

 

And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up? What is the sine qua non of the Fighter?

 

Kana is currently hanging out in the back so I can make sure he stays alive to get the most invocations for extended fights. To answer your questions, I would probably do a classic party like I had in the Icewind Dale games, Fighter, Paladin (it was another Fighter in Icewind Dale because the Paladins were weak iirc, but the extra heal and auras in this game seem like they would be great to buff up my front-line) Cleric, Rogue, Mage, Cipher/Druid (it was a Ranger in Icewind Dale for more ranged DPS, but the extra crowd control would come in handy for Pillars).

 

"And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up?" I believe Critical Defense, Unbending, Unbroken, and Vigorous Defense all make the fighter extremely difficult to bring down. The biggest problem is that they are very boring to use. I'd rather have a more glass-cannony party with a higher DPS fighter than have an unkillable tank, which my minmax brain tells me to build-up.

 

What is the sine qua non of the Fighter? To fight in the front-lines without being ran over quickly I suppose. It really depends what your party needs though.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Pelmaleon

[Pelmaleon]

 

But if we are talking relative strength, I do believe that Fighters, Rangers, and Chanters are currently the weakest classes right now in PotD, so some minor buffs would be nice I suppose.

 

You're not totally right : rangers have been fixed and really seem fine now.

 

I'm playing in PotD and pet and ranger are almost as useful as 1 party member, except they are 2.

 

Pet's infinite health is just so sweet in this difficulty setting and they now do a respectable amount of damages.

 

High level abilities of the ranger herself seem to be very good too with stunning shot, double shot and the longest CC spell of the game (binding roots). For now, she's mostly a caster sniper with an arbalest and wounding shots.

 

I believe that chanters need an important rework about how they scale.

 

My point is, people felt paladins weak so they were buffed. Same for the rangers. Both in a very satisfying way IMHO.

 

Therefore, I'm pretty confident for the fighters.

 

My only current fear for balance is that wizard may get per encounter confusion at level 15. Per encounter spells was a kind of Pandora's box...

 

I haven't experimented much with Rangers post-patch on PotD so you are probably correct. What level is your party? I would be worried that the pet was still a bit too squishy compared to summons or a tank-spec'd front-line character, and much of the crowd control goes against fortitude which the majority of enemies have extremely high numbers of in PotD.

[Elric Galad]

My party is almost lvl 6 so I have done act I which is said to be very critical, including Raedric Hold.

 

As one of the pet problem was scaling, I have to check it works also at high levels.

 

My pet is a wolf, not bear, I have a Paladin with zealous endurance and Herald shield and I picked the Resilient Companion talent. This information can be interesting to evaluate his defenses.

 

My pet dies about 1/3 in encounters but this is mostly because I often use him as a meat shield (or echopsychic echo anchor). By the time he's dead, the battle is usually almost over. As I said this is a strategy to mitigate party health loss. In difficult battles, I use him as a flanker to keep him alive and he does good damage (8 DR bypass added by the patch).

 

Of course, he is not as resilient as a tank, but this would be totally imbalanced. He's just half of a character after all.

 

By the way, I believe that double shots is also a crazy buff to ranger DPS, especially when compared to rogues.

[curryinahurry]

 

^  The whole point behind balancing is that something that is trivial for your enjoyment of the game may be very important to someone else. 

 

Also, building new 'fun' talents are sometimes dependent on whether earlier talents in a style or progression are worth taking; defender + wary defender is the most talked about in this thread, but we can also look at weapon spec./ mastery and weapon style as well (which is currently a one off but could be the basis for its own mastery/ talent).  That is sort of the point behind this whole thread, the fact that with tuning to other classes and the nerf to defender, the fighter's role has  become a bit nebulous in party composition.  It seems a good time to make adjustments.

What if my idea of fun is having the Wizard class insanely more powerful than all other classes at higher levels? (I actually do love when games have this power curve). The point is, you cannot please everyone. I do agree with the implicit notion that having tamer, more even power curves will satisfy the largest majority, and mods can please the rest.

 

I agree with the changes they made to Defender. The Fighter was unhittable by most enemies before the change, especially when you buffed him more and debuffed the enemies via spells. Fighter is still the tankiest class if you look at every ability in relation to other abilities of fellow party members (heals/buffs from Priests and Druids), regardless of the cherry picking done in the Paladin vs Fighter debate. But like I said in my initial post, Fighter does seem like it needs some small buff to make it more fun to play (a buff to their crowd control abilities' accuracies which would scale with their might is what I proposed).

 

 

The line I highlighted is the point I was making with regards to what Obsidian is likely aiming for with the nerfs and buffs; they are trying to balance the desires of 600,000+ game owners.  Our individual desires aren't particularly important to them unless we are part of a significant and vocal group asking for a change.

 

With regards to the change in Defender, the issue to most asking for an adjustment isn't just that the nerf makes the fighter less appealing as a tank, it's that it removes an aspect of the fighter's core identity.  Now that the fighter is no longer a god mode type defender, there is no 'hook' for the class when compared to others.  I don't really mind the change, but I do agree with others that it strips the fighter of its identity to some degree.  That is why there have been suggestions like making fighters better at disengagement attacks or weapon mastery, as those fit within the theme of the fighter, and also give it class hooks; lockdown defender and martial expert.  When you think of it, it's really no different than giving the Barbarian carnage, Ranger godly range skills, or monks super prowess when attacking unarmed.

 

BTW,  when the beta first came out, disengagement attacks were automatic crits, but the wailing from a group of the IE fans was so loud that Obsidian nerfed it.  No one is asking to go back to that model, but giving the fighters a class based 15% extra damage that bumps to 30% in Defender mode is both a good compensation and thematically appropriate.

Edited September 8, 2015 by curryinahurry

[Killyox]

Tbh I use eder with items that give a lot of skills like armor that gives that druid lightning spell + another that gives crushing waves etc. That + spell scrolls and I got a durable frontline fighter with decent dmg with stuff to do thanks to skill-items + scrolls.

 

They are as good as you make them.

[servantrider]

My party is almost lvl 6 so I have done act I which is said to be very critical, including Raedric Hold.

 

As one of the pet problem was scaling, I have to check it works also at high levels.

 

My pet is a wolf, not bear, I have a Paladin with zealous endurance and Herald shield and I picked the Resilient Companion talent. This information can be interesting to evaluate his defenses.

 

My pet dies about 1/3 in encounters but this is mostly because I often use him as a meat shield (or echopsychic echo anchor). By the time he's dead, the battle is usually almost over. As I said this is a strategy to mitigate party health loss. In difficult battles, I use him as a flanker to keep him alive and he does good damage (8 DR bypass added by the patch).

 

Of course, he is not as resilient as a tank, but this would be totally imbalanced. He's just half of a character after all.

 

By the way, I believe that double shots is also a crazy buff to ranger DPS, especially when compared to rogues.

Pets scale amazing now, have a lvl 13 sagani on PotD and Ituumak hits for 40-70 pretty accurately, and can even hit 100+ on a crit.

[KDubya]

 

 

I'm playing on PotD and the fighter is fine as is. I spec'd him to be pure tank and he is a wonderful tank. I find it quite silly how people cherry pick SO MANY ABILITIES while discussing the pros/cons of a fighter vs paladin for durability; they just choose not to talk about so many of the amazing fighter ones. Anyway, I accessed the White Marches at level 5 with Monk Main, Eder, Durance, Kana, Hiravias, and Aloth (currently level 7), and while the fights are tough, my fighter still survives very well. The harder the fight, the more spells I have my Priest throw on him.

 

But if we are talking relative strength, I do believe that Fighters, Rangers, and Chanters are currently the weakest classes right now in PotD, so some minor buffs would be nice I suppose.

 

Edit: But seeing as it is not a multiplayer game, it's not the end of the world if they don't get buffs. In all honesty, I'd rather the devs work on creating new, unique, and fun talents/spells/items and add them to the game than balance something that doesn't matter as much regarding the amount of fun had in a single-player game.

 

Edit2: I did want to add that enemies on PotD generally have insanely high fortitude, so it makes the fighter MUCH less fun to use because his crowd control abilities will not work very often. So maybe they should make something that scales the amount of added accuracy of those abilities with the fighter's might. I think that would be a cool feature.

 

 

No one, or at least I'm not, is saying that Fighters are broken, just that they don't have much of a niche.  Also balance is just as important in a single player game as in multiplayer.

 

Eder is going to be used, firstly because he is a great character and secondly because there are only two possible frontline melee story companions to take with you and Pellegrinas stats are a bit wonky while Eder's high might and con are pretty much were you'd choose them to be if you had the choice.

 

In your party you have the main Monk and Eder on the front lines, maybe Kana in plate as another melee, Durance to keep everyone alive and Hirvias and Aloth to blast away from the back. Your Eder's job is to not die, hold the attention of the enemies and any damage done is just gravy, basically a better pet or summon.

 

 If there were no story companions would you choose a fighter, a paladin or another monk to be your second frontline melee?

 

And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up? What is the sine qua non of the Fighter?

 

Kana is currently hanging out in the back so I can make sure he stays alive to get the most invocations for extended fights. To answer your questions, I would probably do a classic party like I had in the Icewind Dale games, Fighter, Paladin (it was another Fighter in Icewind Dale because the Paladins were weak iirc, but the extra heal and auras in this game seem like they would be great to buff up my front-line) Cleric, Rogue, Mage, Cipher/Druid (it was a Ranger in Icewind Dale for more ranged DPS, but the extra crowd control would come in handy for Pillars).

 

"And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up?" I believe Critical Defense, Unbending, Unbroken, and Vigorous Defense all make the fighter extremely difficult to bring down. The biggest problem is that they are very boring to use. I'd rather have a more glass-cannony party with a higher DPS fighter than have an unkillable tank, which my minmax brain tells me to build-up.

 

What is the sine qua non of the Fighter? To fight in the front-lines without being ran over quickly I suppose. It really depends what your party needs though.

 

 

 

Unbending at best heals you 50% of your total health over a 15 second period. At level 11 with a 12 con you have 201 endurance. Without Unbending you take 201 points of damage and get KO'd. With it you take 100 points of damage, sounds great but it is only a 100 point heal that is limited to 3 per rest. A Paladin's Lay on Hands heals more, over a shorter period of time, can be used twice per encounter and can be used on anyone. The Barbarians Savage Defiance at level 11 heals base 120 damage over 15 seconds and it scales with Might. Lay on Hands is worlds better and Savage Defiance is at least as good plus is available at level 5. Plus you need a decent intellect for the duration to not be laughable.

 

Unbroken is better than Second Chance in that it gets you defensive buffs after activation but it cost you a level 11 ability instead of an equipment slot. Maybe it useful for Eder in case you want the ring and the two armor sets with second chance to go for other characters but your main character will have first dibs on equipment.

 

Vigorous Defense at +20 to all once per encounter is good but only lasts 15 seconds if your intellect is 10. A Paladin's Reinforcing Exhortation buffs +25, can be used twice, and lasts longer and can't be used on yourself but two Paladins get buff each other and have two left over for others or in case the first wears off. 

 

Critical Defense - I always take it but lets run the math

 

Case #1 accuracy = deflection

0-15 miss

16-50 graze

51-100 hit

 

With nothing you take 0.15*0+0.35*0.5+0.50*1 = 0.675 unit damage

 

With Critical Defense you get 20% crit>hit and 10% hit>graze

 

0-15 miss

16-55 graze

56-100 hit

 

Damage taken is 0.15*0+0.40*.5+0.45*1 = 0.65 damage or 3.8% less damage ..... not real good but maybe it is better with a tougher enemy

 

 

case #2 Accuracy is 50 points higher than your deflection

0-50 hit

51-100 crit

 

With nothing you take 0.50*1+0.50*1.5 = 1.25 unit damage

 

0-5 graze

6-61 hit

61-100 crit

 

damage taken is 0.05*0.5+0.55*1+0.40*1.5 = 0.025+0.55+0.6 = 1.175 unit damage or 6.38% less damage ... still not looking very good.

 

After actually running the math I'd have to say that Critical Defense looks to be pretty damn poor, and here I was always taking it because I thought it made a difference. Superior Deflection at a mere +5 deflection is better

 

 

 

 

Actually my thought now is that Vigorous Defense is the better of the defensive buffs but the duration is short enough that dumping intellect to place in resolve is a good course of action. You'd have +7 deflection all the time and would be -13 deflection for 5.2 seconds each fight which seems like a suitable trade off.

[curryinahurry]

Tbh I use eder with items that give a lot of skills like armor that gives that druid lightning spell + another that gives crushing waves etc. That + spell scrolls and I got a durable frontline fighter with decent dmg with stuff to do thanks to skill-items + scrolls.

 

They are as good as you make them.

 

Yes, I do the same thing, but you can do this with pretty much any class.  I would like to see that fighter get a tweak to make them a bit less generic at this point.  Honestly, I think (hope) that this is just part of the back and forth of developing the classes.  Looking at the development of the Ranger from when the class was first introduced, the Pet has been heavily de-emphasized in favor of better ranged talents. It wouldn't take a whole lot to make fighters a bit sexier (it hardly needs an overhaul) and no one is really asking for abilities that are game breaking.

[Rusknight]

I finished the game at hard level in v1.6 and fighter was quite usefull then with his defence mode. I finished White March now in v2.1 at hard either and fighter doesn't look appealing anymore. My party consists of 2 palladins, 1 figher, 1 wizard, 1 driuid and 1 cleric.  So it's 3 tanks + 3 damage dealers (thanks to spells and crossbows)  what proved to be a good balance between defence and offence without need in rest too often. So as for fighter I just think it can be replaced with another paladin since paladin is a better tank now, can do the same damage as a fighter and even has some usefulll buffs and abilities while fighter is a pure melee character and doesn't even better melee than paladin. I just keep figter (Elder) in my party for role-play reasons since I prefer to play with  companions that has some kind of story rather that with self-made dolls. 

[jsaving]

With regards to the change in Defender, the issue to most asking for an adjustment isn't just that the nerf makes the fighter less appealing as a tank, it's that it removes an aspect of the fighter's core identity.  Now that the fighter is no longer a god mode type defender, there is no 'hook' for the class when compared to others.  I don't really mind the change, but I do agree with others that it strips the fighter of its identity to some degree.  That is why there have been suggestions like making fighters better at disengagement attacks or weapon mastery, as those fit within the theme of the fighter, and also give it class hooks; lockdown defender and martial expert.  When you think of it, it's really no different than giving the Barbarian carnage, Ranger godly range skills, or monks super prowess when attacking unarmed.

 

BTW,  when the beta first came out, disengagement attacks were automatic crits, but the wailing from a group of the IE fans was so loud that Obsidian nerfed it.  No one is asking to go back to that model, but giving the fighters a class based 15% extra damage that bumps to 30% in Defender mode is both a good compensation and thematically appropriate.

 

The fighter has the 4th edition D&D role of defender, and the ruleset is supposed to enable him to be "sticky" so that enemies cannot easily get past him to the backline, at least if he takes the proper selection of feats/talents.  Pre-2.0, the disengagement penalty for running past a fighter were minimal but this defect in the ruleset was concealed by the poor AI which made monsters generally not disengage anyway.  2.0 corrected the poor AI which unfortunately brought the rules defect into sharper focus.  What's needed now is a very significant boost to disengagement damage for the fighter, perhaps coupled with a cripple/hobble effect that would occur upon disengagement. 

[Brimsurfer]

This topic is a waste of time.........Fighters are in good balance now.

 

Seems like its the same user keep posting different replies with different IDs....doesn't even want to read anything that makes sense, just keeps posting what's in his head.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Brimsurfer

[curryinahurry]

@ jsaving

 

Yes, that is what I and several others have been suggesting.  Disengagement attacks in the Beta test versions was very strong (as I stated - auto crit).  They were nerfed as the Beta went on into the release version.  I think we agree it would make sense to find some middle ground for that.  What KDubya suggested in one of his posts was to give a special boost in damage to fighters as part of the Defender Ability.  I would extend that bonus to a basic class ability and have Defender give a further boost to

 

@ Brimsurfer

 

If you don't see a point, why participate?  Others are having a rational, productive discussion. 

[Brimsurfer]

@ jsaving

 

Yes, that is what I and several others have been suggesting.  Disengagement attacks in the Beta test versions was very strong (as I stated - auto crit).  They were nerfed as the Beta went on into the release version.  I think we agree it would make sense to find some middle ground for that.  What KDubya suggested in one of his posts was to give a special boost in damage to fighters as part of the Defender Ability.  I would extend that bonus to a basic class ability and have Defender give a further boost to

 

@ Brimsurfer

 

If you don't see a point, why participate?  Others are having a rational, productive discussion. 

It stopped being productive when OP stopped paying attention to criticism to his baseless arguments.

 

I don't see a point in running this campaign to make fighters OP and so i will participate to resist this change.

 

Fighters are in good place now, they dont need any nerfs or buffs

Edited September 8, 2015 by Brimsurfer

[Darkpriest]

well I think that the upgraded version of the defender should just add a status effect application.

 

When yo try to disengage from a FIGHTER you get a disengagement attack that can apply a knockdown effect. That's it.

[Rusknight]

 

@ jsaving

 

Yes, that is what I and several others have been suggesting.  Disengagement attacks in the Beta test versions was very strong (as I stated - auto crit).  They were nerfed as the Beta went on into the release version.  I think we agree it would make sense to find some middle ground for that.  What KDubya suggested in one of his posts was to give a special boost in damage to fighters as part of the Defender Ability.  I would extend that bonus to a basic class ability and have Defender give a further boost to

 

@ Brimsurfer

 

If you don't see a point, why participate?  Others are having a rational, productive discussion. 

It stopped being productive when OP stopped paying attention to criticism to his baseless arguments.

 

I don't see a point in running this campaign to make fighters OP and so i will participate to resist this change.

 

Fighters are in good place now, they dont need any nerfs or buffs

 

 

Fighters are in a bad place now, cause there is no a single reason to take a fighter in the party now over paladin. Paladin is just a better version of fighter now. I don't have an exact idea how it should be fixed (whether fighters should be buffed or paladins nerfed) but it should be fixed somehow to make fighters usefull and unique again.

[Darkpriest]

 

 

@ jsaving

 

Yes, that is what I and several others have been suggesting.  Disengagement attacks in the Beta test versions was very strong (as I stated - auto crit).  They were nerfed as the Beta went on into the release version.  I think we agree it would make sense to find some middle ground for that.  What KDubya suggested in one of his posts was to give a special boost in damage to fighters as part of the Defender Ability.  I would extend that bonus to a basic class ability and have Defender give a further boost to

 

@ Brimsurfer

 

If you don't see a point, why participate?  Others are having a rational, productive discussion. 

It stopped being productive when OP stopped paying attention to criticism to his baseless arguments.

 

I don't see a point in running this campaign to make fighters OP and so i will participate to resist this change.

 

Fighters are in good place now, they dont need any nerfs or buffs

 

 

Fighters are in a bad place now, cause there is no a single reason to take a fighter in the party now over paladin. Paladin is just a better version of fighter now. I don't have an exact idea how it should be fixed (whether fighters should be buffed or paladins nerfed) but it should be fixed somehow to make fighters usefull and unique again.

 

 

I do not agree with this... Fighter is much better at hitting things and he can also apply front line CC. I have no idea where do people get this idea that paladin outshines fighter... the only thing they might outshine the fighter is at holding the line with their slightly higher defenses... Fighter can both hold the line, and deal reasonable damage with weapons, AND he has front line CC capabilities...

[Elric Galad]

This is not completely true. Paladins are not strictly better at damage dealing and CC. Of course they have a lot of support abilities that makes them overall better.

 

The problem is that Monks are strictly better than fighters at damage dealing and CC while being almost as tanky or maybe more now with iron wheel.

 

There are not enough unique fighter abilities to compensate for this.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Elric Galad

[Rusknight]

 

 

 

@ jsaving

 

Yes, that is what I and several others have been suggesting.  Disengagement attacks in the Beta test versions was very strong (as I stated - auto crit).  They were nerfed as the Beta went on into the release version.  I think we agree it would make sense to find some middle ground for that.  What KDubya suggested in one of his posts was to give a special boost in damage to fighters as part of the Defender Ability.  I would extend that bonus to a basic class ability and have Defender give a further boost to

 

@ Brimsurfer

 

If you don't see a point, why participate?  Others are having a rational, productive discussion. 

It stopped being productive when OP stopped paying attention to criticism to his baseless arguments.

 

I don't see a point in running this campaign to make fighters OP and so i will participate to resist this change.

 

Fighters are in good place now, they dont need any nerfs or buffs

 

 

Fighters are in a bad place now, cause there is no a single reason to take a fighter in the party now over paladin. Paladin is just a better version of fighter now. I don't have an exact idea how it should be fixed (whether fighters should be buffed or paladins nerfed) but it should be fixed somehow to make fighters usefull and unique again.

 

 

I do not agree with this... Fighter is much better at hitting things and he can also apply front line CC. I have no idea where do people get this idea that paladin outshines fighter... the only thing they might outshine the fighter is at holding the line with their slightly higher defenses... Fighter can both hold the line, and deal reasonable damage with weapons, AND he has front line CC capabilities...

 

Fighters and Paladins are almost equal in their pure offence and defence capabillities now both are good tanks and both are not really good damage dealers, but paladin  gets some usefulll unique abilities while figher doesn't have any unique abilities that are usefull enough. So paladin is a better choice for any battle now. As for monks I doubt monk can be a good tank however I didn't use monks much so I can be wrong here.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Rusknight

[View619]

Fighters actually have greater damage potential than Paladins; outfit both for consistent damage and Fighters will come out on top. I've noticed that the argument isn't that Fighters are useless, it's that they are overshadowed by Monks. Reduce a Monk's innate Deflection and maybe Health/Endurance so they aren't as tanky right out of the gate, fix those aspects of a Fighter's kit that should have been changed already (Constant Recovery is supposed to scale now, for example) and give them some bonuses to engagement-based tactics (disengagement attack bonuses that nobody else receives, for example) and they should be fine.

 

Also, strong abilities being per rest isn't really a negative; if anything it shows that some of the per encounter abilities of other classes need to be re-examined. For example, Paladin's having two per-encounter heals that restore more endurance than most Priest spells needs to be re-examined. I would expect their consistent ability to be inspiring the party through the use of auras and actions during combat (kills triggering bonuses, etc), while having a selection of per rest abilities. Maybe Smite and something like Liberating Exhortation should be per encounter.

Edited September 8, 2015 by View619

[Njall]

This is not completely true. Paladins are not strictly better at damage dealing and CC.

Well, as far as CC goes, I agree, even though the fighter's cc is still among the weakest in the game at mid-high levels; OTOH, paladins might not deal a bunch of damage themselves (again, at low levels... at high level, Immolation trumps pretty much anything the fighter can bring to the table, dps-wise) but a paladin has a better opener ( you can use FoD with an arquebus, and you won't even expend a use if you are the first to attack ) and both of his auras can be used offensively, to an extent ( Zealous focus adds straight to accuracy, Zealous endurance allows your party to wear lighter armor and thus attack faster).

The dps gain is harder to quantify because it depends heavily on party composition, but it's there, and frankly, the fighter's personal dps is surely higher, but it's not that higher in the first place.

[Pelmaleon]

 

 

 

I'm playing on PotD and the fighter is fine as is. I spec'd him to be pure tank and he is a wonderful tank. I find it quite silly how people cherry pick SO MANY ABILITIES while discussing the pros/cons of a fighter vs paladin for durability; they just choose not to talk about so many of the amazing fighter ones. Anyway, I accessed the White Marches at level 5 with Monk Main, Eder, Durance, Kana, Hiravias, and Aloth (currently level 7), and while the fights are tough, my fighter still survives very well. The harder the fight, the more spells I have my Priest throw on him.

 

But if we are talking relative strength, I do believe that Fighters, Rangers, and Chanters are currently the weakest classes right now in PotD, so some minor buffs would be nice I suppose.

 

Edit: But seeing as it is not a multiplayer game, it's not the end of the world if they don't get buffs. In all honesty, I'd rather the devs work on creating new, unique, and fun talents/spells/items and add them to the game than balance something that doesn't matter as much regarding the amount of fun had in a single-player game.

 

Edit2: I did want to add that enemies on PotD generally have insanely high fortitude, so it makes the fighter MUCH less fun to use because his crowd control abilities will not work very often. So maybe they should make something that scales the amount of added accuracy of those abilities with the fighter's might. I think that would be a cool feature.

 

 

No one, or at least I'm not, is saying that Fighters are broken, just that they don't have much of a niche.  Also balance is just as important in a single player game as in multiplayer.

 

Eder is going to be used, firstly because he is a great character and secondly because there are only two possible frontline melee story companions to take with you and Pellegrinas stats are a bit wonky while Eder's high might and con are pretty much were you'd choose them to be if you had the choice.

 

In your party you have the main Monk and Eder on the front lines, maybe Kana in plate as another melee, Durance to keep everyone alive and Hirvias and Aloth to blast away from the back. Your Eder's job is to not die, hold the attention of the enemies and any damage done is just gravy, basically a better pet or summon.

 

 If there were no story companions would you choose a fighter, a paladin or another monk to be your second frontline melee?

 

And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up? What is the sine qua non of the Fighter?

 

Kana is currently hanging out in the back so I can make sure he stays alive to get the most invocations for extended fights. To answer your questions, I would probably do a classic party like I had in the Icewind Dale games, Fighter, Paladin (it was another Fighter in Icewind Dale because the Paladins were weak iirc, but the extra heal and auras in this game seem like they would be great to buff up my front-line) Cleric, Rogue, Mage, Cipher/Druid (it was a Ranger in Icewind Dale for more ranged DPS, but the extra crowd control would come in handy for Pillars).

 

"And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up?" I believe Critical Defense, Unbending, Unbroken, and Vigorous Defense all make the fighter extremely difficult to bring down. The biggest problem is that they are very boring to use. I'd rather have a more glass-cannony party with a higher DPS fighter than have an unkillable tank, which my minmax brain tells me to build-up.

 

What is the sine qua non of the Fighter? To fight in the front-lines without being ran over quickly I suppose. It really depends what your party needs though.

 

 

 

Unbending at best heals you 50% of your total health over a 15 second period. At level 11 with a 12 con you have 201 endurance. Without Unbending you take 201 points of damage and get KO'd. With it you take 100 points of damage, sounds great but it is only a 100 point heal that is limited to 3 per rest. A Paladin's Lay on Hands heals more, over a shorter period of time, can be used twice per encounter and can be used on anyone. The Barbarians Savage Defiance at level 11 heals base 120 damage over 15 seconds and it scales with Might. Lay on Hands is worlds better and Savage Defiance is at least as good plus is available at level 5. Plus you need a decent intellect for the duration to not be laughable.

 

Unbroken is better than Second Chance in that it gets you defensive buffs after activation but it cost you a level 11 ability instead of an equipment slot. Maybe it useful for Eder in case you want the ring and the two armor sets with second chance to go for other characters but your main character will have first dibs on equipment.

 

Vigorous Defense at +20 to all once per encounter is good but only lasts 15 seconds if your intellect is 10. A Paladin's Reinforcing Exhortation buffs +25, can be used twice, and lasts longer and can't be used on yourself but two Paladins get buff each other and have two left over for others or in case the first wears off. 

 

Critical Defense - I always take it but lets run the math

 

Case #1 accuracy = deflection

0-15 miss

16-50 graze

51-100 hit

 

With nothing you take 0.15*0+0.35*0.5+0.50*1 = 0.675 unit damage

 

With Critical Defense you get 20% crit>hit and 10% hit>graze

 

0-15 miss

16-55 graze

56-100 hit

 

Damage taken is 0.15*0+0.40*.5+0.45*1 = 0.65 damage or 3.8% less damage ..... not real good but maybe it is better with a tougher enemy

 

 

case #2 Accuracy is 50 points higher than your deflection

0-50 hit

51-100 crit

 

With nothing you take 0.50*1+0.50*1.5 = 1.25 unit damage

 

0-5 graze

6-61 hit

61-100 crit

 

damage taken is 0.05*0.5+0.55*1+0.40*1.5 = 0.025+0.55+0.6 = 1.175 unit damage or 6.38% less damage ... still not looking very good.

 

After actually running the math I'd have to say that Critical Defense looks to be pretty damn poor, and here I was always taking it because I thought it made a difference. Superior Deflection at a mere +5 deflection is better

 

 

 

 

Actually my thought now is that Vigorous Defense is the better of the defensive buffs but the duration is short enough that dumping intellect to place in resolve is a good course of action. You'd have +7 deflection all the time and would be -13 deflection for 5.2 seconds each fight which seems like a suitable trade off.

 

 

Regarding Unbending: I don't see why you are running the numbers with 12 con for the test. Even Eder has 16 base con, which is easy to buff higher with equipment or food for the more demanding encounters. I would also like to add that Unbending is an instant cast while Lay on Hands is average cast, leaving more time for Eder to chug potions while he tanks deadly monster attacks. But again, I still think Paladin is the slightly better (and more fun) overall class, just that the fighter is the better tank in dire situations.

 

While on the subject of Lay of Hands, I really don't like the fact that the priest's heals are so weak. I think it would be an awesome change that if the AOE heal only hit one target or if only one target was injured, then the priest focuses his energies on tending to the wounds of that one friendly character, healing for 50% more.

 

Regarding Critical Defense: I ran the numbers a bit further and it appears that for a 300 endurance fighter (not difficult to achieve at level 12 on Eder), your effective endurance would be 319. So you are deepening your endurance pool by 19 (with those specific numbers), which does sound a bit subpar compared to other level 9 abilities, but can still potentially save you in tough battles. Does anyone know how much accuracy the Adra Dragon has on PotD? I'm still adventuring in the expansion atm.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Pelmaleon