Romance?

[Simna]

Are there any romance in this game?

[Gfted1]

After you defeat the Tarrasque in the Oasis, your love interest is freed.

 

Just kidding. No romance.

[Gromnir]

Are there any romance in this game?

am suspecting that what you mean is that you is curious as to whether or not for poe obsidian added any bioware-style, optional and tangential mini-games with a focus on a sex-me-up resolution.

 

answer: no.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

Are there any romance in this game?

 Sadly no

 

Obsidian intentionally left this out of the game, it was  a mistake IMO as we both know how Romance adds to the overall entertainment factor

 

But on this forum you will find most people don't like Romance or they feel it somehow demeans the overall value of a game ...yes its also a mistaken view but trust me you won't change peoples minds on this forum..." you can't teach an old dog new tricks " and all that 

[Gfted1]

Sadly no

 

Obsidian intentionally left this out of the game, it was  a mistake IMO as we both know how Romance adds to the overall entertainment factor

 

But on this forum you will find most people don't like Romance or they feel it somehow demeans the overall value of a game ...yes its also a mistaken view but trust me you won't change peoples minds on this forum..." you can't teach an old dog new tricks " and all that 

 

 

[Ink Blot]

Who are the 'old dogs' though? Since Romance was in some of the old IE games, perhaps the lack thereof is a 'new trick'.

[BruceVC]

 

Sadly no

 

Obsidian intentionally left this out of the game, it was  a mistake IMO as we both know how Romance adds to the overall entertainment factor

 

But on this forum you will find most people don't like Romance or they feel it somehow demeans the overall value of a game ...yes its also a mistaken view but trust me you won't change peoples minds on this forum..." you can't teach an old dog new tricks " and all that 

 

 

 

 

 

Who are the 'old dogs' though? Since Romance was in some of the old IE games, perhaps the lack thereof is a 'new trick'.

 

Guys its nothing personal but some of the resistance to Romance is just ....irrational 

[Doppelschwert]

Guys its nothing personal but some of the resistance to Romance is just ....irrational 

Ignoring emotions is kind of the definition of being rational.

[BruceVC]

 

Guys its nothing personal but some of the resistance to Romance is just ....irrational 

Ignoring emotions is kind of the definition of being rational.

 

Thats clever....look I never said you anti-Romance types weren't clever, that's part of the issue with the aversion to Romance...some of you guys over-analyze it and expect the equivalent to a Game of Thrones type Romance  in a game with dialogue. Its never going to be that good or sincere 

[Ink Blot]

 

Guys its nothing personal but some of the resistance to Romance is just ....irrational 

 

My personal aversion is quite rational, actually. I've found almost invariably that romance options in games are just awkward, not believable, and generally unsatisfying. Of course, there's always the option to just not bother with them if they're in the game, I understand that. But if it's there, I'll likely follow it to see where it goes, in the (usually vain) hope it will be good. I've yet to be overly impressed. So I'd much rather the time spent writing and developing romances were spent elsewhere.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Guys its nothing personal but some of the resistance to Romance is just ....irrational 

 

My personal aversion is quite rational, actually. I've found almost invariably that romance options in games are just awkward, not believable, and generally unsatisfying. Of course, there's always the option to just not bother with them if they're in the game, I understand that. But if it's there, I'll likely follow it to see where it goes, in the (usually vain) hope it will be good. I've yet to be overly impressed. So I'd much rather the time spent writing and developing romances were spent elsewhere.

 

Its ironic but you have unintentionally highlighted my point ...for many people they base there dislike of Romance on factors that they normally wouldn't judge other fantasy RPG components on. So we now judge Romance on it being " believable or satisfying " 

 

Have you ever said ..."I don't  like the way this dungeon was designed or how this dragon attacked me, it was unsatisfying " 

 

Anyway I am not fighting with you ...I have heard all these reasons. We can happily agree to disagree

[Nakia]

Starting back with the old IE games I found romances detracted from the game instead of adding to it.   Now games try to cater to everyone of every romantic preference and end up being at best weird.  In Skyrim every race and gender can "romance" any race and gender if you care to call it romance.

 

Call me what you wish but I prefer no romance to poorly written ones that have no game play value.  If romances are ever added to the game I hope it will be by DLC and thus be completely optional.

[BruceVC]

In Skyrim every race and gender can "romance" any race and gender if you care to call it romance.

 

 

 Yeah that is actually an ideal Romance implementation ...so you are clearly a Romance iconoclast ..basically a hater 

[Nakia]

 

In Skyrim every race and gender can "romance" any race and gender if you care to call it romance.

 

 

 Yeah that is actually an ideal Romance implementation ...so you are clearly a Romance iconoclast ..basically a hater 

 

I will go even further.    If there are going to be romances for us female types hire a female creative writer over 25 and have her do at least some of the writing.    Better yet hire three women, one under 25, one 25 to 40 and one over 40.  !!!

[BruceVC]

 

 

In Skyrim every race and gender can "romance" any race and gender if you care to call it romance.

 

 

 Yeah that is actually an ideal Romance implementation ...so you are clearly a Romance iconoclast ..basically a hater 

 

I will go even further.    If there are going to be romances for us female types hire a female creative writer over 25 and have her do at least some of the writing.    Better yet hire three women, one under 25, one 25 to 40 and one over 40.  !!!

 

Now you are getting it ...you go girl   

[gkathellar]

 

Guys its nothing personal but some of the resistance to Romance is just ....irrational

Ignoring emotions is kind of the definition of being rational.

That's not actually how rationality works.

 

Emotions provide people with motivations - rationality is the task of addressing one's emotional motives in a way that is self-consistent with what one knows. Without emotions, there isn't even a reason to be rational, much less to be anything else. A person who finds romances in games to be un/pleasant, and therefore does/n't want them to be present in those games is being rational, regardless of whether or not that's an experience anyone else shares.

 

(This post is brought to you by existentialism - it first arrives on the stage, and then you get to decide what to make of it.)

 

tl;dr Spock wasn't logical, he was just a lazy utilitarian.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Guys its nothing personal but some of the resistance to Romance is just ....irrational

Ignoring emotions is kind of the definition of being rational.

That's not actually how rationality works.

 

Emotions provide people with motivations - rationality is the task of addressing one's emotional motives in a way that is self-consistent with what one knows. Without emotions, there isn't even a reason to be rational, much less to be anything else. A person who finds romances in games to be un/pleasant, and therefore does/n't want them to be present in those games is being rational, regardless of whether or not that's an experience anyone else shares.

 

(This post is brought to you by existentialism - it first arrives on the stage, and then you get to decide what to make of it.)

 

tl;dr Spock wasn't logical, he was just a lazy utilitarian.

 

Yes but what if the reasons for not wanting Romance are illogical, this would be irrational 

 

So if you say " I don't like Romance because they are not satisfying or believable  " ......this is illogical because why would you seriously judge the dialogue options of  a fantasy RPG on a level of satisfying or if they are believable ( dont get me wrong I would love to date Viconia in RL but its not going to happen  )? Its a game ....come on guys . Read a good book if you want to judge the dialogue on such a meticulous level Or maybe watch Notting Hill for some good and believable Romance ?

[Cantousent]

Okay, that was a funny post, gk. Goes to show you there's still some entertainment value in these Romance threads, even after hundreds of pages of them for just PoE.

 

I don't like the idea of having three different women in three different age groups writing the romances for women in every computer game. With that line of reasoning, we'll have 10 different women writing for even more variety of age groups. We'll have 50 different women divided by age, ethnicity, and skin color. We'll have to have women who have been divorced and women who are married and women who have never been married. ...And, of course, good luck getting the elvish, dwarvish, orcish etc writers to cover *those* angles! :Cant's tongue in cheek grin icon:

 

The answer to the poor quality of romance writing in games is better romance writing, and that only requires one good writer. After all, both men and women write romantic comedy screenplays, right? And the best ones aren't done by committee. Men can and do enjoy romance elements in other stuff, but nailing it (not an innuendo) in a computer game is tougher, especially since romance is often tertiary at best to both the gameplay mechanics and the premise of most of these games. A really great computer romance would have a story built around the romantic element, but that's out the window because now games must accommodate every possible permutation of romantic involvement. Honest to God, I would rather have one really good transgender romance in a game than a dozen crappy romances across the entire spectrum. It's not that I have any interest or stake in transgender romances, but in the hands of a talented writer, what I have going in (keep your mind out of the gutter) doesn't matter nearly as much as what I find when I arrive.

 

EDIT: forgot the icon.

[Gromnir]

 

 

Guys its nothing personal but some of the resistance to Romance is just ....irrational

Ignoring emotions is kind of the definition of being rational.

That's not actually how rationality works.

 

Emotions provide people with motivations - rationality is the task of addressing one's emotional motives in a way that is self-consistent with what one knows. Without emotions, there isn't even a reason to be rational, much less to be anything else. A person who finds romances in games to be un/pleasant, and therefore does/n't want them to be present in those games is being rational, regardless of whether or not that's an experience anyone else shares.

 

(This post is brought to you by existentialism - it first arrives on the stage, and then you get to decide what to make of it.)

 

tl;dr Spock wasn't logical, he was just a lazy utilitarian.

 

post is, we assume, brought to us by internalism more than existentialism.  in any event,  even adhering to a hume kinda notion o' instrumental rationality,  one may critique the dime-store philosopher if there is no consistent utility function that is resultant from their actual choices and behavior. lord knows we do not wanna lay down and play dead for the weberian zweckrationalität.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nakia]

 Cantousent, I will concede that you make some good points.  I haven't played every RPG there is so there maybe some good romances but of the RPGs I have played there aren't any  especially for women.  I have seen a few mods  that were fairly good even those written by men.    Even in Skyrim I had my Ork Warrior male marry an Ork Warrior female and it worked fairly well until Beth made a patch that broke my game.  But who needs romance when playing an Ork?

[BruceVC]

Okay, that was a funny post, gk. Goes to show you there's still some entertainment value in these Romance threads, even after hundreds of pages of them for just PoE.

 

I don't like the idea of having three different women in three different age groups writing the romances for women in every computer game. With that line of reasoning, we'll have 10 different women writing for even more variety of age groups. We'll have 50 different women divided by age, ethnicity, and skin color. We'll have to have women who have been divorced and women who are married and women who have never been married. ...And, of course, good luck getting the elvish, dwarvish, orcish etc writers to cover *those* angles! :Cant's tongue in cheek grin icon:

 

The answer to the poor quality of romance writing in games is better romance writing, and that only requires one good writer. After all, both men and women write romantic comedy screenplays, right? And the best ones aren't done by committee. Men can and do enjoy romance elements in other stuff, but nailing it (not an innuendo) in a computer game is tougher, especially since romance is often tertiary at best to both the gameplay mechanics and the premise of most of these games. A really great computer romance would have a story built around the romantic element, but that's out the window because now games must accommodate every possible permutation of romantic involvement. Honest to God, I would rather have one really good transgender romance in a game than a dozen crappy romances across the entire spectrum. It's not that I have any interest or stake in transgender romances, but in the hands of a talented writer, what I have going in (keep your mind out of the gutter) doesn't matter nearly as much as what I find when I arrive.

 

EDIT: forgot the icon.

 

Hi Cantie " waves " 

 

You have a really bad habit of vanishing from the forums without saying goodbye ? Please tell us when you are going to go away....we miss you 

 

Cantie do you really think that is the reason you don't like Romance? I'm a psychiatrist in RL and I can guarantee you that's just a defensive mechanism you say that  you have convinced yourself  is the reason. Most people say something similar about Romance because to say the real reason sounds silly...and thats the interesting part of this debate 

 

The main reason people are opposed to Romance is because they think its something incongruous and weird, they feel uncomfortable about the fact there is something that exists in RL that is suddenly part of a fantasy RPG. Add to that the sometimes uncomfortable  perceived connection  that some promancers have towards Romance, for example check the Romance threads on BSN, and this makes people want to distance themselves from it...because suddenly the game has something that crosses a boundary. " How can people care about Romancing some pixel generated person in a game ...get a real life GF or BF " 

 

Think about it my friend....and I won't even charge you for my session because I like you and I don't want you to create false justifications for not liking Romance 

[Strange_Trees]

Okay, I see these topics come and go, and I've thought about it a bit. Now, I'm a bit of a sap at heart; I like romance. I've shipped ships in various fandoms, read trashy novels, written long-winded praises to artists who produce heartwarming fluff fanart, all that jazz.

 

Do I think PoE suffers for not having any romance? Absolutely not. In fact, I think it's better for it.

 

Here's my little beef with romance in video games: it noticeably restricts what the writers can do with the characters. It's not expanding character possibilities, it limits them.

A romance plot isn't something you can tack on at the end of character development and have it done well. Being "romanceable" becomes a key central aspect to that character. The character has to be reasonably likeable, attractive, and somehow emotionally available. Even if it doesn't seem like it, those points determine a huge amount of what you can do with a character, and all the other things that tie a character into the actual story of the game end up taking a backseat. A character can't be old, ugly, at odds with the player, married, entirely not-even-humanoid, or otherwise disinterested. If a game has 6 companions, and 4 of them are romance options, that only gives the developers actual creative freedom with 2 of them. PoE wouldn't have characters like Sagani, Grieving Mother, Durance, or Hiravias, if there had been a major focus on writing 'romanceable' NPCs during development.

 

I've played some Bioware RPGs, and without fail the characters who aren't romance options end up being better written and more interesting. I suspect this isn't really a coincidence. From what I've seen in Bioware fandoms, there's still a lot of shipping outside of the pre-packaged romances, or heavily altering the given ones anyways.

 

Also, character development often gets locked behind the virtual sex-wall. Character story will just hit a point where it wont continue without the romance active. Baldur's Gate 2 had a characters ending depend entirely on whether you slept with them or not. That just irks me.

 

I mean sure, you could tack on 3 lines of dialog, marry an NPC, and have them sit at home dispensing pies while selling things you give them, and call that romance. That's what Skyrim does, but I don't think it's very romantic (Although Saints Row 4 managed to make romances a comedy gold mine. That parody was one of the best things to come out of the ME2 romances)

 

I admit, I get a little annoyed every time I see people lamenting the lack of romance in PoE as some sort of flaw. All in-game romances really boil down to is some pre-written, pre-rendered, developer approved fanfiction. That's it.

 

Since the dawn of fandoms, people have been writing fluffy fanfiction, drawing smutty fanart, and bonding with other fans over it, and I think that's great. And anyone who didn't participate in that aspect of the fandom generally wasn't exposed to it. So whenever I see people whining that "[some character] is awesome I wish you could romance him/her/it/whatever" my passive-aggressive side just wants to tell them to go write their own damn fanfiction instead of expecting developers to do it for them

 

EDIT: Demolished wall-o-text's in favor of readability. Sorry if I'm rambling

Edited July 23, 2015 by Sylph_14

[Zekram Bogg]

Back when I used to write about gaming issues a bit more professionally I wrote up a thing (no lost to the archives of the internet) about gaming romances after Dragon Age 2.

 

The big issue I think with in-game RPG romances often falls into ethics of inclusion versus quantum believability.

 

Or to put it in another way: the devs, when trying to implement romantic options have a player expectation pressure to make them as accessible to all characters of any possible gender/sex orientation, but this can often mean making weirdness with NPCs, especially on a level that tends to erase the theoretical agency of the NPC characters. It's all to easy to make everyone a Shrodinger's Bisexual essentially.

 

Which is immersion breaking in a lot of cases, since theoretically, if you're romancing someone in the real world, they're not a neutral blank slate on their sexual orientation until I run into them with my charming self and convince them that I'm their best romantic interest in the world regardless of whatever sex I may be. When you get the Skyrim situation, where ANYONE is romance-able by ANYONE, then it just turns all the characters into total ciphers (and not the PoE psychic kind). While that path DOES allow for the maximum of player choice in terms of player control, it hurts the characterization quite a bit, in my opinion anyway.

 

This issue is ameliorated in the later Bioware games by having most characters have more romantic agency by not being romantic options depending on the player's sex, so there's a solution to that issue.

 

The other issue that then arrears it's ugly head then becomes about the gamification of romance that inevitably occurs. It always brings some controversy in it too. Because someone always takes offense that all the player has to do is repeat X Action to produce Y result, with Y being romance and/or sex. In the case of literal whoring around this is probably fine - since well, if the player goes to an in-game brothel and pays for sex then well, they usually get what they pay for. But in terms of romance it usually ends up (to use the parlance of our times) "problematic".

 

To avoid that, the devs would need to create a system that seems spontaneous and is otherwise is invisible, even though no matter what, there's going to be some gamification of a romance system behind the scenes. It would have to be based on the player spending a lot of time with an NPC and getting to know them well enough through the time they spend together that romance seems both possible and ideally inevitable with them if you're making conversation (and in PoE's case Disposition) choices that are in tune with their character. It would have to be a subtle thing, and subtlety in games is pretty hard (doable, especially by the fine minds at Obsidian, but hard).

 

Then there are the effects of romance on both character and mechanics. PoE is an especially interesting case if we're talking romance and sex options due to the world events going on in the game, namely the hollowborn.

 

I mean consider a romance scenario where there's a system in place for the PC to romance a couple of their companions as possibilities. If I have, say, a human male PC and I romance say, Pallegina, and we have sex during a camp session or resting at an inn, can she become pregnant?

 

I think at some point it's mentioned that Elves and Humans can't interbreed in PoE, so maybe that doesn't work because she's a Godlike. So maybe instead I have a human female PC and I romance Eder. Can my PC become pregnant then? If I wait 9 months of game time, can I give birth? How does the pregnancy affect my stats in battle? One camp would say there should be no effects because that's problematic, the other camp would say it's unrealistic if there are no mechanical detriments to being a frontline fighter taking hits on my pregnant PC self. Further on, if I give birth, can I die during the birthing process? PoE has a level of magic and tech that seems weird when it comes to pregnancy specifically, and I can't tell if birthing mortality rates would be higher or lower due to it, but the immediate assumption is probably that giving birth is more dangerous in this world than say, in a modern 1st-world country. Then there's the issue of hollowborn. Is my kid going to be hollowborn too? I mean, that's actually kind of cool in a meta way, since it could give me more incentive to try and stop this meta-physical plague haunting the land, but then how does that work, mechanically with all the other systems in the game? And with all of the time passing to allow for the gestation of a pregnancy shouldn't other game events progress while I wait for my kid to be born? I mean, it's not like the bad guys are going to just wait around for me to have my kid, right? - there's a timescale issue here that can be a bit more immersion breaking to consider, and let's not even get into the stuff that's related to just sex in an RPG system featuring character attributes - I really don't think there's a strong FATAL player base here (though I could be wrong on that, who knows?)

 

Ultimately it feels like Obsidian made the right choice to not include Romance in PoE, if only because of all the complications it brings onto every other factor of the game. While I'm one of the folks who thinks romantic subplots can definitely add to an RPG experience, because if nothing else, Romance is often a key fixture of all other fiction out there and RPGs are just another form of fiction (albeit, a highly interactive form), they have to be done so well lest they become huge awkward distractions, and they tend to sow division amongst audiences. It's a much safer bet to simply not include them, in general.

 

That said, if the folks at Obsidian figure out a system for romance they think would work, I'd definitely be down to see how it plays out. I trust them enough that if they felt like they could work through all the myriad issues a PoE romance would bring, they should go for it. Just not at the expense of anything else. I DO think it'd be kind of neat to have a spouse back at the stronghold raising your kid, and that you'd have to hire nannies or something if you wanted to go adventuring with your spouse from then on (or you could both go adventuring and leave the kid on it's own, giving them abandonment issues maybe) and this could be an interesting ending factor and even make the stronghold aspect more interesting (imagine if failing an attack on your stronghold led to enemies killing or kidnapping your child or spouse, that'd certainly make that aspect more involved), but again, it seems like a rather tertiary concern compared to just adding more content and coolness in general.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Zekram Bogg

[Cantousent]

Oh, I'm around all the time, Bruce. I just tend to approve posts more than I make them, but recently I was interested in the modding thread and it got me to posting more again.

 

I don't doubt that some things do creep me out in a natural way. For example, I don't have a problem with homosexuality as an idea, but when I see two men kissing, it does kind of disturb me on some sort of level. Does that make me bigoted? I don't think so. It's an immediate reaction that I don't choose to have. Of course, it's not like I can't get past the reaction and still enjoy the show, like Sense8 or whatnot.

 

However, I don't think that's my reaction to romances in games. After all, I enjoy the odd romantic comedy every now and then. I don't mind romantic elements in action movies. Hell, if anything, I find gratuitous sex scenes more offputting than romance. ...And it's not like I didn't serve overseas in the navy. I don't have any problem with sex. I just think it tends to be unnecessary to progress the story in most cases. We don't tend to see a lot of urination/defecation in movies, and it's even more urgent of a natural act. The reason we don't is that it tends not to progress the central themes of the book, movie, or game.

 

That's how I see it at any rate.

 

On the other hand, I do appreciate the free session. If I ever meet you in real life, I'll buy you a beer (and some great imported cheese) and you can psycho-analyze me. :Cant's crazy grin icon:

 

EDIT: Took my time so I added Bruce's name so as to make this post less confusing.

[BruceVC]

Okay, I see these topics come and go, and I've thought about it a bit. Now, I'm a bit of a sap at heart; I like romance. I've shipped ships in various fandoms, read trashy novels, written long-winded praises to artists who produce heartwarming fluff fanart, all that jazz.

 

Do I think PoE suffers for not having any romance? Absolutely not. In fact, I think it's better for it.

 

Here's my little beef with romance in video games: it noticeably restricts what the writers can do with the characters. It's not expanding character possibilities, it limits them.

A romance plot isn't something you can tack on at the end of character development and have it done well. Being "romanceable" becomes a key central aspect to that character. The character has to be reasonably likeable, attractive, and somehow emotionally available. Even if it doesn't seem like it, those points determine a huge amount of what you can do with a character, and all the other things that tie a character into the actual story of the game end up taking a backseat. A character can't be old, ugly, at odds with the player, married, entirely not-even-humanoid, or otherwise disinterested. If a game has 6 companions, and 4 of them are romance options, that only gives the developers actual creative freedom with 2 of them. PoE wouldn't have characters like Sagani, Grieving Mother, Durance, or Hiravias, if there had been a major focus on writing 'romanceable' NPCs during development.

 

I've played some Bioware RPGs, and without fail the characters who aren't romance options end up being better written and more interesting. I suspect this isn't really a coincidence. From what I've seen in Bioware fandoms, there's still a lot of shipping outside of the pre-packaged romances, or heavily altering the given ones anyways.

 

Also, character development often gets locked behind the virtual sex-wall. Character story will just hit a point where it wont continue without the romance active. Baldur's Gate 2 had a characters ending depend entirely on whether you slept with them or not. That just irks me.

 

I mean sure, you could tack on 3 lines of dialog, marry an NPC, and have them sit at home dispensing pies while selling things you give them, and call that romance. That's what Skyrim does, but I don't think it's very romantic (Although Saints Row 4 managed to make romances a comedy gold mine. That parody was one of the best things to come out of the ME2 romances)

 

I admit, I get a little annoyed every time I see people lamenting the lack of romance in PoE as some sort of flaw. All in-game romances really boil down to is some pre-written, pre-rendered, developer approved fanfiction. That's it.

 

Since the dawn of fandoms, people have been writing fluffy fanfiction, drawing smutty fanart, and bonding with other fans over it, and I think that's great. And anyone who didn't participate in that aspect of the fandom generally wasn't exposed to it. So whenever I see people whining that "[some character] is awesome I wish you could romance him/her/it/whatever" my passive-aggressive side just wants to tell them to go write their own damn fanfiction instead of expecting developers to do it for them

 

EDIT: Demolished wall-o-text's in favor of readability. Sorry if I'm rambling

No you make some good points even if I don't necessarily agree with everything you say 

 

You also seem to be making some spurious justifications for not liking Romance, for example you say "I've played some Bioware RPGs, and without fail the characters who aren't romance options end up being better written and more interesting " ...really? Lets consider this point for a second ....

 

Isabella wasn't an interesting personality in DA2? She was probably the most memorable person ?