Pillars of Eternity races, and what they add to the game

[player1]

I have feeling that many of the races in PoE universe are underused, and that some are in the setting only for the token value.

 

 

Let me explain, starting from positive cases.

 

Orlan:

As Obsidian original creation, there is really a lot of lore regarding orlans and situations were they make sense. The best example of good race use in the game.

 

Pale elves:

Not used much, but where used in the late part of the game they shine.

 

 

Now come the mixed bags.

 

Godlike:

Great add-in to the setting, but cheapened, due to peppering whole game with glittering backer godlike NPCs that do not add anything in the game.

 

In rare cases where godlikes are used in the story, they do shine. Pellegina, then the encounter with one death godlike from Magan Fork (even better if having Pelegina during encounter), etc... Still, it seems game could have done more with them.

 

 

Then negatives.

 

Aumaua:

It is almost like they are not in the game. Even Kana Rua, that is only one significant Aumanua in the whole game, is more defined by his origin country then being Aumaua. He could as well be tall human from far away exotic island land.

 

Boreal Dwarves:

They could as well been human Eskimos. Nuff said...

 

Dwarves and Elves:

No significance of them at all in the game. If they were completely removed from the game and replaced with humans, there would be no impact. As if they were added just for token value.

Edited July 10, 2015 by player1

[NightRevan]

I somewhat agree so far from my play through (though I haven't completed the game yet and haven't been to Twin Elms area yet) but it feels more the only distinctions comes from the areas they come from (say Adyer or Dyrwood etc) with it feeling irrelevant if they are humans, elves or dwarves, they seem to have the same culture, worldview and beliefs (and the total uniformity in worldview and belief options feels a bit odd with no variations I've encountered, no one has a different metaphysical concept of what soul means just the 'ghost in the machine concept, no other gods or afterlife beliefs etc, though given the concept driving that is understandable but creates a lack of diversity and concepts in the setting)

.

 

And I haven't felt anything or gone anywhere that seemed to show a elven, dwarven cultures or bow god-likes are in different races, with Sagani as much as I like her being defined from being a hunter-gatherer who could changed to human and it wouldn't effect anything.

 

Perhaps it does avoid the races risking falling into typical territory but it doesn't really feel like their are different races in the game just human cultures with some looking like elves, dwarves auatuma etc for cosmetic effect (with orlans as you say feeling a bit more to their background but it doesn't feel enough). Maybe it gets better but as yet I have to agree, I don't feel the diversity of races yet (or anything distinct to the races, the could be all humans of that region and it wouldn't change anything from what I'm encountering at the moment).

[Varana]

And I think that it's an interesting take on the subject that the focus is on cultures and not races. That for Kana, hailing from Rauatai is much more important than being Aumaua, is exactly the point.

That strict identity of race and culture is a Fantasy trope that needs to be challenged more often. Culture is not inherent to race. There is absolutely nothing in Dyrwoodan culture that would exclude Dwarves, Elves, Orlans or Aumaua from living there. And yes, there is nothing in Sagani's culture, as far as we can see, that would apply only to Dwarves. And if there are differences between the races, cultures have developed traditions to deal with them, like the Aedyran marriage customs for Elven and Human nobility.

That's not a flaw, that's a conscious decision, and a good one. I hope it stays that way. In respect to races, Fantasy too often relies on the "Planet of Hats" trope. "Dwarves are stubborn and drink beer" - maybe, if they're raised like that. If they're raised as horsemen with an ardent love for flowers, then they will behave like that.

 

Still, having different races brings an additional layer into the world. They aren't as important as in many other instances, but that's not necessary. Fantasy gives us the possibility to add more depth by having more physical diversity than in an all-human world, and why not use that, without making it the main thing around which everything revolves?

 

Where the game has serious shortcomings is with the Godlike. But even there - not because of any intrinsic trait of that "race" but because they tell us things about the cultural role of Godlikes, and then don't deliver.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Varana

[Strange_Trees]

Varana makes a good point. PoE makes an effort to separate the whole race = culture cliche that's fairly common in fantasy. For the most part, the cultural lines are drawn geographically instead. So elves in Aedyr have more in common with Aedyran humans than with elves in Dyrwood. Even early in the game you see a bit of this, with the group hassling Aloth it's noted that the woman is elven, and she's just as riled up as the two human men she's with. He's Aedyran, she's Dyrwoodan, and that they're both elves doesn't bridge that in the slightest.

[NightRevan]

That really isn't what I'm driving at, it's not that races in Dyrwood feel solidarity together against Aedyr and those in that empire, it us there is no distinctions at all beyond the surface, of what essentially different species, no hints of the major events that brought parts of different species together and happily formed these homogeneous whokes much somehow obliterated any apparent distinctions of what would logically be vastly different cultures and beliefs, languages etc, no hint of these distinctions at all. There are no actual layers I've seen much of, there really aren't races in it, they could all ve human and almost nothing would change in the setting apart from the orlans, there us nothing race specific at all. Aloth, Kana and Sagani could all human and it wouldn't change anything about them at all, ut just feels like races literally exist outside the cosmetic level, there is no depth or sense of reality to their presence in this world at all. It feels to just there to give the player race options but otherwise everyone is mostly really human in effect, the races seem largely pointess and illusionary.

[Strange_Trees]

I'm still not quite wrapping my head around what these negatives are supposed to be? You say "everyone is mostly really human in effect" but I'm not sure how to interpret that outside of "the non-human races lack stereotypical non-human exaggerations" or "a culture that could conceivably be formed by humans in the same circumstances isn't fantasy enough".

 

Is being too relatable to humans somehow a flaw? What could be done to make the races less "human in effect" without steering them back towards the traditional fantasy tropes in some way?

[Faerunner]

I'm with Varana and Sylph_14. Too many Medieval European fantasy setting rely on the "planet of hats" trope, where all people of one race or area behave in an overly specific way because they're part of that race. For Tolkien-esque fantasy settings, it's as predictable as clockwork: "Elves are archers and lovers of art, poetry, nature, magic, etc." "Dwarves are stubborn and drink beer." Etc. 

 

In fact, I was talking about this with my boyfriend the other day. He pointed out that most fantasy races are just exaggerations of various parts of human nature. Elves are lovers of art, music, poetry, nature and magic. (The "hippie-dippy" part of human nature.) Dwarves are exaggerations of honor-bound melee warriors and miners, smiths and craftsmen. Halflings are basically wanderlust gypsies. Orcs are basically exaggerations of human's thuggish, brutish impulses. D&D gnomes are basically human's intellectual philosophers, inventors and tinkerers. Remove the "fantasy race" justification and what are they? Just highly stereotypical and exaggerated caricatures of aspects of various human personalities, cultures, occupations and ethnicities.

 

BioWare's Dragon Age series was the first one that made me question "non-humans are all the same because they're inherently similar" by having various races have their own cultures just like humans, but how much individuals within those cultures subscribe or reject it depend on their personal preferences or upbringings just like humans. For example, elves aren't inherently more in-tuned with nature than humans; they're just taught to value it because tree motifs are tied to their lost heritage. (Even then, city elves and Dalish elves are very diffierent culturally.) Dwarves aren't inherently more honor-bound; those who live in the ancient city-kingdom are just taught to value it more, while surface dwarves who weren't raised to value such couldn't care less. Etc.

 

Of course, BioWare undermines it's own message by having most non-human characters closely subscribe to their racial cultures, and then introducing an OMG SO UNEEK companion who's SO DIFFERENT from most other elves/dwarves/Qunari. For example, Sera. OMG she's SO. DIFFERENT. She's "not your typical elf ;)" because she rejects and hates anything "too elfy." Varric? He's a human in a clean-shaven dwarf's body. Iron Bull? He's the opposite of literally every other Qunari shown in the series so far; while they've all been stoic and tight-lipped, he's fun, loud, and boisterous.

 

For how much they bludgeon the audience with "people are people regardless of racial or cultural backgrounds," they sure like to bash us over the head with how UNIQUE a non-human companion is for being "not like" most people of their race. Which is it? A Planet of Hats with a few exceptions, or just people from various cultures who're encouraged to think a certain way but may or may not depending on that individual?

 

I like how Pillars goes the extra mile by having people of various races be people first, not exaggerations of various aspects of human nature. People of different races also have cultural values that are just that, cultural. They were raised to think, feel, and value certain things, and how much they do so depends on where they were born, how they were raised, and how they are as individuals. It's able to explore the difference between "race" and "culture" because it doesn't rely on the tired old Planet of Hats trope, and that's fine with me.

[Nakia]

I also fail to see a problem with the way races are handled in PoE.  When creating your main character or hiring and adventurer which race you pick is important.  All the kith in PoE are humanoid so in my opinion should have things in common as wll as differences.

 

Sagani as a Boreal Dwarf has a very different cultural background from other races.  Not all the races have been fleshed out but it is early days for this game.  Why should everything be spelled out from the start?  I like learning new things as I move forward in the game.  We have a two part expansion coming out and hopefully a sequel.  These will expand the world and shed new light on things.

[Blades of Vanatar]

I'm with Varana and Sylph_14. Too many Medieval European fantasy setting rely on the "planet of hats" trope, where all people of one race or area behave in an overly specific way because they're part of that race. For Tolkien-esque fantasy settings, it's as predictable as clockwork: "Elves are archers and lovers of art, poetry, nature, magic, etc." "Dwarves are stubborn and drink beer." Etc. 

 

In fact, I was talking about this with my boyfriend the other day. He pointed out that most fantasy races are just exaggerations of various parts of human nature. Elves are lovers of art, music, poetry, nature and magic. (The "hippie-dippy" part of human nature.) Dwarves are exaggerations of honor-bound melee warriors and miners, smiths and craftsmen. Halflings are basically wanderlust gypsies. Orcs are basically exaggerations of human's thuggish, brutish impulses. D&D gnomes are basically human's intellectual philosophers, inventors and tinkerers. Remove the "fantasy race" justification and what are they? Just highly stereotypical and exaggerated caricatures of aspects of various human personalities, cultures, occupations and ethnicities.

 

BioWare's Dragon Age series was the first one that made me question "non-humans are all the same because they're inherently similar" by having various races have their own cultures just like humans, but how much individuals within those cultures subscribe or reject it depend on their personal preferences or upbringings just like humans. For example, elves aren't inherently more in-tuned with nature than humans; they're just taught to value it because tree motifs are tied to their lost heritage. (Even then, city elves and Dalish elves are very diffierent culturally.) Dwarves aren't inherently more honor-bound; those who live in the ancient city-kingdom are just taught to value it more, while surface dwarves who weren't raised to value such couldn't care less. Etc.

 

Of course, BioWare undermines it's own message by having most non-human characters closely subscribe to their racial cultures, and then introducing an OMG SO UNEEK companion who's SO DIFFERENT from most other elves/dwarves/Qunari. For example, Sera. OMG she's SO. DIFFERENT. She's "not your typical elf ;)" because she rejects and hates anything "too elfy." Varric? He's a human in a clean-shaven dwarf's body. Iron Bull? He's the opposite of literally every other Qunari shown in the series so far; while they've all been stoic and tight-lipped, he's fun, loud, and boisterous.

 

For how much they bludgeon the audience with "people are people regardless of racial or cultural backgrounds," they sure like to bash us over the head with how UNIQUE a non-human companion is for being "not like" most people of their race. Which is it? A Planet of Hats with a few exceptions, or just people from various cultures who're encouraged to think a certain way but may or may not depending on that individual?

 

I like how Pillars goes the extra mile by having people of various races be people first, not exaggerations of various aspects of human nature. People of different races also have cultural values that are just that, cultural. They were raised to think, feel, and value certain things, and how much they do so depends on where they were born, how they were raised, and how they are as individuals. It's able to explore the difference between "race" and "culture" because it doesn't rely on the tired old Planet of Hats trope, and that's fine with me.

I don't agree. Tolkien's world was vast and diverse. Take a peak at a Middle-Earth Rolemater setting.

[player1]

The problem I see is that most of the races in the game do not add any value to the story.

 

They are all there as "token" races (with few exceptions like Orlans), in the game  to give player something to do in character creator.

You could pretty much replace them with humans and there would be no difference in the story.

 

This is most obvious with drawfes and elves which have almost no separate cultural indemnity, as well as with Aumanua, which are almost non-existent, story wise.

 

 

 

I did not notice the issue at first, until I realized that when I see short bulky characters in the game, that I think of them as short bulky models of humans and not as dwarves. Essentially, I completely forgot that there was a "race" of dwarves in the game, because of game/story perspective they are just humans with different body type.

Edited July 11, 2015 by player1

[NightRevan]

The thing isn't that the races aren't a typical fantasy version of say an elf or dwarf, they could have done something completely different with them, or not had elves and dwarves etc and created could completely different and new races. The problem I get is there are no races, nothing distinct about the races or that distinguishes them at any level besides the visual one, a whole unique species and nothing unique or different.

 

One of the advantages of a fantasy or sci-fi setting if you decide to include fantasy or alien races is you can be creative and bring whole new societies in which have distinctly different and exotic and non-human features you can get into (even if that is extension of human ideas ultimately it still creates vibrant and unique differences in world). Even the smallest touches make you feel you are among a non-human race which is unique and has unique aspects and features. That seems lacking here, as player1 says these are all human cultures in which some people seem inexplicably to occasionally look non-human but otherwise are just the same as all the other humans around them. There hasn't been anything beyond the surface unique to them at all I've come across, the races are superfluous and seem pointless and non-existent, having no reality outside the player creator. It feels like they should be just human cultures which I wouldn't mind (such as the Avadon games, Game of Thrones setting or others) and would be interesting but the races seem token and thrown is as something purely cosmetic.

 

And this contrasts with some non-player races in the game such as ogres, xurips or valthack(? unsure if that us right spelling) the spider humanoids who did seem distinct and in some ways non-human aspects to their culture (or at least were exotic and distinct from the human cultures around them). The main ones just seem human cultures who also all share the same worldview and beliefs as each other essentially.

 

I guess I would have desired more diversity and more of what they did with non-player races brought into the player races, or just gone the all human culture route.

[Fardragon]

Well, I have accused the PoE world of being Generica before! I'm pretty sure the inclusion of "standard" elves and dwarves purely on the grounds that people like them, and in that regard I think it would be fair to accuse Obsidian of excessive caution. Even Dragon Age did more with elves and dwarves, and that is often cited as an example of lowest common denominator writing.

 

Orlans are pretty much slightly hairier gnomes/halfings. It might be nice to have a short race that WASN'T treated as comic relief.

[Varana]

Edit: @NightRevan. I shouldn't be reading TVTropes while posting.

 

Yes, that would have been another way to go.

But for that, I think, the classical fantasy races aren't strange enough. Elves are mostly just long-lived humans with pointy ears and a penchant for archery (plus they're better, if you're Tolkien). There's not enough in this to require a different culture than humans.

So basically, you can have Elves-as-we-know-them, and little justification for them behaving intrinsically different.

Or you can create an Elven hive-mind society with shapeshifting abilities and therefore no concept of individuality - redefining the meaning of "Elves".

(Sorry for the exaggeration.)

Fantasy doesn't tend to do that a lot (it's often only one specific race, and often the evil enemy of all things good and free, that get this treatment). It's much more common in Science Fiction, although I'd love to see it more in Fantasy.

 

Traditionally, the other races just expand on human appearance. In humans, you have skin shades from white-rosé to almost-black on a basically brownish scale, and you have hair colours in a very similar spectrum (plus bright blue and neon pink, if you're Japanese). Fantasy races add some variation in ear shape, beard fashion, body size, teeth, and possibly colouration. What PoE does is to acknowledge that and work with it - there are some differences, but they're not larger than could be expected with humans.

 

Taking the other road and introducing very distinct and culture-defining racial traits, would be too much of an experiment, I suspect. This is, after all, a main-stream fantasy RPG that was specifically marketed as a revival of a series of games in the most traditional setting ever. For that, not following the classic treatment of races probably already counts as innovation, just in a different direction.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Varana

[Fardragon]

If I was creating an original fantasy CRPG, I think I would start with the racial ability. How can I make this race play different to other races in terms of game mechanics? Having done that, I would extrapolate out appearance, behaviour, and culture.

[Sannom]

The main ones just seem human cultures who also all share the same worldview and beliefs as each other essentially.

I think that's pretty much the point. Obsidian wanted to make a game in which the main fantasy races intermingled and created societies together, while adding in a few twists (the fact that they can't breed with each other, for example), the half-orcs equivalent weren't barbarians but a civilization of builders, etc.

 

Orlans are pretty much slightly hairier gnomes/halfings. It might be nice to have a short race that WASN'T treated as comic relief.

Orlans are much closer to Deep Gnomes in my opinion, with their art of warfare and somewhat xenophobic approach to life being born from generations of abuse from the bigger species.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Sannom

[Nakia]

I have been trying to think of a fantasy game I have played other than an Online multiplayer that had unique playable characters.  The TES games of course with Argonians, Khajiits and Orcs.  My avatar is the Halflings from IWD II and she looks quite human.  As I recall the main difference between the playable characters of the BG games was their cultures.  Differences in skin color, ears and size, relative minor things much as real life humans have superficial differences.  

[Varana]

If I was creating an original fantasy CRPG, I think I would start with the racial ability. How can I make this race play different to other races in terms of game mechanics? Having done that, I would extrapolate out appearance, behaviour, and culture.

But why would that race be different in behaviour and culture? Why would that race even have one culture (or a specific set of them), instead of intermingling with others?

That may work if races have lived apart from one another for a long time, or if that racial ability would make them so markedly different that they wouldn't fit into another dominant culture (like aquatic and land-based races).

For most racial abilities found in Fantasy, such a separation wouldn't be necessary. Members of a particular race might be dominant in certain positions or professions - within a larger multiracial culture.

 

Of course, we can find reasons why certain races live isolated and all belong to the same culture(s) or have the same mind set or characteristics. Simply "they're a different race and can see in the dark" isn't a sufficient reason.

[Strange_Trees]

I have been trying to think of a fantasy game I have played other than an Online multiplayer that had unique playable characters.  The TES games of course with Argonians, Khajiits and Orcs.  My avatar is the Halflings from IWD II and she looks quite human.  As I recall the main difference between the playable characters of the BG games was their cultures.  Differences in skin color, ears and size, relative minor things much as real life humans have superficial differences.  

 

The thing I noticed with BG, is for the most part, regardless of race, the PC is culturally human. I can't imagine an elf, dwarf, halfling, or whatever race chosen, when raised by humans, in a fairly isolated human settlement, could be dropped into a city dominated exclusively by other members of their race and fit in at all.

 

I think the rest of this thread is for the most part going in circles. As far as I can tell, OP is just insisting that race should be a major defining trait of a character regardless, and perhaps over, the culture/society that character is from (which I disagree on) and that race should be a defining cultural factor regardless of how or how long multiple races have lived together (also disagree).

[Fardragon]

I have been trying to think of a fantasy game I have played other than an Online multiplayer that had unique playable characters.  The TES games of course with Argonians, Khajiits and Orcs.  My avatar is the Halflings from IWD II and she looks quite human.  As I recall the main difference between the playable characters of the BG games was their cultures.  Differences in skin color, ears and size, relative minor things much as real life humans have superficial differences.  

Dark Sun. Muls. Four handed Thri-kreen. Which is a good example of what I mean by "start from the special ability". 

 

 

Not fantasy, but I like the Mass Effect races. Which is why I am so pissed off that they only ever let you play as a human.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Fardragon

[rheingold]

Case of art mirroring real life perhaps. People are people regardless of race, what does change is culture. Personally I think Obs did a good job with the different races. In skyrim, for example, there was no difference between the different races, except maybe a few snide comments. I don't have a problem with that. What I would have a problem with is if there was no difference between the cultures.

[NightRevan]

 

The main ones just seem human cultures who also all share the same worldview and beliefs as each other essentially.

 

I think that's pretty much the point. Obsidian wanted to make a game in which the main fantasy races intermingled and created societies together, while adding in a few twists (the fact that they can't breed with each other, for example), the half-orcs equivalent weren't barbarians but a civilization of builders, etc.

 

Orlans are pretty much slightly hairier gnomes/halfings. It might be nice to have a short race that WASN'T treated as comic relief.

 

Orlans are much closer to Deep Gnomes in my opinion, with their art of warfare and somewhat xenophobic approach to life being born from generations of abuse from the bigger species.

Which unfortunately has me thinking again what is the point of the player (the non-player a much better in this regard) races at all apart from character creator? They are non-existent past the surface, they are all human essentially without anything hinting at the lives of different species or of a mass culture formed off them. The cultures are essentially human outside (to an extent) orlans with nothing distinguishing elf, dwarf etc from humans around them at any level.

 

I guess I don't see the point, why are they there at all when they really aren't if you see what I mean, since the cultures are essentially human why not just be all human then having some of the human cultures looking non-human but it being purely cosmetic and meaningless, non-existent beyond the surface, they are functionally human, in every way like the humans around them besides appearance. It seems just a waste and pointless.

 

If that is the idea, just make them different human cultures, which they are essentially anyway.

Edited July 11, 2015 by NightRevan

[Varana]

But there's no necessity to make them all human.

Why they're in the game, I think: First, it's tradition. Different races including Elves and Dwarves are a staple of classical fantasy. People would complain if there weren't several races, regardless of how small their differences are.

And second, it provides opportunities for some diversity in abilities. If they're more based on physical attributes (like Moon Godlike's healing powers), it's easier to explain them by being racial instead of cultural. The developers get more freedom with abilities that way.

[Fardragon]

Case of art mirroring real life perhaps. People are people regardless of race, what does change is culture. Personally I think Obs did a good job with the different races. In skyrim, for example, there was no difference between the different races, except maybe a few snide comments. I don't have a problem with that. What I would have a problem with is if there was no difference between the cultures.

People are people because they are all homo sapiens sapiens. If homo neanderthalis hadn't died out around 40000 years ago and homo floresienis 12000 years ago we might have a better understanding of how different "people" can be.

[Nakia]

If I could make a fantasy game the race I would drop would be humans.

[Faerunner]

 

I don't agree. Tolkien's world was vast and diverse. Take a peak at a Middle-Earth Rolemater setting.

 

 

I said "Tolkien-esque," not Tolkien himself.

 

 

The problem I see is that most of the races in the game do not add any value to the story.

 

They are all there as "token" races (with few exceptions like Orlans), in the game  to give player something to do in character creator.

You could pretty much replace them with humans and there would be no difference in the story.

 

This is most obvious with drawfes and elves which have almost no separate cultural indemnity, as well as with Aumanua, which are almost non-existent, story wise.

 

 

 

I did not notice the issue at first, until I realized that when I see short bulky characters in the game, that I think of them as short bulky models of humans and not as dwarves. Essentially, I completely forgot that there was a "race" of dwarves in the game, because of game/story perspective they are just humans with different body type.

 

Oh I see, you're one of those types. You're not wiling to use any creativity, imagination, or role-playing yourself; you want to sit back and watch the game do it all for you. If characters don't constantly remind you that your character is aumaua or dwarven, you'll forget and blame the game for the race choice being meaningless because you wouldn't exert the effort to make meaning out of it yourself.

 

Last I checked, the protagonist is fairly "blank" regardless of gender, race, class, or background. Characters don't treat you too differently if you're female verses male either, but are you going to start talking about how gender selection is shallow and pointless, or how a female protagonist is "just male with a different body type" just because characters don't constantly treat you differently for being female? Are you going to start talking about how we should just get rid of gender selection "because of game/story perspective they are just males with different body type," even though that small difference makes all the difference in the world for a player who wants to play a character that is that gender?

 

From a "story perspective": You're a newcomer to the area who discovers there's a problem and you investigate and solve it, regardless of your gender, race, class, and background. Since you're not a local and everyone you meet is a stranger, no one feels very invested in your gender/race/class and so they don't make a huge deal about it. The extended CC exists so player can make a character they like/identify with, and use their imaginations (I know that's a challenging concept) to imagine how their character's gender/race/class/background affects who they are, how they see the world, and how they decide to solve quests and missions.

 

Maybe the problem isn't the game. Maybe in your mind, "human = default, non-human = deviation from the default. Since I decided to play a non-human, I'm deviating from the default and so characters should always react (or treat my character) differently. If they aren't treating me differently for being a non-human, that means they're treating me like a human and thus the different race is pointless," when the reality is they just treat you like a newcomer regardless of your physical characteristics, and physical characteristics are not a huge deal in this world anyway since (from a story/setting/lore perspective) the different races have co-existed and built societies and cultures together for thousands of years.

 

Just because you didn't find meaning in playing a non-human (because the game didn't spoon-feed it for you) doesn't mean no one else did.