Dex, DPS, tanking and PoTD

[Torm51]

So I rolled at a tank that did not have a negative in Dex this time around.  My last one Dex was his dump stat and he did his job as an immovable object.  This guy was overall more balanced. with no negatives in Dex. He should technically DPS better no? But as the example below states it didn't matter as I feel like if you have equipped a one hander It just doesn't punch through DT like it should unless you have offensive talents (like vulnerable attack) which most tanks don't spec or a high accuracy class.  The only thing he did better was kill soft targets faster.  Which my rusty old 3 Dex did as well.  Just slower.  Is there any point in dumping dex as a defensive tank?  Does a defensively specced tank have any hope of punching through High DT? He is likely using a hatchet or some type of one hander.  If you switch to a single weapon you will not have the defense and get worn down on POTD.

 

Last night my trial of iron ended cause I walked into the leaden key meeting with my party by mistake (haha!).  I had bad positioning and my most of softess got chewed up.  It was just me and Eder and we just couldn't kill the Plate wearers in there (we did kill all the softees).  Funny thing is they could not kill us.  I went to take a shower and came back 15 minutes later and we were still hacking away at each other.  I just exiting the game and counted it as a loss.  I didn't prepare properly by bringing scrolls.  Point is this tank had supposedly had better "DPS" with 10 Dex yet did the SAME job my rust bucket 3 Dex guy did.  Why not have the stats into more deflection at that point?  I just hate stat dumping.

 

Regards,

 

Torm

[NerdCommando]

1. 18 dex, 18 per tank has ungodly reflexes - you can cast lots of dangerous spells over the head of such tank without really putting him into danger. Antipathetic field is probably the best choice here.

 

2. 18 dex, 18 per give you frequent attacks with strong interrupt chance - give such tank either Mosquito or Shatterstar (two very strong interrupting 1-handed weapons, Mosquito is the stronger one) and he'll slow down its target considerably.

 

3. High dex is good if you give your hearth orlan tank a Cladhaliath, Starcaller or Godansthunyr - those weapons apply long stun on a crit. More hits - more potential crits.

 

4. For tanky monk, high dex is good if you want to use Aattuuk with your 9th level passive - each crit of yours applies weakness and, well, Aattuuk (or Reghar Konnek) is good at converting hits into crits.

[Torm51]

That's good advice definitely. thing is as Paladin losing a lot of Resolve sucks as you lose a butt load of deflection.  You would have to dump something to get high Dex, Res and Per.  I guess you could dump Con (I would leave it at 10 and grab Might for the saves and LoH heals) but fort saves are awesome and Weapon and shield talent more then makes up for low Dex as it gives you super Reflex saves with the more Deflection your shield has.  But yes you are interrupting that's true.  Maybe that's what he was better at just in the given situation it didn't matter.

[Raven Darkholme]

1. 18 dex, 18 per tank has ungodly reflexes - you can cast lots of dangerous spells over the head of such tank without really putting him into danger. Antipathetic field is probably the best choice here.2. 18 dex, 18 per give you frequent attacks with strong interrupt chance - give such tank either Mosquito or Shatterstar (two very strong interrupting 1-handed weapons, Mosquito is the stronger one) and he'll slow down its target considerably.3. High dex is good if you give your hearth orlan tank a Cladhaliath, Starcaller or Godansthunyr - those weapons apply long stun on a crit. More hits - more potential crits.4. For tanky monk, high dex is good if you want to use Aattuuk with your 9th level passive - each crit of yours applies weakness and, well, Aattuuk (or Reghar Konnek) is good at converting hits into crits.

The hammer is a lot of fun on hogh dex pally. I even go for 14 dex. You lose 1 point in per and res each and two points in ST, but I wekt with goldpact and got Gift + sacrificed Eder. *evil grin*

[Torm51]

so what is the answer here? I guess not dumping dex and being a rust bucket has some benefits?

[Torm51]

Something like (Coastal Aumua..I like them lol and I like the Racial for tanks)

 

Might 12

 

Con 10

 

Dex 14 (if you go Deadfire Archipelago)

 

Per 16

 

Int 10

 

Res 16

[NerdCommando]

There's no single right answer here. You can take your tank in a number of directions, it's really about the synergy with the rest of your party. Paladin, though, will probably want to skip on the dex simply because he's interested in way too many stats already.

[Torm51]

There's no single right answer here. You can take your tank in a number of directions, it's really about the synergy with the rest of your party. Paladin, though, will probably want to skip on the dex simply because he's interested in way too many stats already.

 

Yep that was my thought process.  As skip do you mean dump it completely or leave it at 10? I know there isn't a correct answer but I am curious as what you would do.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Torm51

[Psychevore]

Current fighter, top damage dealer in the party so far. Other classes are Rogue, Ranger, Wizard, Druid and Priest (which should say something)

 

Only just acquired Sura's Supper Plate here, so the damage output is going to be even higher from here on. Though I kinda bought BG1&2 enhanced edition so I'm probably not gonna finish.

 

Anyway, PotD, expert mode, trial of iron fighter, and the 2nd highest damage outputter for comparison.

 

 

 

 

Base stats:

19/8/18/6/8/19

 

Using Saint's War Armor btw, and will to the end, so the 8 con doesn't really matter.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Psychevore

[NerdCommando]

Yep that was my thought process.  As skip do you mean dump it completely or leave it at 10? I know there isn't a correct answer but I am curious as what you would do.

I prefer min-maxing in PoE so for me skipping is leaving it as low as possible.

[Torm51]

I think a fighter Tank is more capable of offense. His natural accuracy is higher and you get confident aim. Even with Zealous Focus fighter accuracy is better. I think if a Paladin wants to deal damage he needs to go all out. All offensive talents and a 2hander get rid of even the buckler. Maybe I'm wrong but I've beaten trial of iron a few times (on hard I know soft) and that's what I see. As a tank I think with end game Faith and Conviction he's the best tank. But it's a pure defense meat shield. You could argue the fighter I know. As a Paladin you just want too many stats. It's either offense or defense. Again maybe I'm wrong.

[MadDemiurg]

Fighter is indeed better on offense, Paladin's offensive abilities are just too limited, 2/enc FoD doesn't cut it. I wouldn't put any points into dex on a paladin unless soloing (when soloing it doesn't matter that your dps is subpar compared to class x since it's the only dps you have). Dex is also kinda useful for buff speed, but with 1.06 exhortation recovery removal this is is quite moot.

[Torm51]

Fighter is indeed better on offense, Paladin's offensive abilities are just too limited, 2/enc FoD doesn't cut it. I wouldn't put any points into dex on a paladin unless soloing (when soloing it doesn't matter that your dps is subpar compared to class x since it's the only dps you have). Dex is also kinda useful for buff speed, but with 1.06 exhortation recovery removal this is is quite moot.

 

 

Agreed.  Granted its a Leader class and has a lot of good support abilities so I get not having offense like a Fighter.  On the 1.06 patch I have it.  I don't quite understand what the buff was.  When I cast on Exhortation I still have to wait on the recover time.  Is it because ACTION SPEED no longer matters with those spells?  I think that's it.

 

Mad you are a big time hard liner so I like your advice (Everonyes is welcome obviously lol).  You really think there is little value in having a high dex tank that interrupts a lot? I think I know where you are coming from in that there is very limited amount of enemies in the game that warrant being interrupted.  Also mages are usually in the rear of the enemy formation at the start of the fight.  You wont be able to run over fast enough and you will take 10 disengagement hits before you get there.  I guess a Chargadin could make it work.  A guy that runs a lot of disengagement defense with Zealous Charge.  Seems a bit limited and gimmicky though.

[MadDemiurg]

In my experience interruption is too wonky to rely on it and it mostly delays the enemies from using their abilities, not prevents it. It is not that bad if you can afford it, but in case of paladin you get more value from other stats (and you still interrupt well with low dex, just not that often). There are much better ways for taking out enemy mages in a party than charging to them and hoping for an interrupt.

 

In 1.06 exhortations have no recovery (the grey bar above your character if you're playing without expert mode, that shows up after most actions). Obviously it still takes some time to cast them (and this time is affected by DEX) but generally you spam them fast enough even in heaviest armor (since they have no recovery armor recovery penalty doesn't matter).

 

DEX is still important for reflex, but if you go max PER and W&S style you can dump it.

 

You can also try to make a dps paladin build with DEX, but it would be suboptimal in this role.

[Torm51]

Right as a tank I am definitely getting max per or damn close (17) so I usually have after W and S style a lot of reflex.  Just being slow is blah sometimes lol

[KDubya]

Have you tried dumping intellect instead of dex? Does the new increased base radius for auras cover the frontline with only a 3 intellect? You'd be sacrificing the coverage of your backline but everything has a cost.

[srlapo]

I found that chanters make the best immovable objects for this game. Their chanting abilities are on a timer, not tied to dex, letting you dump that stat. And at higher level they set their foes on fire just by invading their personal space, so their damage isn't tied to dex or accuracy. What more can you ask?

As for high dex tanks, if you are planning on using heavy armor then your attack rate will be slow anyway, at least compared to the rest of the team. You are better off with a riposte/retaliate build than with high dex.

[Torm51]

Have you tried dumping intellect instead of dex? Does the new increased base radius for auras cover the frontline with only a 3 intellect? You'd be sacrificing the coverage of your backline but everything has a cost.

 

 

I know man I know.  And you are right.  I just cant bring myself to make a super dumb character.  I know hes not actually DUMB in the game..lol.

 

I am a frustrated RPG gamer as I want great results (Min/Maxer) but like SOME RP.  These don't mix usually.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

Have you tried dumping intellect instead of dex? Does the new increased base radius for auras cover the frontline with only a 3 intellect? You'd be sacrificing the coverage of your backline but everything has a cost.

 

 

I know man I know.  And you are right.  I just cant bring myself to make a super dumb character.  I know hes not actually DUMB in the game..lol.

 

I am a frustrated RPG gamer as I want great results (Min/Maxer) but like SOME RP.  These don't mix usually.

 

Just split your points between dex and IN then, so none of them are dumped, like 8 each or something.

 

[Torm51]

Hah that's what I did!

[MadDemiurg]

If you're making a pure tank paladin 3 INT is the way to go. I'd dump both INT and DEX and max everything else. However, aura radius is not the only concern when dumping INT as your exhortations are going to be quite bad with no INT and they're quite powerful in 1.06. So for support pally dumping INT is a no go.

[Torm51]

Ya I just dumped dex for that reason

[Psychevore]

Look, if you wanna go DPS, you need dex. Look at my fighter compared to the rest of the party, consisting of 5 glass cannons also maxed out on might and dex:

 

 

 

You need the dex to outpace all of them

[MadDemiurg]

All these "damage done" pics people like to post mean very little, cause there are tons of variables influencing them.

 

• Very biased depending on your micro and tactics used. If you use a Cipher as a CC bot he won't be top dps for instance. The character you micro more will perform better.
• Main char always has level advantage over mercs and better optimization advantage over story NPCs
• In case of per rest classes, also depends on how often you rest and obviously what spells you use
• Melee dps is like 1.5 times better than ranged dps provided you can keep dealing damage, so comparing them is a bit pointless, you pick ranged because of positioning and focusing advantages
• Obviously also depends on player's skill with each class

Overall neither Fighter nor Paladin have abilities to be the top dps. Fighter is better, but he's nowhere near the heavy hitter category.

Edited June 20, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Psychevore]

Sura's Supper Plate is the reason.