questions about some utility talents

[ohako]

man do I not know what to take as talents for my team. So far I'm focused on Accuracy, so my Barb has 

 

Weapon Focus Adventurer

Accurate Carnage

 

So fine.

 

Question #1: Arms Bearer on a Barbarian

 

My Barbarian is rocking a pair of flails for low DR opponents, and an Estoc for high DR opponents (picked up magic versions of both in the Temple of Eothas woot). I've got a Fine Warbow hanging around. Is there a reason to take Arms Bearer for bad guys I can't get into melee with?

 

Question #2: Fast Runner on a Barbarian

 

Does this actually make a character move faster? I put Fast Runner on my Barb and left Eder alone (he picked up Quick Switch to be more effective after shooting an Accurate Disappointer), and had them run around in the woods. My Barb didn't seem that much faster. Does Fast Runner do anything useful?

 

Question #3: Quick Switch on a Wizard

 

So since Eder came bundled with Weapon Focus Ruffian, he's been rocking by shooting someone at the outset (Accurate on the Disappointer gets rid of its Terrible enchantment, which is great), and then switching to a sabre and shield for tanking. That seems like a reasonable thing to do. I'm less sure about Quick Switch on Aloth. Is 4 spells per grimoire level not enough?

[MunoValente]

The reason I like arms bearer is to put different slaying/elemental enchantments on different weapons.  Room full of humans kith slaying/lightning, room full of ghosts spirit slaying/fire and then maybe something like beast/corrode for when you're in the wilds.

[RtrnofdMax]

Question #2: Fast Runner on a Barbarian

 

Does this actually make a character move faster? I put Fast Runner on my Barb and left Eder alone (he picked up Quick Switch to be more effective after shooting an Accurate Disappointer), and had them run around in the woods. My Barb didn't seem that much faster. Does Fast Runner do anything useful?

 

It works, but only in combat. Otherwise it would be super annoying when moving your party in formation. Boots of speed are annoying for this reason because they increase speed in and out of combat. For a Barbarian, I don't see the value, unless you plan on having them get to the back ranks of the enemy formation. This probably isn't a good idea since Barbs are good for melee AoE and want to fight against (if not on) the front line. Fast Runner is great for builds that require running away, and in that scenario you should find that enemies that previously always caught you will now trail behind you in a straight line race.

[EphemeralToast]

The only reason to take Arms Bearer is if you think you'll be using 3 different weapons in *the same engagement* really commonly, like a gun rogue with Quick Switch. Otherwise you're not accomplishing anything that couldn't be done by simply scouting out the encounter ahead and manually changing a weapon set out for something in your inventory before you engage.

 

My Barb keeps a Pike and a Staff with different element enchants in his two weapon slots because sometimes switching from pierce to crush or fire to shock is useful in a melee with various enemy types. But he keeps Persistence in his inventory because he's not specced for ranged. The rare times I see something coming up that I know I prefer to fight from range with all party members (like charm shrooms), the bow comes out of inventory before the fight. Talent saved.

[Manty5]

Ah, a Kind Wayfarer Greatsword paladin with two rifles strapped to her back for when something, somewhere must absolutly die right now from a flaming bullet of devotion.

 

But a barb shouldn't have much need for a ranged weapon.  A REACH weapon, sure.  But not a ranged one.

 

Try replacing those flails with a quarterstaff.  That way you still have a way to damage versus those weak to blunt, and you have a way to reach people you want to hurt.

 

Talents are too scarce to waste them on an edge case like being able to only hit with a range weapon.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Manty5

[Crucis]

The only reason to take Arms Bearer is if you think you'll be using 3 different weapons in *the same engagement* really commonly, like a gun rogue with Quick Switch. Otherwise you're not accomplishing anything that couldn't be done by simply scouting out the encounter ahead and manually changing a weapon set out for something in your inventory before you engage.

 

My Barb keeps a Pike and a Staff with different element enchants in his two weapon slots because sometimes switching from pierce to crush or fire to shock is useful in a melee with various enemy types. But he keeps Persistence in his inventory because he's not specced for ranged. The rare times I see something coming up that I know I prefer to fight from range with all party members (like charm shrooms), the bow comes out of inventory before the fight. Talent saved.

 

Honestly, I have to find a reason to NOT take Arms Bearer rather than a reason TO take it.  IMO, it's exceptionally valuable to be able to carry three weapons, even on front liners.  Of course, part of this is my personal play style wherein I have EVERY member of the party armed with a ranged weapon, because I never blindly charge into the enemy.  I hold my position and have the entire party fire a valley of ranged fire into the enemy as they charge into me.  Then my front liners switch to melee weapons, while the back liners do whatever they will be doing. 

 

My normal front liners usually carry a ranged weapon (usually a gun or xbow/arbalest ... a slow loading, high damage weapon, since they're only like to take a single shot in most engagements), and two melee weapons covering different damage types.

 

My ranged rogue tends to carry a high damage, slow reloading weapon for the opening salvo, a faster firing warbow for the rest of the battle, and a melee weapon, just to be on the safe side.

 

 

 

EDIT:  I view Arms Bearer as so valuable that it greatly increases the value of using an Island Aumaua on certain builds, because I see getting Arms Bearer as effectively a free Talent above and beyond the normal 6 that you'll get throughout the game (assuming of course that you reach level 12).  Arguably, Wood Elves are somewhat similar to this insofar as their range advantage is like getting the Marksman talent (but on steroids) for free.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Crucis

[EphemeralToast]

Honestly, I have to find a reason to NOT take Arms Bearer rather than a reason TO take it.  IMO, it's exceptionally valuable to be able to carry three weapons, even on front liners.  Of course, part of this is my personal play style wherein I have EVERY member of the party armed with a ranged weapon, because I never blindly charge into the enemy.  I hold my position and have the entire party fire a valley of ranged fire into the enemy as they charge into me.  Then my front liners switch to melee weapons, while the back liners do whatever they will be doing. 

 

I don't run in blindly either--as noted, I scout! My stealthiest party member goes in to check things out.

 

Nothing wrong with your strategy and I'm sure it works for whatever class combos are in your party but the question was specifically about a Barbarian, the dude who wants to be in melee range pronto because Carnage doesn't work at range. I'd consider it a waste to spend a precious talent on something he'll be doing 10% of the time or less (plinking with a bow) when I could spend it on something he'll be doing 90% of the time (beat-sticking). OP's Barb also has Fast Running, apparently, which means he'll be able to get into melee range even faster for that sweet Accurate Carnage. Seems a shame to have him hanging back instead of racing in to wreck faces with that combo.

[Crucis]

 

Honestly, I have to find a reason to NOT take Arms Bearer rather than a reason TO take it.  IMO, it's exceptionally valuable to be able to carry three weapons, even on front liners.  Of course, part of this is my personal play style wherein I have EVERY member of the party armed with a ranged weapon, because I never blindly charge into the enemy.  I hold my position and have the entire party fire a valley of ranged fire into the enemy as they charge into me.  Then my front liners switch to melee weapons, while the back liners do whatever they will be doing. 

 

I don't run in blindly either--as noted, I scout! My stealthiest party member goes in to check things out.

 

Nothing wrong with your strategy and I'm sure it works for whatever class combos are in your party but the question was specifically about a Barbarian, the dude who wants to be in melee range pronto because Carnage doesn't work at range. I'd consider it a waste to spend a precious talent on something he'll be doing 10% of the time or less (plinking with a bow) when I could spend it on something he'll be doing 90% of the time (beat-sticking). OP's Barb also has Fast Running, apparently, which means he'll be able to get into melee range even faster for that sweet Accurate Carnage. Seems a shame to have him hanging back instead of racing in to wreck faces with that combo.

 

 

Toast, honestly even if I had a Barb, I'd still use a ranged weapon.  It's just my combat style.  Let them come to me, rather than me go to them.  I like dropping a priest Seal spell in front of my party and use that full party volley on the first enemy I see (preferably a spell caster if at all possible).  Also, for a frontliner like a barbarian, I'd use a gun, xbow, or arbalest for the maximum damage.  As for the cost, I guess that it doesn't bother me, because I feel that it's very well worth it.  But others may not see it as I do.

 

Also, I shouldn't have said "blindly" charge into battle.  I really meant to say just charge into battle.  I honestly and truly believe that the best combat strat in this game as well as the IE games is to force the enemy to come to you and not you going to them, because A) you can get off a good solid ranged volley during the time they're coming to you, and B) you can hold a solid combat formation, rather than allow different movement speeds and other random pathfinding issues to spread your party out into an uncontrollable mess.  I like well managed, tightly controlled battle formations, not crazy azz wild-eyes berzerker charges.  It's probably why I don't like the barbarian class in general because I see them as something I can't bring myself to role play, an unintelligent, uncontrolled, wild combat style, rather than a well-managed, disciplined, and intelligent style of combat.  I see barbarians as the sort of characters who would ignore the orders of their commanders and ARGH!!!!! charge at the enemy for blood and glory, rather than fighting in smart and disciplined manner whose intent was to WIN not seek that blood and glory.

[JONNIN]

Fast runner is a waster IMHO.  You will find a number of speed increasing items over the course of the game.  Some of it is randomized loot, sure, but I am *somewhat* sure that at least 1 such item is on a vendor.  Consider carefully before you spend this point -- you are spending an irreplaceable talent for something you can get on gear (and not just on boots, either). 

 

Arms bearer -- I never found it to be useful to have more than 2 sets of weapons, but that is a personal choice. 

 

4 spells per level is more than fine for most people.   A lot of the spells are redundant ... fireball is redundant since acidball does a debuff and more damage at the same level.   He has access to a ton of spells and only about 1/3 of them are really good ... 4/ level is cramped but doable, and the few times you might need an alternate spell book, you can either swap them slowly (its not that bad) or swap ahead of time (knowing a little something about the game in advance or observing the area you are in and swapping based off the most common enemy types...).

 

Aloth would be better off with elemental damage utility talents.

[Crucis]

Fast runner is a waster IMHO.  You will find a number of speed increasing items over the course of the game.  Some of it is randomized loot, sure, but I am *somewhat* sure that at least 1 such item is on a vendor.  Consider carefully before you spend this point -- you are spending an irreplaceable talent for something you can get on gear (and not just on boots, either). 

 

Arms bearer -- I never found it to be useful to have more than 2 sets of weapons, but that is a personal choice. 

 

4 spells per level is more than fine for most people.   A lot of the spells are redundant ... fireball is redundant since acidball does a debuff and more damage at the same level.   He has access to a ton of spells and only about 1/3 of them are really good ... 4/ level is cramped but doable, and the few times you might need an alternate spell book, you can either swap them slowly (its not that bad) or swap ahead of time (knowing a little something about the game in advance or observing the area you are in and swapping based off the most common enemy types...).

 

Aloth would be better off with elemental damage utility talents.

 

I fully agree that it's personal choice, but I have an extremely hard time seeing how anyone could NOT find it useful.  I go with Ranged weapon, blunt weapon and edged weapon on just about every melee character I've played thus far.  To me, not carrying a ranged weapon or 2 different damage type melee weapons is like trying to fight with one arm tied behind my back, and having to carry my weapon in my off-hand.

 

For me, it's to the point that just like people almost have to find some strange reason to NOT use a wood elf for a ranged combatant character, I have that same problem trying to find a reason for not using an Island Aumaua for melee characters.  Not because of their strength, but because if the free Arms Bearer talent.  To me, the Arms Bearer talent is soooooooooooooooooooooooo much better and useful on melee characters (not counting monks) than any other racial ability that I have a hard time justifying picking any other race for a melee character.

 

Still, it's a personal choice. 

 

==

 

As for Fast Runner, I mostly agree with you.  OTOH, IIRC, there are two basic types of movement enhancing items that I recall seeing.  The Boots of Speed, which are usually only found late game.  And some gauntlets that add +1 to movement speed (same as the Fast Runner feat).  The problem I have with those gauntlets is that there are other gauntlets or bracers that are so much better that long term, those "speed gauntlets" are a waste of an item slot once you get one of those better gauntlets. 

 

Having said all that, there aren't all that many builds where Fast Runner would be useful or worth the cost.  I can see a rogue or a ranger who you want to "kite" (I believe the term is) an enemy with ranged attacks could benefit from Fast Runner.  Heck, even a character who you use to take an opening shot at range to draw the enemy back to your party can benefit from the little extra speed, because I've noticed that far to often enemies will run down that character before he can get back behind the party's front lines, if he took his shot too far from the party in the first place.  I've heard that Fast Runner gives you just enough speed to stay ahead of most enemies trying to run you down.

 

I agree with you about the spell stuff, though.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Crucis

[ohako]

okay, got it.

 

yeah, I'm going with a Barbarian for play #1, because there aren't any other barb party members, and I heard monks are weird.

 

So since Carnage doesn't work at range, I think my current strategy of double flails for low DR and an Estoc for high DR is viable. Here's a talent breakout.

 

2 Weapon Focus Adventurer

4 Accurate Carnage

6 Improved Frenzy

8 Two Weapon Style

10 Two-Handed Style

12 ???

 

I tried for a while having my barb be a Ruffian Barbarian, wielding a club and a stiletto in one slot, and a pistol in the other. Here's what I found. Alpha-striking with the pistol works (if the pistol is not an unmodified Disappointer), but then I have to activate Frenzy then charge into melee. By that point the front line has been set, and I found Aloth getting wrecked often in melee. Here's what I do now

 

1. My Barbarian

a) activate Frenzy (free at start of combat)

b) run towards nearest bad guy, and start swinging (switching out weapons if needed)

 

2. Eder

a) shoot the Disappointer at something

b) switch out for his sabre and shield, and try to trip something

 

and the ranged guys stay at range. Basically, I found that setting the line early was important. My barbarian can do that (and Eder can help) much better than Eder by himself and a shoot->rage->smash barb.

[EphemeralToast]

2 Weapon Focus Adventurer

4 Accurate Carnage

6 Improved Frenzy

8 Two Weapon Style

10 Two-Handed Style

12 ???

 

Seems fine to me, and locking mobs into your frontliners early is a sound choice. Personally I find Improved Frenzy to be a little weak (basically like eating Beefloaf), but it's not a life or death choice. Barbs are fun, and Estocs are good weapons with some nice unique options. Enjoy wrecking faces.