No longer have to sneak to find secrets?

[manageri]

 

 

 

YOU don't have to pay attention to a goddamn thing, the CHARACTERS do the spotting. all YOU do is press the "find all secrets kthx" button, which has no consequences whatsoever for the CHARACTERS when they're just randomly traipsing around town, it only wastes YOUR time.

 

 

 

 

I'm rather tempted to call this a stupid comment, since by your logic, your characters based on their skills do the whole game.

 

Ironically yours is the stupid comment since the characters can't do **** all in just about any situation without your input. It is however factually true, as I said, that in the specific scenario of the characters walking around (after you've given them the command to do so, durr) detecting secrets takes absolutely zero skill/effort/anything else from the player. You can literally just as well be in another room. The only variable there is whether scouting mode is on or not, and since there is no cost for the characters whatsoever in having it on, the logical thing is to have it on all the time, which adds nothing to gameplay but a waste of time. I'd say I'm amazed everyone can't see this but it's not really even close to the top tier of daily internet stupidity. I think you definitely have potential in that regard though.

 

But let's just go with my usual comment when something like that crops up: If you don't like a feature, don't use it. Simple as that.

 

 

Another bit of ironic stupidity since there is no feature (without mods) to have the characters find all the secrets they can without wasting the player's time for no goddamn reason with a movement speed penalty.

Edited May 27, 2015 by manageri

[wanderon]

 

 

Yes it's one of the damn role playing things - you know that you have to be moving slowly and paying close attention to see things that are HIDDEN specificly so that others don't see them normally. Why they would want to incorporate any role playing crap in a role playing game is of course anyones guess.

 

 

YOU don't have to pay attention to a goddamn thing, the CHARACTERS do the spotting. all YOU do is press the "find all secrets kthx" button, which has no consequences whatsoever for the CHARACTERS when they're just randomly traipsing around town, it only wastes YOUR time.

 

If you want an option for idiotic time wastes, go right ahead and make a mod that makes the character move 99.9% slower when in scouting mode for all I care. While you're at it wait 12 real hours when characters travel 12 hours on the map, such immerse/rp/MeaninglessBuzzWords wow.

 

 

Actually this happens to be one of those games where your characters do nothing without your input so I actually have to pay enough attention to first send them looking in likely places for clues and treasures and traps and to turn on stealth when I do so in order to make them move slowly enough so that they don't miss anything - you can call it button mashing or time waste if you wish - I prefer to call it roleplaying and gaming and as it turns out it's not me who needs to make a mod to accomplish MY goals in this endeavor as the game works just fine as it is for this sort of thing - thanks Obsidian - good job! 

[Crucis]

 

 

 

 

YOU don't have to pay attention to a goddamn thing, the CHARACTERS do the spotting. all YOU do is press the "find all secrets kthx" button, which has no consequences whatsoever for the CHARACTERS when they're just randomly traipsing around town, it only wastes YOUR time.

 

 

 

 

I'm rather tempted to call this a stupid comment, since by your logic, your characters based on their skills do the whole game.

 

Ironically yours is the stupid comment since the characters can't do **** all in just about any situation without your input. It is however factually true, as I said, that in the specific scenario of the characters walking around (after you've given them the command to do so, durr) detecting secrets takes absolutely zero skill/effort/anything else from the player. You can literally just as well be in another room. The only variable there is whether scouting mode is on or not, and since there is no cost for the characters whatsoever in having it on, the logical thing is to have it on all the time, which adds nothing to gameplay but a waste of time. I'd say I'm amazed everyone can't see this but it's not really even close to the top tier of daily internet stupidity. I think you definitely have potential in that regard though.

 

Maybe those people just don't agree with you.  Also, IIRC, I think that you have to be within a certain distance to spot hidden things.  If you go into a big room and don't make the effort to have your mechanics character cover the entire room, chances are that you might miss something in those areas you didn't get close enough to.  That may not exactly be "skill" on the player's party, but it is an action that said player needs to take.

[manageri]

Actually this happens to be one of those games where your characters do nothing without your input so I actually have to pay enough attention to first send them looking in likely places for clues and treasures and traps and to turn on stealth when I do so in order to make them move slowly enough so that they don't miss anything

 

The fact scouting mode makes you slower influences none of that in any way, you'd still send them to check the exact same places. I have no idea why you think the char must move slowly to detect stuff. There are no periodic (per round or whatever it was) checks like in D&D games; Stuff gets spotted when nearby instantly in PoE. All the slowness does is, amazingly enough, slow it down for you. So that adds what to the experience exactly?

 

 

- you can call it button mashing or time waste if you wish - I prefer to call it roleplaying

 

Right, I forgot that everything tedious and pointless in RPGs is instantly made perfect by just calling it "roleplaying". By all means do all the "roleplaying" you like, I'd have zero problem with that if they simply had the options to disable all this crap. Luckily there's IE mod to fix this, but who knows whether that will be kept up to date forever when new patches come, so I'd prefer an official option.

 

 

IIRC, I think that you have to be within a certain distance to spot hidden things.  If you go into a big room and don't make the effort to have your mechanics character cover the entire room, chances are that you might miss something in those areas you didn't get close enough to.  That may not exactly be "skill" on the player's party, but it is an action that said player needs to take.

 

 

Which, once again, has nothing to do with the speed at which chars move when scouting.

Edited May 28, 2015 by manageri

[Crucis]

 

 

IIRC, I think that you have to be within a certain distance to spot hidden things.  If you go into a big room and don't make the effort to have your mechanics character cover the entire room, chances are that you might miss something in those areas you didn't get close enough to.  That may not exactly be "skill" on the player's party, but it is an action that said player needs to take.

 

 

Which, once again, has nothing to do with the speed at which chars move when scouting.

 

 

I wasn't speaking to the speed at which characters move when scouting, so shock of shocks, my comments say nothing about it, since I was responding to something else.

[wanderon]

 

Actually this happens to be one of those games where your characters do nothing without your input so I actually have to pay enough attention to first send them looking in likely places for clues and treasures and traps and to turn on stealth when I do so in order to make them move slowly enough so that they don't miss anything

 

The fact scouting mode makes you slower influences none of that in any way, you'd still send them to check the exact same places. I have no idea why you think the char must move slowly to detect stuff. There are no periodic (per round or whatever it was) checks like in D&D games; Stuff gets spotted when nearby instantly in PoE. All the slowness does is, amazingly enough, slow it down for you. So that adds what to the experience exactly?

 

 

 

 

The fact that scouting mode makes you slower is exactly why it makes perfect sense that it effects your ability to find things because you should not be able to run across an area and still carefully look for traps and hidden items that's why it's good roleplaying - because it's about having your character act and fit into the world like a common member of the games races not some supercharged magical being who can sprint across the room detecting traps and other carefully hidden items as he flys by. It's about immersion and being a part of the setting not just figuring out the games mechanics to hurry up and get to the next encounter so you can finish the damn game and move on.

[manageri]

 

The fact that scouting mode makes you slower is exactly why it makes perfect sense that it effects your ability to find things because you should not be able to run across an area and still carefully look for traps and hidden items that's why it's good roleplaying - because it's about having your character act and fit into the world like a common member of the games races not some supercharged magical being who can sprint across the room detecting traps and other carefully hidden items as he flys by. It's about immersion and being a part of the setting not just figuring out the games mechanics to hurry up and get to the next encounter so you can finish the damn game and move on.

 

Then I'm sure you also wait the appropriate amount of real hours when traveling on the map, right? I mean it's just be horrible ROLEPLAYING to move from Defiance Bay to Gilded Vale in 5 seconds, RIGHT? What kind of supercharged magical being can do that?

 

If you want to waste your time then guess what - you can spend as many real hours walking around in every room "looking for secrets" as you want. That's no reason to impose idiotic wastes of time on everyone else.

[wanderon]

 

 

The fact that scouting mode makes you slower is exactly why it makes perfect sense that it effects your ability to find things because you should not be able to run across an area and still carefully look for traps and hidden items that's why it's good roleplaying - because it's about having your character act and fit into the world like a common member of the games races not some supercharged magical being who can sprint across the room detecting traps and other carefully hidden items as he flys by. It's about immersion and being a part of the setting not just figuring out the games mechanics to hurry up and get to the next encounter so you can finish the damn game and move on.

 

Then I'm sure you also wait the appropriate amount of real hours when traveling on the map, right? I mean it's just be horrible ROLEPLAYING to move from Defiance Bay to Gilded Vale in 5 seconds, RIGHT? What kind of supercharged magical being can do that?

 

If you want to waste your time then guess what - you can spend as many real hours walking around in every room "looking for secrets" as you want. That's no reason to impose idiotic wastes of time on everyone else.

 

 

Obviously the devs disagree

[abaris]

 

If you want to waste your time then guess what - you can spend as many real hours walking around in every room "looking for secrets" as you want. That's no reason to impose idiotic wastes of time on everyone else.

 

 

There are more than enough GungHo hack and slash games on the market that don't waste your precious time on something as useless as exploring. They usually even give you big shiny quest markers, so you don't miss out on secrets.

 

And since "everyone else" seems to be a single person in this thread, it doesn't seem to be ever so important.

[manageri]

Obviously the devs disagree

 

 

Oh, you mean we shouldn't ever critique anything? You do realize that is the logical conclusion here, as the same ludicrous non-answer applies to anything and everything:

"Why the hell does my car's engine get set on fire every time I change gears, that's ****ing retarded."

"Obviously the engineers disagree."

"Oh, nevermind then!"

 

 

 

 

If you want to waste your time then guess what - you can spend as many real hours walking around in every room "looking for secrets" as you want. That's no reason to impose idiotic wastes of time on everyone else.

 

 

There are more than enough GungHo hack and slash games on the market that don't waste your precious time on something as useless as exploring. They usually even give you big shiny quest markers, so you don't miss out on secrets.

 

Pitiful strawman.

 

 

And since "everyone else" seems to be a single person in this thread, it doesn't seem to be ever so important.

 

 

Yes, because every single player always comments with their view on every single thread on every forum, so if only one guy says something somewhere then no one else on the planet can feel the same way.

[abaris]

 

Obviously the devs disagree

 

 

Oh, you mean we shouldn't ever critique anything? You do realize that is the logical conclusion here, as the same ludicrous non-answer applies to anything and everything:

"Why the hell does my car's engine get set on fire every time I change gears, that's ****ing retarded."

"Obviously the engineers disagree."

"Oh, nevermind then!"

 

 

 

 

If you want to waste your time then guess what - you can spend as many real hours walking around in every room "looking for secrets" as you want. That's no reason to impose idiotic wastes of time on everyone else.

 

 

There are more than enough GungHo hack and slash games on the market that don't waste your precious time on something as useless as exploring. They usually even give you big shiny quest markers, so you don't miss out on secrets.

 

Pitiful strawman.

 

 

And since "everyone else" seems to be a single person in this thread, it doesn't seem to be ever so important.

 

 

Yes, because every single player always comments with their view on every single thread on every forum, so if only one guy says something somewhere then no one else on the planet can feel the same way.

 

 

Oh I'm sure there are some. And as I said in my pitiful strawman:They're probably playing games that interest them and don't try to press for another instant gratification hack and slash fest for a game that isn't designed according to their wishes.

[manageri]

Cool, I'll get to work making a "slow everything down by 99% mod" for you so you can get rid of all the "instant gratification". It's gonna make the game sooooooooo deep and tactical and immersive and increase the RP factor by at least 5000%. You shouldn't be handing out these awesome tips on the forums dude, you should make your own RPG that takes like five years to even boot up and all the instant gratification haters like you are sure to shower you with money.

[abaris]

Cool, I'll get to work making a "slow everything down by 99% mod" for you so you can get rid of all the "instant gratification". It's gonna make the game sooooooooo deep and tactical and immersive and increase the RP factor by at least 5000%. You shouldn't be handing out these awesome tips on the forums dude, you should make your own RPG that takes like five years to even boot up and all the instant gratification haters like you are sure to shower you with money.

 

No need, since thankfully there are still some studios making them.

[Crucis]

 

 

The fact that scouting mode makes you slower is exactly why it makes perfect sense that it effects your ability to find things because you should not be able to run across an area and still carefully look for traps and hidden items that's why it's good roleplaying - because it's about having your character act and fit into the world like a common member of the games races not some supercharged magical being who can sprint across the room detecting traps and other carefully hidden items as he flys by. It's about immersion and being a part of the setting not just figuring out the games mechanics to hurry up and get to the next encounter so you can finish the damn game and move on.

 

Then I'm sure you also wait the appropriate amount of real hours when traveling on the map, right? I mean it's just be horrible ROLEPLAYING to move from Defiance Bay to Gilded Vale in 5 seconds, RIGHT? What kind of supercharged magical being can do that?

 

If you want to waste your time then guess what - you can spend as many real hours walking around in every room "looking for secrets" as you want. That's no reason to impose idiotic wastes of time on everyone else.

 

 

 

Oh good grief.  It's not role playing to require a player to wait 5 real time hours for his party to walk a distance that would take 5 hours in-game.  All you're doing with that "requirement" is wasting actual real time when the game has effectively decided that nothing happens in the 5 game hours that it takes to get from point A to point B, then there's no reason not compress it for player convenience.  Stop being silly.

 

As far as scouting a room for hidden stuff, it's not a waste of time at all.  Seriously, it doesn't take a significant period of time for a scout to move around a cleared (of enemies) room, particularly if you've switched to "fast mode".  Has the game compressed the amount of time it might take to do such a search in "real life"?  Perhaps.  So what?

 

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill here, for crying out loud.

 

 

[Gorbag]

The complaint that searching slows the game down is only valid if a) scouting mode is mandatory and b) there's no way to mitigate these consequences. None of these is true for PoE: scouting is *not* necessary (not even for traps, you can just trigger the ones you don't find with your tank) and (as many pointed out), you can scout in fast mode, which brings it to normal speed, if you so desire. 

On the other hand, if scouting does not slow you down, there would be no drawback to using it. If there are no penalties, there's no reason not to have scouting mode on all the time. If it's going to be on all the time anyway, there's no reason for it to be togglable (it'll just be a frustrating chore to have to turn it on every time it gets switched off, or to miss stuff because you forgot to turn it on). And if it's going to be an automatic skill vs. difficulty check, which does not involve any player input other than spending points on level-up (i.e. does not involve the player actually playing the game), then what's the use of it?
Perhaps in the future Obs could make search mode and stealth mode separate and attach a different penalty to searching (like always starting out in recovery if you get caught in combat, because your characters are unprepared, etc.), but for now it works ok.

[Rabain]

For me it feels like the two functions are at odds from a roleplay perspective.  Scouting is a word that can describe both stealth and searching, so on the surface it looks suitable.  But if you think about it you can't really do both at the same time (at least not with respect to finding hidden objects).  If you are sneaking, it implies you are suspicious there might be enemies nearby that you wan't to catch unawares or avoid altogether.  Therefore you need to apply a certain amount of concentration to specifically searching for people and avoiding them, staying in cover, in shadow etc.  This is not the same kind of concentration you apply to finding a hidden bauble under a rock.  In fact trying to locate such a thing would occupy so much of your attention that an elephant could probably sneak up on you.

 

While you stealth you tend to use a more peripheral sense, widening your sphere of attention to be aware of everything so as not to be surprised.  When you search for hidden objects you apply a very focused attention, looking at details, oddities in the vicinity that might clue you into a hidden recess etc.

 

It would make more sense to detach search from Scouting. But I would be fine with adding a dual requirement of Mechanics and Perception so that from a roleplay perspective the person who understands how devices and hidden compartments etc work (mechanics) is also the kind of person who has a natural affinity for understanding their placement in the environment (perception).

 

This would mean that from a game perspective that there is an additional cost to finding these hidden bonuses and it is not just a by-product of high mechanics for trap location and disarm.

[Horrorscope]

Perhaps they could add "even faster mode" for scouting for secrets or traveling through already clear/safe areas.

 

iemod has that with the control button, goes into ludicrous speeds.

[manageri]

 

Oh good grief.  It's not role playing to require a player to wait 5 real time hours for his party to walk a distance that would take 5 hours in-game.

 

But somehow it is roleplaying to wait, I dunno, an extra 30 seconds per big area due to the slow down of scout mode? And yes, that's ALL it is, a wait, since nothing at all is required of you since the characters do the spotting on their on their own, you simply move them to the exact same areas you would anyway regardless of whether scout mode slows you down. So you explain to us then why 30 seconds of pointless waiting is super awesome but 5 hours is not. What the **** is the difference, besides quantity? That's right, there isn't one, so why the **** would you make the player sit there doing NOTHING for ANY amount of time?

 

 

All you're doing with that "requirement" is wasting actual real time when the game has effectively decided that nothing happens in the 5 game hours that it takes to get from point A to point B, then there's no reason not compress it for player convenience.  Stop being silly.

 

 

All you're doing with slowing the player down is wasting actual time when the game requires nothing whatsoever of you besides the movement orders which you do anyway, so there's no reason not to just keep the speed the same for player convenience. Stop being silly.

 

 

As far as scouting a room for hidden stuff, it's not a waste of time at all. 

 

That's right genius, too bad I never said anything remotely like that, I said the EXTRA TIME caused by the slowness is a waste.

 

 

Seriously, it doesn't take a significant period of time for a scout to move around a cleared (of enemies) room, particularly if you've switched to "fast mode".  Has the game compressed the amount of time it might take to do such a search in "real life"?  Perhaps.  So what?

 

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill here, for crying out loud.

 

A waste is a waste, the quantity does not change what it is.

 

 

The complaint that searching slows the game down is only valid if a) scouting mode is mandatory

 

I'm just gonna stop you there because quite ****ing obviously 90% of things in the game aren't "mandatory" by this standard, so it's ridiculous to define it this way. It is mandatory TO find all secrets/traps, and since there's no in game downside you'll want to do it all the time. 

[Crucis]

Give it a rest, manageri.  Your arguments in this are really pathetic.  If you don't have the patience to deal with scouting a room, even in fast mode, then maybe you're playing the wrong game.  Maybe you should go play speed chess or something similar.

[Gorbag]

The complaint that searching slows the game down is only valid if a) scouting mode is mandatory

 

I'm just gonna stop you there because quite ****ing obviously 90% of things in the game aren't "mandatory" by this standard, so it's ridiculous to define it this way. It is mandatory TO find all secrets/traps, and since there's no in game downside you'll want to do it all the time.

But there is a downside, you have to search for them. If you don't want to do it - you don't get them all. You either roll with that or do what is necessary to get them. it's a pretty simple choice about the way you want to play your game.

Finding them all is not mandatory, even the items you find are not mandatory. FWIW, you don't even get an achievement for finding every single hidden item in the game.

[Crucis]

 

The complaint that searching slows the game down is only valid if a) scouting mode is mandatory

 

I'm just gonna stop you there because quite ****ing obviously 90% of things in the game aren't "mandatory" by this standard, so it's ridiculous to define it this way. It is mandatory TO find all secrets/traps, and since there's no in game downside you'll want to do it all the time.

But there is a downside, you have to search for them. If you don't want to do it - you don't get them all. You either roll with that or do what is necessary to get them. it's a pretty simple choice about the way you want to play your game.

Finding them all is not mandatory, even the items you find are not mandatory. FWIW, you don't even get an achievement for finding every single hidden item in the game.

 

 

Not always.  But occasionally there are hidden containers that contain keys and hidden switches either of which may be required to open hidden doors that may be required to progress.  I might be wrong here, as I suppose that it's possible that there may be alternative ways to open or get around them to continue your progress.

 

 

[Gorbag]

 

 

The complaint that searching slows the game down is only valid if a) scouting mode is mandatory

 

I'm just gonna stop you there because quite ****ing obviously 90% of things in the game aren't "mandatory" by this standard, so it's ridiculous to define it this way. It is mandatory TO find all secrets/traps, and since there's no in game downside you'll want to do it all the time.

But there is a downside, you have to search for them. If you don't want to do it - you don't get them all. You either roll with that or do what is necessary to get them. it's a pretty simple choice about the way you want to play your game.

Finding them all is not mandatory, even the items you find are not mandatory. FWIW, you don't even get an achievement for finding every single hidden item in the game.

 

 

Not always.  But occasionally there are hidden containers that contain keys and hidden switches either of which may be required to open hidden doors that may be required to progress.  I might be wrong here, as I suppose that it's possible that there may be alternative ways to open or get around them to continue your progress.

Never to progress, but yes, you have to be able to detect hidden switches if you want to complete "The blade of the Endless Paths" side quest. Searching is only necessary for low level parties though.

[abaris]

But there is a downside, you have to search for them. If you don't want to do it - you don't get them all. You either roll with that or do what is necessary to get them. it's a pretty simple choice about the way you want to play your game.

Finding them all is not mandatory, even the items you find are not mandatory. FWIW, you don't even get an achievement for finding every single hidden item in the game.

 

 

Then you get them on the next playthrough. Or you miss out on some stew in a secret location - yes, that's actually what I unearthed at one. Another one contained a bottle of spirits. Probably the developers idea of a practical joke, since these weren't random items.

 

If someomne wants to find everything and all in one playthrough without putting effort into it, the Bioware stuff may be the better choice for that person. And what's that with the achievments? Yes, you don't get them for finding stuff, but you don't get them at all, when starting the game as admin from the folder. I never understood why someone would need them anyway, other than bragging about them to school buddies.

[Crucis]

 

 

Not always.  But occasionally there are hidden containers that contain keys and hidden switches either of which may be required to open hidden doors that may be required to progress.  I might be wrong here, as I suppose that it's possible that there may be alternative ways to open or get around them to continue your progress.

Never to progress, but yes, you have to be able to detect hidden switches if you want to complete "The blade of the Endless Paths" side quest. Searching is only necessary for low level parties though.

 

 

That's not entirely true.  The patch notes say that you don't need to be in search mode to detect hidden things that are 4 or more levels lower than your Mechanics skill level.  Thus, if you have high level hidden stuff (traps, compartments, switches, etc.), you'll still have to search to find them.

 

Honestly, I'm not as ... impatient .... as manageri.  I don't mind (heck, I ENJOY) crawling through a dungeon looking for traps, and hidden switches and so forth.  To me, it's all part of the RPG package.  To me, it's not even close to a waste of time.  It's the way RPG's are supposed to be, and if he doesn't like it, IMHO, he's playing the wrong genre of game.  They're called "dungeon CRAWLS" for a reason. 

Edited May 29, 2015 by Crucis

[Gorbag]

@ abaris: That post was meant as a reply, I personally don't care about achievements (or getting every single item in the game either).
@Crucis: Those switches you need to find in order to complete The blade of the Endless Paths light up right away if you are about level 10 and at least one of your characters has been building Mechanics. They are pretty low level really. The worst one I think is level 5. 
My point is that getting everything right away isn't a feature in PoE and that's not a fault of the game. It would have been if the game somehow forced you to use a mechanic you don't like, but that's not the case.