aluminiumtrioxid Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Is not most of the article, though. And isn't misleading, at least on my reading. Then I'm sorry to say, but you can't ****ing read. The article made no direct claims of racism on part of the game or the developers, nor any requests for content to be changed at all. Hence, "[the] perpetually offended do not just demand changes. They also shame developers for not catering to their own personal needs" is misleading if I'm feeling charitable, and outright false if I'm not. "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Lets turn the tables. I do not know what these structures are or how they are made racist, but how would you suggest society should do tear/change these structures and what counter measures should be made for racist structures to form in the first place? At least acknowledging the existence of structural racism would be a nice first step. I am not in a mood for listening & believing. Please try to answer my initial question. Every larger text has a theme or a message. Which can generally be gleaned through engagement with the core text, not vague claims of "it's totally there, honest". Nope. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) Lets turn the tables. I do not know what these structures are or how they are made racist, but how would you suggest society should do tear/change these structures and what counter measures should be made for racist structures to form in the first place? At least acknowledging the existence of structural racism would be a nice first step. I am not in a mood for listening & believing. Please try to answer my initial question. "First off, we should acknowledge their existence" is a perfectly valid answer for the question "how would you suggest society should do [I assume: to] tear/change these structures?". Every larger text has a theme or a message. Which can generally be gleaned through engagement with the core text, not vague claims of "it's totally there, honest". Nope. ...Have you never attended a single literature class in your entire life? This is, like, high school level we're talking about. You can't just make **** up, it has to have at least a semblance of connection to the text you're trying to analyze. Edited June 5, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) Is not most of the article, though. And isn't misleading, at least on my reading. Then I'm sorry to say, but you can't ****ing read. The article made no direct claims of racism on part of the game or the developers, nor any requests for content to be changed at all. Hence, "[the] perpetually offended do not just demand changes. They also shame developers for not catering to their own personal needs" is misleading if I'm feeling charitable, and outright false if I'm not. Ah, usual... Most of the article he is quoting Maciak. Will read it over once I am off mobile. You really doubt that about the people he is talking about, though? The perpetually offended does describe a crowd that does exist. I guess one can assume people crying over something want it changed and that it is a problem, though, else what is the point. It is the typical punching article, am not sure why it is up your craw. Edited June 5, 2015 by Malcador Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) The article made no direct claims of racism on part of the game or the developers, nor any requests for content to be changed at all. Hence, "[the] perpetually offended do not just demand changes. They also shame developers for not catering to their own personal needs" is misleading if I'm feeling charitable, and outright false if I'm not. Ah, usual... Most of the article he is quoting Maciak. And in this particular instance, he's not. He's quoting an article that engages in none of the behavior he describes. Hence the label: "misleading". It's not a difficult concept to grasp. (Before you ask, yes, I do realize how condescending this sounds.) (This is why I'm better than Chmielarz.[/sarcasm]) Edit: I guess one can assume people crying over something want it changed I feel compelled to point out that there are many ways of achieving change, and not all of them involve physically forcing developers at gunpoint to write more black characters into their games. Or, like, any sort of coercion at all, including "CENSORSHIP!". Edited June 5, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) Don't think he is even stating Maciak is that kind of ninny, he is going off on a rant at them in the bottom part. He tries to parry Maciak in the upper. Seems pretty clear. And not that big a deal in any event. Gunpoint? Maybe. The amount of Twitter and tumblr people outraged over stuff can generate some pressure and noise these days. But I suppose the intention in attempt matters more than the results when remarking on them. Surprised you have an issue with his arguing style, too. Edited June 5, 2015 by Malcador Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineth Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Look, it's the third installment of series that's based on a series of books in which the world was already firmly established... What can you honestly expect? Did these same people complain about Lord of the Rings? To be fair, if Peter Jackson hadn't invented female characters which weren't in the book, his Hobbit trilogy would have been a total sausage fest. 1 "Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them." -- attributed to George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineth Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 But I think people (on both sides) are blowing this far out of proportion. And yet you keep defending one side, and accuse the other side of "vicious" motivations. "Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them." -- attributed to George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 But I think people (on both sides) are blowing this far out of proportion. And yet you keep defending one side, and accuse the other side of "vicious" motivations. [citation needed] "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) "First off, we should acknowledge their existence" is a perfectly valid answer for the question "how would you suggest society should do [I assume: to] tear/change these structures?".[/qoute]No. No one knows what these structures are and what makes them racist. Try again. ...Have you never attended a single literature class in your entire life? This is, like, high school level we're talking about. You can't just make **** up, it has to have at least a semblance of connection to the text you're trying to analyze. Pffft. I understand the text that you overanalyze per paragraph. I won't blame you for missing it, people still seem to be confused about what Jesus meant to say in the Bible. //Gah, too drunk to care about the botched quote-system. Time for bed. Edited June 5, 2015 by Meshugger "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Gunpoint? Maybe. The amount of Twitter and tumblr people outraged over stuff can generate some pressure and noise these days. That's kind of the point, isn't it? But realistically, the only thing Twitter and tumblr people being outraged generates is noise. Noise that pretty much dies down after a few months. Do correct me if I'm wrong. "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 No. No one knows what these structures are and what makes them racist. [citation needed] Note: "my ignorance" does not count as a credible source. Pffft. I understand the text that you overanalyze per paragraph. Apparently you don't, otherwise you could support your... 'understanding' of the text with actual quotes. "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Yep, but when you want to comment on them the results aren't as important as you're attacking or critiquing their motivations or characteristics alone. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Yep, but when you want to comment on them the results aren't as important as you're attacking or critiquing their motivations or characteristics alone. Except the very reason for commenting on them is "the danger of censorship they present" or somesuch, innit? "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonek Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) I'm eagerly awaiting Expeditions: Vikings simply because of the chances for diversity, hopefully we can travel to Byzantium to serve as Varangians in the Guard, and see what a melting pot of cultures and creeds walk the legendary streets. Diversity in such a crossroad of the world, at the centre of trading routes and easily accessible by sea (the highways of the ancient world) is warranted and internally consistent. I look forward to seeing the interactions and clashes that occur in such a locale. We need more games about Byzantium. Here we have 1000-year old empire that almost no mentions except in bystanding, even among historians. Yes i've always felt that it's been spectacularly overlooked myself, in fact i'd say that the most famous attempt at a Byzantium like metropolis is probably Gondor in Lord of the Rings. City between the east and the west, the still glorious brother of a long fallen sister city to the west, with famous horseman serving as its auxillary troops. The parallels really can't be denied. Imagine the artistry, the infamous politics, the architecture and the heritage of such a setting. Makes one think. Hah, Anglo Saxons are now Slavs, yeah that's priceless. Edit: Nice article by Mr Chmielarz. Edited June 5, 2015 by Nonek Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin. Tea for the teapot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineth Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 [citation needed] The article was less about the lack of representation, and more about the vicious backlash to complaints regarding it "Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them." -- attributed to George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 No. No one knows what these structures are and what makes them racist. [citation needed] Note: "my ignorance" does not count as a credible source. Stop sidestepping. What are these structures? Define them. Why are they racist? Saying "just acknowledge them" is way too lazy for anyone to take that argument seriously. Pffft. I understand the text that you overanalyze per paragraph. Apparently you don't, otherwise you could support your... 'understanding' of the text with actual quotes. lol, it's clear as a sunny day. Games should have more minorities because feelz and he uses The Witcher 3 as an example. "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) But I think people (on both sides) are blowing this far out of proportion. And yet you keep defending one side, and accuse the other side of "vicious" motivations. [citation needed] [citation needed] The article was less about the lack of representation, and more about the vicious backlash to complaints regarding it That's great, first Meshugger fails at lit 101, now you do the same with grammar. "Vicious" was a qualifier of the backlash. I didn't accuse anyone of "vicious motivations". It's amazing how you can overlook basic, elementary school-level stuff like this, yet still be 100% assured of your superior rationality over those biased feminists. Edited June 5, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 No. No one knows what these structures are and what makes them racist. [citation needed] Note: "my ignorance" does not count as a credible source. Stop sidestepping. What are these structures? Define them. Why are they racist? Saying "just acknowledge them" is way too lazy for anyone to take that argument seriously. Says the guy who's too lazy to ****ing google the phrase "structural racism". Examples of such. "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Yep, but when you want to comment on them the results aren't as important as you're attacking or critiquing their motivations or characteristics alone. Except the very reason for commenting on them is "the danger of censorship they present" or somesuch, innit? Or just annoyance at them That's great, first Meshugger fails at lit 101, now you do the same with grammar. "Vicious" was a qualifier of the backlash. I didn't accuse anyone of "vicious motivations". It's amazing how you can overlook basic, elementary school-level stuff like this, yet still be 100% assured of your superior rationality over those biased feminists. Well, when it's as written it can go either way, no need to keep on the superiority crusade there, but oh well. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) Well, when it's as written it can go either way, no need to keep on the superiority crusade there, but oh well. I'm not the guy who seemingly feels compelled to drop subtle barbs about (ill-understood) cognitive biases whenever feminism is discussed, so "superiority crusade" might be a bit of a mischaracterization here. By the way, I really can't wrap my head around how "vicious backlash" could mean anything but "a backlash that is characterized by being vicious"; then again, I am but an ignorant foreigner. Anyone care to lend a hand? Edited June 5, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Not really, you're, as usual, harping on people being illiterate morons when in that case it's understandable. Perhaps 'intense' would have been a better word. Or no qualifier at all, pretty sure everyone here is aware the backlash is what it is. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Not really, you're, as usual, harping on people being illiterate morons when in that case it's understandable. I'm only harping on people being illiterate morons when they keep making claims they can't back up with textual evidence. Which is pretty much the definition of functional illiteracy. (Well technically it is not, since "functional illiteracy" means a very specific thing, but you get my drift.) "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonek Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Illiterate morons, touch harsh. Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin. Tea for the teapot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluminiumtrioxid Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) Illiterate morons, touch harsh. Quite so. In my defense, I could do much more productive things with my time than debating how justified certain internet journalists are when employing certain characterizations. If I'm showing someone the respect of giving them my time and attention, it's not unreasonable to expect them to refrain from wasting it by making claims they can't prove. That said, since I clearly feel my time is not being spent optimally by debating this issue, I will now bow out of the discussion, since it's unlikely I can add anything of value to it. Have a nice day, gentlemen. Edited June 6, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid "Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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