Scrotie's attribute redesign

[scrotiemcb]

Decided to make a separate thread to separate proposals and prevent confusion.

 

Let us assume the primary goal is "no dump stats." This is a distinctly separate goal from "stats that fit the genre conventions."

 

What's important is that we start by analyzing the "squishy" character archetype first and completely, before moving on to defensive archetypes at all. This is because offense is always, always of some utility to a build, but defensive responsibilities can be wholly transferred onto other characters. Thus, the only way we can assure an attribute is never a dump stat is to ensure it has value to all squishies.

 

So let's go over what types of bonuses squishies desire.

 

1. Damage per action. This would be the best way to increase damage per second (DPS). It gets Attribute #1.

2. Actions per second. This would be a little worse than attribute #1 in raw DPS, but allow for better spread (less average overkill damage) and easier kiting. It gets Attribute #2.

3. Area of effect. Assuming some form of damaging AoE is available to all classes (ex: Blast no longer a Wizard-specific talent), then every class can increase functional DPS with increased AoE. This greeted Attribute #2.

4. Duration. Assuming some form of damage-over-time available to all classes (ex: Envenomed Strike), then every class can increase functional DPS with increased duration. This gets Attribute #4.

5. Range. This is useful for ranged DPS to engage enemies from further away, resulting in a functional damage increase against enemy melee. This goes to attribute #5. However, it assumes ranged DPS, so to ensure it isn't a dump stat, we'd have to give melee DPS a similar advantage.

6. Stealth. This can be used by melee DPS to get within attack range of enemies before the encounter begins. There is nothing saying Stealth must or should be handled by a non-Attribute system. This completes Attribute #5.

 

This just about exhausts traits which could be universally valued by squishies. Any additional attributes would fall under the category of defense. However, defenses which are more useful to squishies should probably get a chance here, and one particular squishy, the Priest, is missing an opportunity to improve one of his functions, healing.

 

What defense is better on squishies than more defensive characters? Endurance. Not Health, just Endurance. Tanks generally stack damage mitigation and are concerned about their rate of healing and their Health more than actual Endurance, since Health functionally determines when they drop assuming they outheal incoming damage. Thus, Attribute #6 would grant bonuses to Healing and Endurance (not Health)... as well as Concentration, so squishies who take #6 can escape engagement with less chance of KO.

 

Now for actually defensive characters. Since Attributes #1 and #2 increase autoattack DPS - an important fact for characters with limited, if any, active damage abilities, the defensive stats should be focused on Attributes 3 and 5, with perhaps a minor bonus to 4, which already improves any self-buffs the tank may have. (6 is already good defensively.) The two most important to include are damage mitigation and Health, so those go to 3 and 5, while the semi-useful Interrupt stat goes to 4, allowing low-damage tanks to disrupt enemies better.

 

Next, we have saves (Fort, Ref, Will). These should all be on a single attribute, not two! Doubling them up just makes the attributes less distinctive.

 

Combine the above concepts, make one concession for flavor (switch AoE and Duration), through in interrupt, and we have...

 

Might: +% Damage, + Fortitude

 

Vigor (previously Constitution): +% Duration, +% Health

 

Dexterity: +% Action Speed, + Reflex

 

Perception: +% Range and Vision, + Stealth, + Deflection

 

Intelligence: +% Area of Effect, + Interrupt, + Logic (formerly Will)

 

Resolve: +% Healing, +% Endurance, + Concentration

 

I think that's about as non-dumpy as the attribute system could get, assuming six attributes rather than five.

Edited April 25, 2015 by scrotiemcb

[b0rsuk]

Looks very artificial. Stealth as attribute ? Why not make Constitution affect fatigue gain instead of Athletics ? Makes more sense. Vigor increasing duration ?

 

I think I would just go with Might, Dexterity and Intelligence. Great saves, great damage, great area.  If you don't get those stats, saves would be really low. Plus, you get all the components of an interrupt build in 3 stats.

I would skip Perception on ranged attackers, as well as Resolve. Vigor doesn't look crucial for rangers either.

Edited April 25, 2015 by b0rsuk

[scrotiemcb]

@b0rsuk

I specifically mentioned that damage-over-time and AoE damage abilities would have to be considered in class/ability design for the system to work. Vigor and Intelligence would definitely focus on active abilities more than on autoattacks.

 

I would feel completely comfortable scratching the five skills in the game completely. Athletics would be much more interesting as a % max Health system, where your characters get more sloppy the closer they get to death. As with AoE, increasing Vigor wouldn't increase the fatigue thresholds, but just give more "good Health." Every class would have more Health, knowing that the last fraction of it isn't very useful. Travel would represent a very gradual Health drain which could kill wounded characters outside of combat. Lore and Survival are both very meh. The only real stricking point would be Mechanics.

Edited April 25, 2015 by scrotiemcb

[dododad]

Renamed constitution becomes obvious dump stat. Duration and Health, even more, aren't much needed.

Oh, and dexterity becomes GOD among stats. Forget anything else. Just give me action speeeeeeeeeeeeed.

Edited April 25, 2015 by dododad

[scrotiemcb]

Duration is no dump stat.

[View619]

Has anybody found any information on modding attributes?

[b0rsuk]

Duration is no dump stat.

 

For many characters, it is. You can have successful druids that just nuke. Many abilities are modal or instant. Monk with Torrent's Reach, etc. MMO tank doesn't need duration, just defenders, deflection, careful attack etc.

 

I will tell you how I would exploit your system. It seems damage dealers (Might, Dexterity, Int) will have excellent offensive stats AND saves. The only thing they lack is some endurance/DR. So, a team with 4 DPS characters and 2 heavy buffers (priests, maaybe one druid) should wreck everyone.

Edited April 25, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Tigranes]

It's impossible to make every stat equally worthwhile for every character type, because of course the whole point of specialising is you don't need some things. INT is already a dump stat for certain characters, for example. All you need to do is (1) prevent stats that are dump or no brainer for everybody, and (2) make sure most common character types have some dilemmas about which stats to choose.

 

I'm generally OK with what we've got right now, but Con definitely loses out, while Per is one of those 'sucks to have too low but no huge incentive to jack up high'. One solution for Con might be to make health/endurance more dependent, i.e. reduce base E/H and make the Con gains/losses higher. 

[gkathellar]

I have issues with the larger redesign which I don't have the time to get into, but I just want to say - I really like the idea of coupling Duration with a stat like Constitution.

[scrotiemcb]

It's impossible to make every stat equally worthwhile for every character type, because of course the whole point of specialising is you don't need some things. INT is already a dump stat for certain characters, for example.

 

This assumes that class abilities are chosen before attributes, which is pretty much the opposite of the truth. Duration and AoE abilities should be the rewards of investing in the corresponding attributes, while a lack of AoE abilities should be viewed as the consequence, not the cause, of a lack of investment in Intelligence. Edited April 25, 2015 by scrotiemcb

[scrotiemcb]

Anyone else?

[Atheosis]

Totally pointless thread.  Maybe use it in your own pen and paper game because it's never going to be used in PoE...