Tanks need some kind of overhaul.

[Antless]

 

You're either a tank, a DPSer, or suboptimal.

Some people don't care if they're "suboptimal." eg, you can still win even if you're not. And to some, that's even more fun. 

 

That isn't a reason why it should be that way.

 

 

 

suboptimal

What's "optimal"? 90% of encounters in PoE are trash mobs, and the quicker you clean them the more optimal you are in my opinion. If a tank can help with that and hold mobs long enough he is optimal. And if that's not enough, equip Hatchet, largest shield and drink Llengrath's potion - bam, you're optimal for everything but Adra dragon.

 

 

 

I have a potd group currently on level 5 (other saves are stored away and I'm lazy) with the following stats:

Durance about 5k damage done (he only has about half the time in combat from the rest, so I doubled the damage for comparison).

Pallegina and Kana, both 2h + plate armor: both about 6k.

Mother: 7k (doesn't have a blunderbuss yet + mostly supports the PC with mental binding/phantom foes).

Sagani at 10k (which to me is a reasonable difference to "tanks" that are also supporters, considering she is also an offtank with her fox).

PC reach-rogue: bordering 30k.

 

If I replaced one or both of my tanks with a big rock with a sign saying "hit me" on it, I honestly doubt that the difference in killing speed would be noticeable.

[Shadenuat]

If I replaced one or both of my tanks with a big rock with a sign saying "hit me" on it, I honestly doubt that the difference in killing speed would be noticeable.

It's always like that in a group with hired companions, especially if your PC is a DPS machine:

1) You pay more attention to managing your PC

2) PC spent more time in group

3) Obsidian characters are crappily built even after all the patches compared to what you can do with hirelings

4) Rogues, lel

 

Here's mine for example at Act 2:

 

Barbarian tank: 17k, Wizard tank 12k, Druid DPS 16k, Rogue DPS 24k.

[MadDemiurg]

I don't know how you people get damage difference like that? Do you run your party to its death and then solo everything with your PC?

 

From my (abandoned) Paladin earlygame playthrough (lvl3):

 

PC paladin tank: 2.1K (overblown a bit due to exp lead and prologue damage), Custom rogue: 4K, Custom monk offtank: 3.3k (also leads in damage taken), Custom cipher: 4.3K (probably could be more if not for CC spam), Custom Ranger: 3K (AC damage doesn't count most likely), Custom priest: 2K (duh)

Edited April 25, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[LadyCrimson]

That isn't a reason why it should be that way.

Didn't say it was a *reason*.

Although if you want to go that direction, saying "I personally want to be able to create an awesome tank who can also do awesome damage, because I don't like middle-ground, and this game doesn't let me do what I want" isn't a reason, either.

[Schyzm]

in my ideal world the solution for the super tank issue would actually be better ai and more impactful abilities for enemies. more willingness to bypass tanks, to ignore things that do no damage, more abilities like clear out, teleport, sprints or maybe "dont stand in the fire" aoe. could make battles more chaotic and awesome. obviously this isn't going to happen really, but it'd be cool if it did.

[Odd Hermit]

I'd prefer not having traditional "tanks", as it leads to pretty dull/repetitive tactics.

 

"Balanced" melee characters are usable but very far from ideal and make things considerably more difficult on PotD relative to min/maxed tanks that are night invulnerable.

[gkathellar]

 

That isn't a reason why it should be that way.

Didn't say it was a *reason*.

Although if you want to go that direction, saying "I personally want to be able to create an awesome tank who can also do awesome damage, because I don't like middle-ground, and this game doesn't let me do what I want" isn't a reason, either.

 

You're misstating the nature of the objection. It's more, "I would like to be able to create a middle-ground character whose overall effectiveness is roughly equal to that of a specialized character."

[Kaigen42]

I think anti-DR modals don't make sense if your damage is above 25, so they shouldn't be used in either case. Arquebus has inherent 6 DR, while estoc has 5 (which I think was changed after some patch - I remember it having 3 before). Which makes a break-even DR value about 23, which is not so uncommon, and considering that tough enemies are really the only ones that one should care about, it's even more important. I did test the speed with a character in plate and a gunner trait, and it was almost exactly x3, as you said. However, while a gunner can try and wear lighter armor, for someone who frequently melees it's just too risky. As for savage attack, I just saw a "close shooter" talent on wiki, which increases ranged damage by 10% at "close range", but I don't remember seeing it at any level-up. Is it super-new, or something from the beta?

 

Even DR 23 isn't that common, especially if you're talking piercing damage, which both the estoc and the arquebus do. Sky Dragon only has 21 DR, while Skeletal Fighters and Death Knights have 18. If you want enemies with 23+ Piercing DR, you're looking at Adra Animats, the Adra Dragon, and Greater Rain Blights (scourge of PotD parties everywhere). I assume "Close Shooter" is something that was in beta and was later cut.

 

Which is where this little discussion links back into the larger one: durability is such an all or nothing thing that many people, myself included, would rather field ranged DPS, despite their lower damage, because fielding melee DPS requires you to sacrifice their damage potential in some way, whether by wearing armor or using a reach weapon or sacrificing attribute points, or else expend a significant amount of effort micromanaging them in order to ensure they don't get splattered across the battlefield. You can push ranged DPS all the way, while melee DPS has to hold back out of concern for survivability (though I'd still expect the melee DPS to do better in terms of raw damage output).

[LadyCrimson]

You're misstating the nature of the objection.

Always possible.

 

It's more, "I would like to be able to create a middle-ground character whose overall effectiveness is roughly equal to that of a specialized character."

But a middle-ground chr. by definition can't be be both a great tank or great dps in one chr, whether all the time or just "most of the time," nor should they be. That's why they're middle-of-the-road.

 

What is "overall" supposed to mean, outside of "they can tank fairly well and at least do enough dmg. to eventually bring something down?" Middle ground PoE already can do this. All I was saying is that personal preferences doesn't mean there's an actual imbalance.

 

[Rumpelstilskin]

 

I think anti-DR modals don't make sense if your damage is above 25, so they shouldn't be used in either case. Arquebus has inherent 6 DR, while estoc has 5 (which I think was changed after some patch - I remember it having 3 before). Which makes a break-even DR value about 23, which is not so uncommon, and considering that tough enemies are really the only ones that one should care about, it's even more important. I did test the speed with a character in plate and a gunner trait, and it was almost exactly x3, as you said. However, while a gunner can try and wear lighter armor, for someone who frequently melees it's just too risky. As for savage attack, I just saw a "close shooter" talent on wiki, which increases ranged damage by 10% at "close range", but I don't remember seeing it at any level-up. Is it super-new, or something from the beta?

 

Even DR 23 isn't that common, especially if you're talking piercing damage, which both the estoc and the arquebus do. Sky Dragon only has 21 DR, while Skeletal Fighters and Death Knights have 18. If you want enemies with 23+ Piercing DR, you're looking at Adra Animats, the Adra Dragon, and Greater Rain Blights (scourge of PotD parties everywhere). I assume "Close Shooter" is something that was in beta and was later cut.

 

Which is where this little discussion links back into the larger one: durability is such an all or nothing thing that many people, myself included, would rather field ranged DPS, despite their lower damage, because fielding melee DPS requires you to sacrifice their damage potential in some way, whether by wearing armor or using a reach weapon or sacrificing attribute points, or else expend a significant amount of effort micromanaging them in order to ensure they don't get splattered across the battlefield. You can push ranged DPS all the way, while melee DPS has to hold back out of concern for survivability (though I'd still expect the melee DPS to do better in terms of raw damage output).

 

I only played on hard, but don't enemies have 50% higher DR on PotD as well? I suppose it'd made Arda Dragon absolutely brutal, but hey, everyone wants more challenge. Now as I went through the bestiary again, it does look like monsters generally have lower DRs than I thought they had. But yeah, being ranged itself is such a massive advantage that it's always preferable for a DPSer unless the damage is way worse. Not the least because you don't have to waste time (=attack speed) to re-position. Personally, I still think I prefer arbalests though, especially Aedrin's Wrecker (for its awesome stuns).

[Rumpelstilskin]

Btw, this thread:

- Would you like to suggest an improvement to PoE's combat system, sir?

- No tanks

[2ane]

i just finished the game on hard and i found a full tank Eder being to one-sided and ineffective. Sure he doesnt die ever but he will be durable enough with a 2-handed weapon and with defender deactivated. This way he will be hitting some 60+ damage crits as well as keeping the enemies locked in doorways.

[Antless]

 

It's more, "I would like to be able to create a middle-ground character whose overall effectiveness is roughly equal to that of a specialized character."

 

But a middle-ground chr. by definition can't be be both a great tank or great dps in one chr, whether all the time or just "most of the time," nor should they be. That's why they're middle-of-the-road.

 

What is "overall" supposed to mean, outside of "they can tank fairly well and at least do enough dmg. to eventually bring something down?" Middle ground PoE already can do this. All I was saying is that personal preferences doesn't mean there's an actual imbalance.

 

 

 To me, middle ground would simply mean that two of these characters would deal about as much damage and be about as hard to kill as one tank (targeted first) and one DPS.

This could of course only ever be a guideline, but as has been pointed out, the systems in PoE actively work against that.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Antless

[Jimmysdabestcop]

I still don't think there are any "tanks" in PoE. There is no aggro system, no guarding system, and no taking damage meant for other party members. Those are the 3 things that help make tanks well tanks.

 

All PoE has is meat shields. Make a character with enough defesne that just cant be hit. Its the AI problem it won't just go around him. But a lot of encoutner areas its actually hard to navigate. And the AI insists on trying to engage melee with a character it cant reach instead of switching to range and killing your low deflection low armor members.

 

And basing the game on Normal Mode since its "normal" you can easily take Defender and Wary Defender and dual wield with talent which cancels out the -20% speed. Then armor grace gives you -16% recovery. A Fighter can easily dump int to 3. Max Might and Dex and raise Per and Res. Or dump Int and con and max everything else.

 

Not having Con might mean more rests for overal HP. But the Fighter has a cape that increases regen, 2 regen talents plus other regen items and Endurance boosting items. and max might increases regen further. So they don't need Max Deflection just take the hits and regen while wasting 2 talents on defense and the rest on offense.

 

And Fighters don't need any management. Just set it and forget it. Any other class that out damages a fighter needs way more management. So you just have to play the game you like with the characters you like.

[Judicator]

 

 

You're either a tank, a DPSer, or suboptimal.

Some people don't care if they're "suboptimal." eg, you can still win even if you're not. And to some, that's even more fun. 

 

That isn't a reason why it should be that way.

 

 

 

suboptimal

What's "optimal"? 90% of encounters in PoE are trash mobs, and the quicker you clean them the more optimal you are in my opinion. If a tank can help with that and hold mobs long enough he is optimal. And if that's not enough, equip Hatchet, largest shield and drink Llengrath's potion - bam, you're optimal for everything but Adra dragon.

 

 

 

I have a potd group currently on level 5 (other saves are stored away and I'm lazy) with the following stats:

Durance about 5k damage done (he only has about half the time in combat from the rest, so I doubled the damage for comparison).

Pallegina and Kana, both 2h + plate armor: both about 6k.

Mother: 7k (doesn't have a blunderbuss yet + mostly supports the PC with mental binding/phantom foes).

Sagani at 10k (which to me is a reasonable difference to "tanks" that are also supporters, considering she is also an offtank with her fox).

PC reach-rogue: bordering 30k.

 

If I replaced one or both of my tanks with a big rock with a sign saying "hit me" on it, I honestly doubt that the difference in killing speed would be noticeable.

 

This. My first playthrough was with a Barbarian on Hard and he had 145000 damage by the end of the game. The closest behind him was Grieving Mother with 40000. Eder and Pallegina didn't even make a dent.

[b0rsuk]

What talents and abilities did you take on Eder ?

[Judicator]

What talents and abilities did you take on Eder ?

Defender, Wary Defender, Weapon Focus/Spec/Mastery, and I can't remember the rest.

[Laz0r]

I don't mind how tanks work in this game, a character really shouldn't be able to have the best of both worlds. The point of the stat system in these games is so that you always lose out on something in order to gain something. If you want to make a balanced character, you can, but they're going to suck hard because they'll be outclassed in every particular role.

[b0rsuk]

Baldur's Gate and company simply didn't give you choice about your fighters. I like being able to customize.

Edited April 26, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Jimmysdabestcop]

It really has a lot to do with party composition. I mean you could Three frontliners and Two 2nd liners with reach weapons and 1 Range. 3 FL, 1 SL, 2 R, or 1 FL ,1 SL and 4 R.

 

The more people you have in front line melee the more of both worlds you can have. You don't need 1 person max defesne and another max DPS you can spread both around.

 

Take the Rogue with Tall Grass or the Barbarian both can go light armor with reach weapons. Rogue will maximize crits while the Barb maxes out on AoE Carnage. Then you could still have 1-3 front line melee character and 1-3 Ranged/SpellCasters. Depending on how you want to set it up.

 

If you are only going 1 Front Liner. Then you might want to Max Defense because he will always be surrounded and you will be lobbing ranged or AoE spells or hitting with reach weapons.

 

But if you are going with 2-3 Frontliners then you can take 2-3 defense talents and the rest class specific or offensive. Like the Monk gets his Monk +8 deflection talent it stacks with Cautious giving another +10. And he can take two weapon talent to cancel out penalty of cautious. So many different combos.

 

Sure if you are playing with all the Difficult Settings at max you have less combos. But normal sky is the limit.

 

You can even get a Priest with High Defense. Go shield. And all defense talents. Pick Skaen and you take talent +10 to clubs and stilettos. Then take ruffian for another +6 to clubs. And clubs have +5 natural. So that is +21. Later +12 once it is superb. You can stick with might around the middle and max out Dex and Int. There are plenty of +3 Might items if not just enchant his armor +2 might. He can still cause OK melee damage becasue even with shield his accuracy will be really high. He can go frontline to cast buff/debuff but the trap spells really shine. Even against the sky dragon those trap spells work.

 

Then there is still the complete balance party. 3 front liners and 3 ranged/spell casters. With 1 ranged being a rogue who can alternate between range and reach. Point lots of options you don't have to worry about the Absolute Perfect Party combination. Even on hard you don't have to worry.

[Judicator]

It really has a lot to do with party composition. I mean you could Three frontliners and Two 2nd liners with reach weapons and 1 Range. 3 FL, 1 SL, 2 R, or 1 FL ,1 SL and 4 R.

 

The more people you have in front line melee the more of both worlds you can have. You don't need 1 person max defesne and another max DPS you can spread both around.

 

Take the Rogue with Tall Grass or the Barbarian both can go light armor with reach weapons. Rogue will maximize crits while the Barb maxes out on AoE Carnage. Then you could still have 1-3 front line melee character and 1-3 Ranged/SpellCasters. Depending on how you want to set it up.

 

If you are only going 1 Front Liner. Then you might want to Max Defense because he will always be surrounded and you will be lobbing ranged or AoE spells or hitting with reach weapons.

 

But if you are going with 2-3 Frontliners then you can take 2-3 defense talents and the rest class specific or offensive. Like the Monk gets his Monk +8 deflection talent it stacks with Cautious giving another +10. And he can take two weapon talent to cancel out penalty of cautious. So many different combos.

 

Sure if you are playing with all the Difficult Settings at max you have less combos. But normal sky is the limit.

 

You can even get a Priest with High Defense. Go shield. And all defense talents. Pick Skaen and you take talent +10 to clubs and stilettos. Then take ruffian for another +6 to clubs. And clubs have +5 natural. So that is +21. Later +12 once it is superb. You can stick with might around the middle and max out Dex and Int. There are plenty of +3 Might items if not just enchant his armor +2 might. He can still cause OK melee damage becasue even with shield his accuracy will be really high. He can go frontline to cast buff/debuff but the trap spells really shine. Even against the sky dragon those trap spells work.

 

Then there is still the complete balance party. 3 front liners and 3 ranged/spell casters. With 1 ranged being a rogue who can alternate between range and reach. Point lots of options you don't have to worry about the Absolute Perfect Party combination. Even on hard you don't have to worry.

Eh, that's not saying much. You could probably solo the game with a character with 10s in everything on Normal.

[Judicator]

Baldur's Gate and company simply didn't give you choice about your fighters. I like being able to customize.

That's not exactly true. A Kensai and a Berserker were very different beasts.