Sabre > Battle axe all day every day

[b0rsuk]

That'd be great. Would testing make so much easier.

Here's a crit on Interdiction. Says 9.5 secs dazed (base: 7 secs). Durance crits for 14.2 http://i.imgur.com/EGuCkcg.jpg

7x1.35=9.45 (base duration + INT bonus) Ofc this is still additive

9.45x1.5=14.175 But this is a multiplier. If there were +crit duration multipliers then those would also be additive among themselves.

 

Maybe a fixed damage spell with the merciless hand (which I think should be global and not only affect weapon damage, but no idea as of now) could enlighten us.

 

So... Damage Over Time attacks seem to be multiplicative ? At least as far as Int is concerned.

 

By the reason this new cRPG system is still new, changes can still happen without ruining level 30 characters. There is "suppressing" effect for stat boosts, for example if you have boots of +5 Perception and girdle of +3 perception, you get +5 Perception and the +3 bonus is suppressed. My point is, a similar mechanism may be added to damage additives. Or something like "only up to 3 damage additives count". That would put end to the speculations that Dex is everything.

Edited April 20, 2015 by b0rsuk

[dukefx]

Nope, that's just how a crit works on duration. I'm assuming crits work the same way on damage, but that needs testing which is not as easy as demonstrating it on a debuff.

[Ineth]

So... Damage Over Time attacks seem to be multiplicative ? At least as far as Int is concerned.

 

By the reason this new cRPG system is still new, changes can still happen without ruining level 30 characters. There is "suppressing" effect for stat boosts, for example if you have boots of +5 Perception and girdle of +3 perception, you get +5 Perception and the +3 bonus is suppressed. My point is, a similar mechanism may be added to damage additives.

 

It already exists. The same stacking rules affect all stats (or are supposed to).

 

I addition to your character's base stat + bonus from the weapon/ability used for the attack itself, you can stack bonuses from 3 different categories:

1. from passive talents / abilities / resting   <-- can have arbitrarily many of these
2. from equipped items   <-- can have only one of these
3. from modal or active buffs   <-- can have only one of these

So the reason why Boots of +5 Perception and Girdle of +3 perception don't stack, is because they're both equipped items (category 2). Whereas, for example, the Wood Elf's Distant Advantage stacks with the Wizard's Eldritch Aim because one is a passive ability, and the other an active one. It has nothing to do with one being an attribute bonus and the other an attack bonus.

[Ineth]

how many weapons can you realistically afford to buy/enchant in a game melee focused team (without console/cheats) ?

 

If you mean enchant to Fine/Exceptional + Lash + Slaying, then more than enough (what with the stronghold generating ingredients and stores selling them, in addition to the ones you loot).

 

If you mean enchant to Superb though, then of course not so much

[Kaigen42]

So... Damage Over Time attacks seem to be multiplicative ? At least as far as Int is concerned.

Essentially. Longer duration from Intellect allows for the effect to tick more. If your Int increase your duration by 50%, you get 50% more ticks, for 50% more total damage (roughly speaking, as there may be breakpoints depending on how frequently the effect ticks). The same applies to heal over time effects.

 

Edit: Just tested Soul Ignition with a 24 Int (70% duration increase) Cipher (Resting bonus FTW). Base duration is 10 seconds. Int-boosted duration is 17 seconds. Crit duration is 25.5 seconds, which means that Intellect and Crits stack multiplicatively for DoT duration. Damage per tick appears to be unaffected.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Kaigen42

[rjshae]

 

Honestly, given the way crits work, they should probably have their stats switched, so that battle axes perform better with large shields, and sabers perform better with 1h fighting.

 

A very sensible suggestion. Less weapons are affected that way, otherwise you'd risk creating new imbalances.

 

This suggestion is also historically accurate as well. The Sabre came into its own as a cavalry weapon because the curved blade works well with the draw cut, whereas the battle ax was typically used with the shield (see Battle of Hastings).

[Elerond]

It seems that in critics all damage modifiers are added together before they are used to multiply weapon's base damage.

 

Because I my character with might 10 and with no talents or abilities that influence damage that weapon does, using superior sabre with +0.5 critical damage multiplier can do less damage [32.1] with critic than double of minimum damage shown in weapon profile [weapon profile shows 19-28] (which shows weapon damage bonus from superior enchantment already added in it)

 

19*(1+0.5+0.5) = 38 (13*1.45 = 18.85 -> 18.85 * (1+0.5+05) = 37.7)

13*(1+0.5+0.5+0.45) = 31.85

 

I think that they should change Battle axes to two handed weapons, because then it would differentiate them better from other weapons, because there is no slash only two handed weapon and its critical multiplier bonus would make them in same way special as reach for pikes and longer interrupt time for morning stars (they probably would become weapon of choice for hard hitter melee rogues). Now they are somewhat weaker version of sabres.

[spacekitten]

Make them slash/crush like their bigger brothers (do the same to hatchets and move interfering property to swords as well pretty please). It'd be better fit with reality anyway. 

[Elerond]

Make them slash/crush like their bigger brothers (do the same to hatchets and move interfering property to swords as well pretty please). It'd be better fit with reality anyway. 

 

Would you then remove slash or pierce from swords' damage types?

[dukefx]

I have no idea how to test this. The level 2 and 3 siphon spells that have fixed damage are unaffected by any kind of damage boost other than the default graze/crit multiplier. When I try it with other spells on a very simple setup: +9% damage from a belt with +3 might and nothing else, just to have a damage multiplier without over complicating things. I just can't get the exact numbers no matter which method I try.

 

Basically I need to guess and multiply base damage (or divide the result) with either 1.59 (everything summed up inc. the crit multiplier) or 1.635 (everything summed up then multiplied by the crit multiplier) to get the amount of damage I just did (or the base damage roll). The latter is easier, but the results aren't even close to integers like 50.1 or 49.9.

 

MPPB, base damage: 50-68

Results:

100.8

84.7

100.2

99.8

98.3

 

Example:

100.8 / 1.59 = 63.396, lets assume the roll was 63, so 63x1.59=100.17 which would be rounded to 100.2

100.8 / 1.635 = 61.65, that will make even less sense

 

84.7 / 1.59 = 53.27 -> 53x1.59=84.27 rounded to 84.3

84.7 / 1.635 = 51.8 -> 52x1.635=85.02 rounded to 85

[PIP-Clownboy]

To make matters worse, the only decent Battle Axes come very late in the game. We Toki is ok but not superb which makes close to worthless unless you use a sky dragon scale considering when you find it and then there is a mediocre one from rng Stronghold merchant which you may never even see. The only really worthwhile battle axe is near the end of Cad Nua. 

Edited April 21, 2015 by PIP-Clownboy

[dukefx]

None of the sabres are superb and the only good one is available in Act 3

[SilchasRuin]

None of the sabres are superb and the only good one is available in Act 3

You're ignoring Resolution, which can be found at level 4 of Od Nua, and can be grabbed when you're at level 4/5 without too much hassle.

Edited April 21, 2015 by SilchasRuin

[peddroelm]

That'd be great. Would testing make so much easier.

 

there ya go

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78239-damage-roll-rng-begone/

[dukefx]

@SilchasRuin

Yes, I'm totally ignoring that because you were talking about good ones.

 

@peddroelm

Cool, will do some testing myself when I get the chance.

Edited April 21, 2015 by dukefx

[Elerond]

@SilchasRuin

Yes, I'm totally ignoring that because you were talking about good ones.

 

 

It is better than any other Sabre or Battle Axe in the game in my opinion, only Wē Toki's special enchantment Disorienting together with Piercing Lash comes close to be as useful as Reliable + Annihilation combo in Resolution. Draining in my opinion is not that good enchantment at all. Of course sometimes getting endurance back is nice, but most times it isn't that exciting.

 

Although some could argue that The Flames of Fair Rhîan's fireball granting enchantment is good, but I don't have found it to be that useful.

[SilchasRuin]

@SilchasRuin

Yes, I'm totally ignoring that because you were talking about good ones.

Anihilation is the exact same modifier battle axes have, so just counting that modifier alone, Resolution is the equivalent of a higher damaging Battle Axe. Reliable isn't anything amazing but it's a decent property nonetheless, especially in the early game. Enchanted up to Superb and given a lash, Resolution is probably better than any other one hander in the game.

[PIP-Clownboy]

 

@SilchasRuin

Yes, I'm totally ignoring that because you were talking about good ones.

 

 

It is better than any other Sabre or Battle Axe in the game in my opinion, only Wē Toki's special enchantment Disorienting together with Piercing Lash 

 

 

We Toki doesn't have those enchancement's in the release version (I assume you're talking about the beta where it was awesome). It just has overbearing now. 

[dukefx]

@Elerond @SilchasRuin

 

It's a fine sabre, by the time you have the igredients to make it at least exceptional you can grab Purgatory and exceptional sabres are available much sooner.

Graze to hit and crit damage do not go well with each other at all. With enough accuracy on normal difficulties you won't be grazing much, and on PotD against high deflection enemies you won't be critting. Draining is one of the best properties for DPS builds.

 

By my count there are 2 good battle axes and only 1 good sabre; none of 'em are available early on.

[SilchasRuin]

@Elerond @SilchasRuin

 

It's a fine sabre, by the time you have the igredients to make it at least exceptional you can grab Purgatory and exceptional sabres are available much sooner.

Graze to hit and crit damage do not go well with each other at all. With enough accuracy on normal difficulties you won't be grazing much, and on PotD against high deflection enemies you won't be critting. Draining is one of the best properties for DPS builds.

 

By my count there are 2 good battle axes and only 1 good sabre; none of 'em are available early on.

Draining is useless on DPS builds with proper micro, it's a great property for Off tanky dps chars, but for dedicated DPS the goal should be to not take damage period. Purgatory isn't bad because of that, but it's not as godlike as you make it out to be. Also the reliable property and anihilation go together fine on characters like a hearth orlan rogue, who can crit a lot even at relatively low accuracy. Normal difficulty is a joke, so I would assume PotD where there are a number of mobs with substantial deflections and other defenses(which make it difficult to land debuffs to deflection) thus Reliable has at least some use on a DPS char.

Edited April 21, 2015 by SilchasRuin

[PIP-Clownboy]

@Elerond @SilchasRuin

 

It's a fine sabre, by the time you have the igredients to make it at least exceptional you can grab Purgatory and exceptional sabres are available much sooner.

Graze to hit and crit damage do not go well with each other at all. With enough accuracy on normal difficulties you won't be grazing much, and on PotD against high deflection enemies you won't be critting. Draining is one of the best properties for DPS builds.

 

By my count there are 2 good battle axes and only 1 good sabre; none of 'em are available early on.

 

You can get the ingredients for exceptional by the time you reach defiance bay so lvl 3-4 at earliest. Resolution is better than any Battle Axe beside Edge of Reason, and arguably better enchanted to superb without even bringing Purgatory into the equation. 

 

The Sabre that shoot fireballs is also extremely useful for high might characters, especially Barbs, as it gives them a reliable ranged option.

Edited April 21, 2015 by PIP-Clownboy

[dukefx]

@SilchasRuin Easy there. You are acting like a cornered animal already. You are talking utter nonsense and imagine things that aren't there.

 

@RIP-Clownboy St Gyran's Horn, Ruby and Vithrack Brain at level 3-4? Really?!

Wē Toki is also a nice weapon. At least it's a pure crit weapon and not some stupid mix. On top of that you are forgetting enchantment slots. Crit damage on battle axes do not count as enchantments. Both mentioned sabres are at 10/12 when enchanted to superb, while both mentioned battle axes are at 8/12 leaving enough room for both a lash and a slayer.

[SilchasRuin]

@SilchasRuin Easy there. You are acting like a cornered animal already. You are talking utter nonsense and imagine things that aren't there.

 

@RIP-Clownboy St Gyran's Horn, Ruby and Vithrack Brain at level 3-4? Really?!

Wē Toki is also a nice weapon. At least it's a pure crit weapon and not some stupid mix. On top of that you are forgetting enchantment slots. Crit damage on battle axes do not count as enchantments. Both mentioned sabres are at 10/12 when enchanted to superb, while both mentioned battle axes are at 8/12 leaving enough room for both a lash and a slayer.

What? I'm not quite sure how you're getting that from  my response, I'm only noting the strengths of Resolution. Idk where you're getting that I'm "talking utter nonsense and imagining things that aren't there". All I'm saying is: the base quality isn't that important, draining isn't a great dps enchantment, "normal difficulties" are irrelevant, and reliable isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

 

Slayer is a pretty mediocre enchant, way worse than reliable unless you're particularly enchanting for a specific area/boss/bounty/etc.

Edited April 21, 2015 by SilchasRuin

[Elerond]

 

 

@SilchasRuin

Yes, I'm totally ignoring that because you were talking about good ones.

 

 

It is better than any other Sabre or Battle Axe in the game in my opinion, only Wē Toki's special enchantment Disorienting together with Piercing Lash 

 

 

We Toki doesn't have those enchancement's in the release version (I assume you're talking about the beta where it was awesome). It just has overbearing now. 

 

 

I looked them from strategy guide (which seems to have quite lot false information in it, I feel bit bad for all those people that bought hard covered copy of it) as I hadn't picked it up for any of my characters as I haven't used Battle Axes with any of my characters.. 

[dukefx]

 

@SilchasRuin Easy there. You are acting like a cornered animal already. You are talking utter nonsense and imagine things that aren't there.

 

@RIP-Clownboy St Gyran's Horn, Ruby and Vithrack Brain at level 3-4? Really?!

Wē Toki is also a nice weapon. At least it's a pure crit weapon and not some stupid mix. On top of that you are forgetting enchantment slots. Crit damage on battle axes do not count as enchantments. Both mentioned sabres are at 10/12 when enchanted to superb, while both mentioned battle axes are at 8/12 leaving enough room for both a lash and a slayer.

What? I'm not quite sure how you're getting that from  my response, I'm only noting the strengths of Resolution. Idk where you're getting that I'm "talking utter nonsense and imagining things that aren't there". All I'm saying is: the base quality isn't that important, draining isn't a great dps enchantment, "normal difficulties" are irrelevant, and reliable isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

 

Slayer is a pretty mediocre enchant, way worse than reliable unless you're particularly enchanting for a specific area/boss/bounty/etc.

 

Well, it pretty much seemed like it to me. Sorry if I offended you with that remark.

 

I'd need a wall of text here for each of your arguments and it's 1:50am already, so I'll make it extremely short.

 

Reliabe is good, I never said it's crap, but it's not something for crit builds while the crit multiplier is. Bringing in hearth orlans into the equation won't change that.

 

I never said Purgatory was godly, but I find draining to be extremely useful. My melee rogue can tank (unless she gets CC'd and while health lasts ofc), is a DPS beast and an off tank at the same time.