Are Paladins really not that bad?

[MoxyWoo]

Mmm...  reminds me of my build.  Went for Liberating and Inspiring at 5/6 since the paladin was starting to lag behind the other people who could deal more and do more with that accuracy.

[Raven Darkholme]

5 is even better.

In solo Dex is actually really good, I maxed it out.^^

[MadDemiurg]

If you dump intelligence you might as well skip the darcozzi talents - no need to bother with that duration. You also pick FoD over LoH to get it and the latter is better and much more consistent. Going without W&S style up to level 6 is asking for trouble on a tank build imo.

 

My non solo Darcozzi build was: 17-18 Might, Int, Per, Res, min Con and Dex. For my solo attempt I used more Con and Dex and dumped Int (also used a different order). Talents/abilities (non solo)  -

2 - W&S style

3 - Zealous focus

4 - Cautious attack

5 - Liberating

6 - Inspiring

7 - Sworn enemy

8 - Deep faith

9 - Reinforcing

10 - Superior deflection

11 - Hastening

12 - Bear's fortitude

 

Ended up being a decent scroll/spellbind user. Had white spire as a backup weapon and opened fights with blizzard .

 

On a solo build, If you waste talents on stuff like Fires of Darcozzi palace or weapon focus, you won't have enough defences to deal with endgame content like the last levels of Od Nua. For stroty only optimal build is not required really.

Edited April 29, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[b0rsuk]

If you dump intelligence you might as well skip the darcozzi talents - no need to bother with that duration. You also pick FoD over LoH to get it and the latter is better and much more consistent. Going without W&S style up to level 6 is asking for trouble on a tank build imo.

 

I didn't say it was a smart idea, just that that's what devs suggested. Those stars next to attributes at character creation. Personally I'd rather dump Perception, Constitution even if it means having my paladin with a reaching weapon. A Darcozzi might call for more tankiness, while a Kind Wayfarer more melee power, Might at the cost of Dexterity and so on. If you really like LoH so much, maybe Shielders are for you.

 

Anyway, this system was supposed to have no dumpstats. In this aspect, paladins appear to be one of better designed classes, not worse. Being starved for attributes means all stats are important.

Edited April 29, 2015 by b0rsuk

[gkathellar]

Sworn Enemy is mainly worthwhile if (a) you've already got a cleric in the party to cast Suppress Affliction, (b) if you've dumped Int so badly that Liberating Exhortation has no value, or © you're playing solo, and need something to bolster your offense to borderline acceptable levels.

 

Otherwise, it's really not worth it.

 

 

If you dump intelligence you might as well skip the darcozzi talents - no need to bother with that duration. You also pick FoD over LoH to get it and the latter is better and much more consistent. Going without W&S style up to level 6 is asking for trouble on a tank build imo.

 

I didn't say it was a smart idea, just that that's what devs suggested. Those stars next to attributes at character creation. Personally I'd rather dump Perception, Constitution even if it means having my paladin with a reaching weapon. A Darcozzi might call for more tankiness, while a Kind Wayfarer more melee power, Might at the cost of Dexterity and so on. If you really like LoH so much, maybe Shielders are for you.

 

The point here is that Fires of Darcozzi Palace is incompatible with its own play style. Skipping out on LoH and investing in Int makes you a worse tank. Fires depends on your tanking. This is the opposite of synergy.

 

Also Shieldbearer LoH talent lol

Edited April 29, 2015 by gkathellar

[b0rsuk]

I think +10 deflection on heal is good. It helps to make sure the ally is not knocked out before healing takes effect.

[MoxyWoo]

I think lower int is viable, but I thought most of the encounters didn't warrant a ~8 second increase at max int.  And its still long enough even at the lowest int due to the duration of Inspiring.

 

The main thing that suffers flooring INT is actually Flames of Devotion > Fires for Darcozzi I noticed.  You initially only have 15 seconds of the Fires, so for longer fights, the INT comes in handy.  Finally, I used Moon race so lay on hands was a puzzler to me.... I mean... I actually need to use some animation to cast a heal?   WAH?!  Where as Flames was still instant and a hit of a weapon and fire shield and produced no recovery time for the swinging.

Edited April 29, 2015 by MoxyWoo

[Raven Darkholme]

You guys don't realize you don't use LoH that often if you are moon gdlk. Flames you use EVERY fight. IN needs to be at least 8. I also have CO down to 7 and MI 8. As soon as you're in Defiance Bay you run around with +8 to the stat of your choice anyway due to free salty mast whores.

[MadDemiurg]

LoH has much more impact when it's used though, at least earlygame. If you swing 100 times in an encounter (likely more since your damage is "awesome") flames are 1% dps increase on average. I also wouldn't go moon as a paladin, wild orlan is better imo (depends on the fight though, but definitely better for dragons). 

 

If you have 8 CO and 7 Mi adra dragon and petrify mobs are gonna be very challenging if possible at all (you need sky high fort for them).

 

+8 to stat? how? Most of them give like +2. Is there some stacking trick I don't know? Btw whores are not always free. It probably depends on some stat. Most likely Dex :D (my low dex main wasn't able to get their services for free).

Edited April 29, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Raven Darkholme]

Let's talk real early game. First map with wolves and Glanfarthans attacking the caravan. You can't rest here and your health goes down slowly. If you killed Calisca, like I did when you reach the last fight your hp are merely above your endurance. In the fights before as gdlk you didn't need to use LoH and if you don't have Flames you lost more hp in needing longer to kill. You get to that last fight and finally could use LoH but bam your health is, low. ;p

Ofc you can rest later but the moral of the story remains you use flames all the time and fires are useful in the beginning, no contest.

 

As to stats pushes, just wear an item with +2 for example bracers for might. Rest at an inn with +2 for example dyrford. Go to the dwarven whore upstairs in mast for might and con bonus. Finally before the fight eat ducs bedfloaf and voila. I have 17 might for almost every fight even though my base was 8.

[MadDemiurg]

That's a bit too situational . You have no problem resting throughout the game. I wouldn't rate build effectiveness based on the tutorial map performance. As for stats boost, yes. I just thought you were saying you get +8 from whores alone.

 

And yes, fires are useful at the start no doubt, you have only 6 talents though and you also delay useful defensive talents with it. So you're effectively trading better mid/endgame for easier earlygame.

Edited April 29, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[CriticalFailure]

If you're a moon godlike, if Calisca is dead, if you're in a certain area. If, if, if.

 

I went with LoH on my last paladin (who, by the way, didn't happen to be a moonlike). Previously I had taken FoD, but I didn't find them making a noticeable difference, and as the game progressed, I stopped bothering to use them in many fights. At least LoH can't miss the target.

[Raven Darkholme]

If you're a moon godlike, if Calisca is dead, if you're in a certain area. If, if, if.I went with LoH on my last paladin (who, by the way, didn't happen to be a moonlike). Previously I had taken FoD, but I didn't find them making a noticeable difference, and as the game progressed, I stopped bothering to use them in many fights. At least LoH can't miss the target.

Solo Potd?

[MadDemiurg]

You don't need to kill Calisca or be a moon godlike to solo PotD .

[Raven Darkholme]

You don't need to kill Calisca or be a moon godlike to solo PotD .

You do need to get rid of her or its no true solo.

Moonlike is the best race by far, sorry but its a fact. :d

[gkathellar]

Frankly, FoD is at its absolute worst in PotD, since it's likely to miss.

 

If you're really desperate for retaliation damage, actual retaliation items, Battle-Forged, and/or Mantle of Wreathing Flame are outright better than Fires of Darcozzi Palace. I can totally see Fire helping out up through clearing Caed Nua ... but I've cleared Caed Nua without it on PotD solo, so it's clearly not necessary. And since it's a bad investment in the long run, I don't see much argument for it in the long term. It's one fewer actual defense talent, and the loss of Lay on Hands.

 

Moonlike is the best race by far, sorry but its a fact. :d

 

... so?

 

(And of course that's putting aside the loss of Defiant Resolve, which is huge for the game's tougher fights.)

[CriticalFailure]

Solo Potd?

Party hard (pun intended). But I don't see that making a difference in this case. Nor I consider solo POTD to be the default setting for generic discussions, anyway.

 

At any rate, both FOD and LOH are kinda lame. Even with the "wrong" pick, if such a thing exists, I don't think you'll be missing much.

[MadDemiurg]

 

You don't need to kill Calisca or be a moon godlike to solo PotD .

You do need to get rid of her or its no true solo.

Moonlike is the best race by far, sorry but its a fact. :d

 

Solo achievement is granted if you do not recruit anyone after Ciant Lys (or whatever it's called). If you feel like using her somehow breaks solo rules you can just park her in the corner of the map.

 

Moonlike is OP, but for paladin wild orlan is probably better for really tough fights.

Edited April 29, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Raven Darkholme]

I don't care much for achievements and if you park her you will take the same damage as if you killed her.

[b0rsuk]

Consider a fighter specced for tanking:

Knock Down - Shoves an enemy with enormous force, knocking them Prone but causing little damage.

Defender - The fighter adopts a more conservative combat strategy, concentrating on defending incoming attacks. The fighter receives a bonus to Deflection and increases his or her number of Engagement targets to three, but at the expense of Attack Rate.

Guardian - Lowers the fighter's Accuracy but increases Deflection for allies within a short range.

 

It certainly looks like Fighter sacrifices more than opportunity cost of choosing another ability. He becomes a harmless decoy. A defensive totem. By contrast, even the tankiest paladin doesn't suffer any offensive penalties. Unless you take the offensive talent Cautious Attack, but it's hard to blame Paladins for a general talent being available to all. Two of these are modal abilities, and yes you can turn them off, but Paladin doesn't need to turn them off.

 

...ironically, the way auras work encourages multiple paladins, not aura switching!

Edited April 29, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Raven Darkholme]

Now I've seen everything being a Darcozzi helped me in the fight against Orneros I didn't have to fight any barbarians just him and two regular bears. :d

[MadDemiurg]

Consider a fighter specced for tanking:

Knock Down - Shoves an enemy with enormous force, knocking them Prone but causing little damage.

Defender - The fighter adopts a more conservative combat strategy, concentrating on defending incoming attacks. The fighter receives a bonus to Deflection and increases his or her number of Engagement targets to three, but at the expense of Attack Rate.

Guardian - Lowers the fighter's Accuracy but increases Deflection for allies within a short range.

 

It certainly looks like Fighter sacrifices more than opportunity cost of choosing another ability. He becomes a harmless decoy. A defensive totem. By contrast, even the tankiest paladin doesn't suffer any offensive penalties. Unless you take the offensive talent Cautious Attack, but it's hard to blame Paladins for a general talent being available to all. Two of these are modal abilities, and yes you can turn them off, but Paladin doesn't need to turn them off.

 

...ironically, the way auras work encourages multiple paladins, not aura switching!

KD is still > FoD any time of day.

Defender is a vastly improved version of cautious attack basically (which paladin would also take).

Guardian is not usable with Defender and is crap all things considered.

 

You're forgetting weapon mastery, armored grace and confident aim which together make fighter a better offensive class than paladin imo.

Edited April 29, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[b0rsuk]

My point still stands that three of Fighter's commonly used abilities reduce damage he deals. You need to invest in extra offensive skills to reach damage dealt by Paladin in tank mode.

Cautious Attack is completely optional, you can't force me to take it.

Edited April 29, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Longknife]

My point still stands that three of Fighter's commonly used abilities reduce damage he deals. You need to invest in extra offensive skills to reach damage dealt by Paladin in tank mode.

Cautious Attack is completely optional, you can't force me to take it.

 

 

Then why, in the two videos we were given with Paladin and Fighter both solo'ing the Sky dragon, do they have seemingly identical kill times despite the fact that Fighter had no summon assistance and Paladin did?

 

 

Can we also talk about how the people defending Paladins are also currently in the process of arguing Darcozzi Paladini, aka 1/5th of all Paladin builds, is perfectly fine and therefore Paladin is fine? Again, there's clearly a problem if this is what the discussion ends up being like.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Longknife

[MadDemiurg]

My point still stands that three of Fighter's commonly used abilities reduce damage he deals. You need to invest in extra offensive skills to reach damage dealt by Paladin in tank mode.

Cautious Attack is completely optional, you can't force me to take it.

You can't force fighter to use defender either (although not using it would be stupid). Guardian is a trash skill. not a commonly used skill. Paladin also needs to invest in offensive skills to deal any damage above the baseline - Zealous Focus over Endurance, FoD over LoH, Sworn Enemy over Exhortations. Without extra skills damage is exactly the same for both classes.

Edited April 29, 2015 by MadDemiurg