Are Paladins really that bad?

[Ruminate]

 

Monk's torment's reach 50% crush damage works the same way ( 50% of the total damage, which make is multiplicative ) ..

 

 

And again, Monk can spam the ever living hell out of his.

 

 

You can't use it with an arquebus.

 

But yes, yes, I get it. You don't care about the Paladin's support abilities at all. You won't rest until the Paladin is equal to other strikers, or equal to a tank, thereby obsoleting other strikers and tanks by virtue of also having better support.

[eubatham]

Monk's torment's reach 50% crush damage works the same way ( 50% of the total damage, which make is multiplicative ) ..

 

Right, I have the feeling you're wording it differently than what is usually meant when it comes to calculating damage in games. Calling +50% multiplicative implies that it would multiply with other similar effects. I.e. Torment's Reach deals + 50% crush damage. If it was multiplicative and you'd deal an additional source of crush damage (let's say +20%), it would mean +60% crush damage total instead of +75% total crush damage.

 

You've done the math wrong, it's actually 1.5*1.25*1.25 for the multiplicative case which would be 2.34, or a 134% damage increase compared to the 100% damage increase given by additive modifiers. It's possible % elemental damage functions as an additive damage modifier to itself and multiplicative with base damage modifiers.

 

 

That depends how you decide to multiply, I was going from tooltips like Intense Flames that state "Modifies Flames of Devotion to deal +25% flame damage", which could imply +50% * 1.25%. If you'd then add another modifier in the same way (+25% burn damage), I'd would be 62.5 * 1.25. Not saying you're wrong, just that you're taking a different route than I am.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, that seems to comply with what I mean. I think it's just a mixed messages that we're sending each other, while meaning the same thing. I have noticed that you have the same anomaly when it comes to Flame of Devotion damage, though.

Edited April 15, 2015 by eubatham

[Longknife]

 

 

Monk's torment's reach 50% crush damage works the same way ( 50% of the total damage, which make is multiplicative ) ..

 

 

And again, Monk can spam the ever living hell out of his.

 

 

You can't use it with an arquebus.

 

But yes, yes, I get it. You don't care about the Paladin's support abilities at all. You won't rest until the Paladin is equal to other strikers, or equal to a tank, thereby obsoleting other strikers and tanks by virtue of also having better support.

 

 

No...

 

What I'm saying is that while it's great Paladin can use a very specific setup of Flames + Arquebus to get a free kill or two, that alone is not enough to carry Paladin's weight as a viable option. This would be quite helpful for the boss like encounters, but very very poor in larger encounters with multiple enemies, where 176 damage is absolute overkill and the Monk or Rogue or Cipher's ability to consistently hit for 40-50 damage is going to help the team out more. The Paladin would overkill a mob, then spend the rest of the fight reloading while the other three drop everything and everyone they touch without pause. It's very nice that Paladin can do that, don't get me wrong, but it's still somewhat specialized in both the way it needs to happen (Arquebus is specifically named, which I believe it's accuracy is not so great. I can name at least one boss aside from the adra dragon and endgame boss I'd expect misses on) and in when it really shines.

 

  What I'm saying is that alone will not carry Paladin's weight in a squad. That comparison feels similar to Wizard. Why? Wizard is an often criticized class, and yet it or Druid is considered a fundamental part of any team. Why? Because if you get into a huge battle with tons of little moblets running around, Wizard or Druid practically feels like a requirement to come out of there alive. These two will do clean up duty like no one else, and you'll feel your team overwhelmed without them. Outside of such fights though? You expect Cipher to outperform the Wizard for the smaller-scale fights, with Wizard being an ace in the hole limited to two per encounter spells for normal fights. Paladin now has this same effect but with bosses, the problem being that Paladin would be a luxury for bosses rather than a neccesity. It needs more in order to step past that, namely it needs a boost to either it's abilities as a tank or it's abilities as a support.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Longknife

[Ruminate]

 

 

 

Monk's torment's reach 50% crush damage works the same way ( 50% of the total damage, which make is multiplicative ) ..

 

 

And again, Monk can spam the ever living hell out of his.

 

 

You can't use it with an arquebus.

 

But yes, yes, I get it. You don't care about the Paladin's support abilities at all. You won't rest until the Paladin is equal to other strikers, or equal to a tank, thereby obsoleting other strikers and tanks by virtue of also having better support.

 

 

No...

 

What I'm saying is that while it's great Paladin can use a very specific setup of Flames + Arquebus to get a free kill or two, that alone is not enough to carry Paladin's weight as a viable option. This would be quite helpful for the boss like encounters, but very very poor in larger encounters with multiple enemies, where 176 damage is absolute overkill and the Monk or Rogue or Cipher's ability to consistently hit for 40-50 damage is going to help the team out more. The Paladin would overkill a mob, then spend the rest of the fight reloading while the other three drop everything and everyone they touch without pause. It's very nice that Paladin can do that, don't get me wrong, but it's still somewhat specialized in both the way it needs to happen (Arquebus is specifically named, which I believe it's accuracy is not so great. I can name at least one boss aside from the adra dragon and endgame boss I'd expect misses on) and in when it really shines.

 

  What I'm saying is that alone will not carry Paladin's weight in a squad. That comparison feels similar to Wizard. Why? Wizard is an often criticized class, and yet it or Druid is considered a fundamental part of any team. Why? Because if you get into a huge battle with tons of little moblets running around, Wizard or Druid practically feels like a requirement to come out of there alive. These two will do clean up duty like no one else, and you'll feel your team overwhelmed without them. Outside of such fights though? You expect Cipher to outperform the Wizard for the smaller-scale fights, with Wizard being an ace in the hole limited to two per encounter spells for normal fights. Paladin now has this same effect but with bosses, the problem being that Paladin would be a luxury for bosses rather than a neccesity. It needs more in order to step past that, namely it needs a boost to either it's abilities as a tank or it's abilities as a support.

 

 

Who said Flames of Devotion alone is enough to carry a Paladin's weight in a team? Like I said, you don't care about the Paladin's support abilities at all.

 

Zealous Focus, Critical Focus Reinforcing Exortation, Hastening Exortation, Inspiring Triumph, The Bleak Path... the monk has none of that. And yes, you can take all of those abilities and still snipe enemies with Flames of Devotion. Of course, you made it perfectly clear that you don't care about the support abilities.

 

Also, if accuracy was a problem with a bleak walker sniper, itd be an even bigger problem on the monk. If the character I tested on was a wood elf and took marksman instead of fast runner, the character would have 102 self-buffed accuracy. 107 accuracy with the right gloves. 116 accuracy with an eldritch aim potion. That number includes the penalty from using firearms. The monk tops out at 81 self-buffed accuracy. 86 accuracy with the right gloves. 101 accuracy with an eldritch aim potion.

[Ruminate]

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, that seems to comply with what I mean. I think it's just a mixed messages that we're sending each other, while meaning the same thing. I have noticed that you have the same anomaly when it comes to Flame of Devotion damage, though.

 

 

No. I understand what you mean. The problem is the following line:

 

The only exceptions to this rule are Critical Strikes and talents like Scion of Flame, a talent that increases certain specific damage types (although it is currently bugged and does not affect abilities like Flames of Devotion or weapon enchants).

 

 

When you look at my logs, what you aren't taking into account is that the pierce damage is calculating damage bonuses from superb enchant(45%), might(39%), crits(40%), and sworn enemy(15%).

The additional +100% burn damage isn't additive with the 45, 39, 40, and 15. Its multiplying the total damage by 2.

 

Crits are additive and not multiplicative. If you have +200% damage and you crit for another 50%, then your total bonus damage is 250%.

Lashes are multiplicative and not additive. If you have +200% damage and you deal another +100% lash damage, then your total damage is +400%.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Ruminate

[Brimsurfer]

But Is there a way to get a killing blow consistently with the Bleak Walker to keep enemies debuffed?

 

Because among the heavy hitters like rogues and rangers and aoe nukers like druids and wizards, I don't see Paladins getting killing blows, specially in PotD as enemies are relatively more resilient.....

Edited April 15, 2015 by Brimsurfer

[Longknife]

Who said Flames of Devotion alone is enough to carry a Paladin's weight in a team? Like I said, you don't care about the Paladin's support abilities at all.

 

 

Because they suck balls.

 

 

 

Zealous Focus, Critical Focus Reinforcing Exortation, Hastening Exortation, Inspiring Triumph, The Bleak Path

 

 

Zealous Focus and it's Critical Focus do not stack with Priest buffs, and I'll be damned if I'd replace a Priest with a Paladin. Likewise, the range on those sucks, to the point where a paladin in the front lines cannot expect to reliably hit the spellcasters in the back with the buff. You could argue "but then you don't have to bother with those buffs from Priest!" Well one, the accuracy one is a split second considering you can get it on their insta-cast heal. Two, while that's nice, it hardly carries the Paladin's weight. It's a luxury convenience, not a huge help to the team.

 

  Reinforcing and Hastening Exortation are good, but these are end-game. EVERY endgame skill is good. My Fighter can insta-revive endgame. My Monk can teleport around the room like a ninja. My Wizard can AOE stun like it's nothing. Comparatively, these are still kind meh. Hastening is per rest, and both are single target. No idea why Paladin suffers from an inability to AOE with it's buffs, cause a lot of them could be much better if they were AOE.

 

 

The answer to all of the abilities you named is "why not bring a Priest instead?"

 

 

Typically the issue with Paladin's abilities is they're too specific.

 

 

Example? I can name two battle types where I would love to have a Paladin for Liberating Exortation. (....if it were an AOE. I mean still good but AOE would be much better) But these are two out of all of the dozens of battle types you encounter within the game. I'm not bringing a Paladin along for a skill that's useful .05% of the time.

 

That's exactly the category Flames of Devotion falls into. Bringing a Paladin with an Arquebus along for taking out boss enemies? Sounds like a solid idea....but by no means a neccesity, nor is it a regularity.

 

And all of the accuracy bonuses provided by a Paladin? Devotions of the Faithful. Priest absolutely curbstomps Paladin. Yes, Paladin is consistent and provides it's bonuses every battle, but sometimes I simply do not need the bonus every battle. So if I have a choice between a constant +6 accuracy bonus from a Paladin for when I fight a wolf, when I fight a sick xaurip, and when I fight 20 ogres simultaneously, or instead I could get a  Priest's +20 accuracy and + 4 Might bonus for only one out of three of those fights, but have it for the toughest one? You better believe I'm taking the Priest.

 

Providing a small bonus is simply not superior to providing a large bonus when it's absolutely vital. That's kind of the issue with Paladin. Paladin's 2 per encounter Liberating Exortations feel like a freaking joke compared to the AOE version the Priest gets, even if the Priest's is only 4 per rest. I don't need to remove a prone effect every time it happens in every encounter, I DO desperately need to remove that bull**** fly swarm spell that slowly eats the squad's endurance away and I do need to remove that ASAP, meaning with an AOE.

 

 

  As I said in my thread, the problem is Paladin is too lackluster in every category currently. It needs some overhauls in practically every area. Offensively....? I'm just one person, so I cannot decide if the community would be satisfied with Flames of Devotion being undeniably useful with an Arquebus but not neccesarily with a Mace or Sword. That's just kind of territory where some people might mind feeling "required" to stick to a weapon type since I know some dislike the guns, but personally I got no beef with it.

[Ruminate]

 

 

 

There are 6 party slots. The question isn't "why take a paladin over a priest". Its "why take 2 priests instead of a paladin and a priest". Better yet, why take a chanter over a paladin?

 

Also, please stop giving incorrect examples of things you've never tested. Devotions of the Faithful does not buff spell accuracy. It also stacks with Zealous Focus.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Ruminate

[Longknife]

Better yet, why take a chanter over a paladin?

 

 

You serious here?

 

This is exactly the problem: you can quicker justify any class besides Paladin. Paladin can res, Chanter can AOE res ad infinium, or use the chant points to do something else amazing. While Paladin gets the one res that provides that weird endurance debuff, Chanter can continue to res with enough time and can res AOE multiple people. Chanter constantly provides buffs that other classes cannot, such as faster reload speed and a burning weapon effect similar to Flames of Devotion, except for the whole squad. Why bring a Paladin over a Chanter is the real question. Ask around dude, Chanter is going to be in most people's top three or top four favorite classes. Please, seriously, go look at the list of all the buffs a Chanter can provide and then come here and tell me with a straight face that a Paladin's buffs are better.

 

 

 

And Devotions of the Faithful definitely does buff spell accuracy. Saw a guy whose entire strategy for PoTD was to buff the hell out of his Wizard's accuracy, specifically by combining Eldrich Aim and Devotions of the Faithful alongside one more buff iirc (probably the Priest's crit buff). Just AOE crit everything that way thanks to the +35 accuracy total, alongside the Might bonus for extra damage. Even if, for the sake of argument, this were not the case, that would not change that the range on Paladin buff zones is horrendous and you can hardly guarentee to be within range of the Wiz all the time.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Longknife

[Ram]

 

TL,DR Paladins are meant to kill stuff .. I think they work better in a  (somewhat tanky as protagonist) high damage dealer role than full decoy mode .. And should be more fun to play that way.. Damage scrolls can be used to trigger on kill effects (I might be wrong but I seem to remember paladin getting better scroll accuracy than chanter ).. 

 

 

No.

 

Wanna know why?

A Monk's Torment's Reach is identical to Paladin's Flames of Devotion, except with Crush damage instead of flame damage. The difference is the Monk can spam Torment's Reach back to back and can easily get 6+ wounds to spam it with. A Paladin is capped at two and doesn't attack nearly as relentlessly as Monk.

 

It's also important to note that 50% additional damage = a crit. So classes like Rogue and Ranger are easily outpacing Paladin just by critting reliably as they do. Paladin cannot hold a candle to any of these three classes. A guarenteed crit is nice, but not when half your team can do it far better than you.

 

Knockdown isn't that good it lasts to short.

Endurance regen isn't that good moon godlikes and priests trivialize it.

LoH is really awesome, also a paladin doesn't get stunned easily, with level 4 he already has over 80 Fortitude without any buffs and items whatsoever except protection-ring. If you had a talent for Fortitude and max CO (80 is with 10 CO and mx MI) you would have over 100 Fortitude and Phantoms wouldn't even stun you if they gangbang you.

The engfagement is really good but as I said it doesn't help against teleporting and beetles. Other melees rarely get through to the squishies if you position right.

 

 

Isn't that good...? Prone means the target is easier to hit and takes more damage, and a proned target can easily buy time to save the fight. Sometimes the target you're proning spams stun or charm and having that guy on his butt is the window you need.

 

Your second argument is also odd, as you're basically saying "what Moon Godlike and Priests can do is really good and useful. Therefore, because the Fighter does the exact same thing to a smaller, more consistent degree, it's worthless." Lolwat no. Healed endurance is healed endurance, and it's VERY useful. The Fighter can essentially negate an entire opponent this way, something the Paladin cannot.

 

The Fortitude argument has little to do with Paladin vs. anyone else and more to do with the build. Some paladins will get stunned quite easily, some will not, just like with any class.

 

You also mention engagement won't help with certain enemies. Guess what will? Fighter's aggro pull move. Once you use it, the enemy it's used on immediately targets the Fighter, no matter how far the Fighter may be.

 

 

 

He don't need special abilities, as long as the stats are right - he'll own what he is and that's what I'm about in reality!

 

 

Then you've missed the point entirely.

 

Losing a Fighter or a Monk is a big deal because both can assist the team by drawing aggro, killing quickly (monk) or knocking the opponent on it's butt. This benefits the entire team. Paladin's raw defenses benefit absolutely nobody except himself. The Paladin will not accomplish anything with raw defense and no skills to show for it aside from being the last one to die....if that, because as stated, the Fighter easily outpaces Paladin with regen abilities.

 

 

I don't know, he hasn't needed to use anything for as long as I can remember.

[eubatham]

 

No. I understand what you mean. The problem is the following line:

 

The only exceptions to this rule are Critical Strikes and talents like Scion of Flame, a talent that increases certain specific damage types (although it is currently bugged and does not affect abilities like Flames of Devotion or weapon enchants).

 

 

When you look at my logs, what you aren't taking into account is that the pierce damage is calculating damage bonuses from superb enchant(45%), might(39%), crits(40%), and sworn enemy(15%).

The additional +100% burn damage isn't additive with the 45, 39, 40, and 15. Its multiplying the total damage by 2.

 

Crits are additive and not multiplicative. If you have +200% damage and you crit for another 50%, then your total bonus damage is 250%.

Lashes are multiplicative and not additive. If you have +200% damage and you deal another +100% lash damage, then your total damage is +400%.

 

 

Sigh if you want to split hairs, fine. Quality enchants, The Might Attribute and Sworn Enemy are Total Damage Modifiers, not additional effects, no. They specifically state x total damage, same with critical strikes (I quote from the ingame cyclopedia: "increases the total damage done by 50%"), and not +% damage like effect. If it wasn't, if it was additive, other additional damage effects wouldn't be affected other than weapon damage (unless they would make another exception to the rulebook).

 

Additional critical damage is also additive from that regard, just like Torment's Reach (+50% Crush damage) will be additive with any other ability that adds additional Crush damage (but critical strike is only additive to itself, and multiplicative with effects, unlike normal effects). Like I said, there are a small amount of specific traits, like scion of flame, that state "Adds +20% damage to burn damage" while being multiplicative with Burn Damage and not additive, but generally this is not the case. Flames of Devotion adds +50% fire damage and Intense Flames add +25% damage to FoD, to end up with +75% additional fire damage, not 62.5%. If you add your Flame Lash from the enchant to that, that's another additive +25% fire damage. If you add another extra damage effect type to that, it's added to the pile of damage, not multiplied in any way.

 

And before you might go 'that's not true, it multiplies with your weapon damage!', that's true, but again, I'm talking about (generally) additional effects from the same damage type. Having to specify that total burn damage is multiplicative with your weapon damage is the same as saying it's additive to your weapon damage, so no, I didn't specify that nor should you expect it to be specified. It's what the % derives its value from, not thin air.

 

So could end up with (((weapon damage)+(weapon damage * burn((+25+25+25) * scion))) + (weapon damage * corrosive(+25)) * modifier) * modifier). Although you could also apply the modifiers to the weapon damage component (before additional damage is calculated), instead of total damage. It varies from game system to game system.

Edited April 15, 2015 by eubatham

[Ruminate]

 

Better yet, why take a chanter over a paladin?

 

 

You serious here?

 

This is exactly the problem: you can quicker justify any class besides Paladin. Paladin can res, Chanter can AOE res ad infinium, or use the chant points to do something else amazing. While Paladin gets the one res that provides that weird endurance debuff, Chanter can continue to res with enough time and can res AOE multiple people. Chanter constantly provides buffs that other classes cannot, such as faster reload speed and a burning weapon effect similar to Flames of Devotion, except for the whole squad. Why bring a Paladin over a Chanter is the real question. Ask around dude, Chanter is going to be in most people's top three or top four favorite classes. Please, seriously, go look at the list of all the buffs a Chanter can provide and then come here and tell me with a straight face that a Paladin's buffs are better.

 

 

 

And Devotions of the Faithful definitely does buff spell accuracy. Saw a guy whose entire strategy for PoTD was to buff the hell out of his Wizard's accuracy, specifically by combining Eldrich Aim and Devotions of the Faithful alongside one more buff iirc (probably the Priest's crit buff). Just AOE crit everything that way thanks to the +35 accuracy total, alongside the Might bonus for extra damage. Even if, for the sake of argument, this were not the case, that would not change that the range on Paladin buff zones is horrendous and you can hardly guarentee to be within range of the Wiz all the time.

 

+10 reflex and +move speed. Great for soloing.

-4 enemy endurance every 6 seconds. Great if you're in a party with 6 Chanters.

+10 fort and +10 will buff to the party. Paladins have access to a buckler that provides +5 to all defenses to the party.

-10 enemy concentration.Yea... no.

Enemies deal 10% less slashing and piercing damage. Nope.

+10 defense against freigned and terrify. Nope.

-10 enemy disengagement accuracy. ....

A frost trap appears when the Chanter starts moving. Great for soloing.

Freigtened debuff. Bleak Walkers can do that when they kill an enemy.

1.2x ranged attack speed and 1.2x reload speed. Paladins can increase spell speed, melee speed, ranged speed, and reload speed by 1.2x

+10 deflection for all allies. Paladins can increase deflection by +15 on the targets that are actually tanking.

+40 fire and +40 slash damage every 12 seconds. Its a great chant if you're soloing.... or if you're abusing a certain bug.

+25% burn lash for all allies. A great chant. Probably their best one if you're in a team. Too bad you can only pick it at level 9.

 

The most important thing to keep in mind is that you can't have more than 1 chant up without cutting into the duration of another chant. Intellect has no effect on the duration of chants either, despite the description.

 

If we're going to talk about invocations, they're even more niche than Paladin buffs. If you're using a level 1 chant, it would still require 24 seconds to use a level 3 invocation. If you're using the level 3 burn lash aura, it would take 48 seconds before you can use a level 3 invocation. Their summons are nice, but you can only have one of them up at a time.

 

I'm not saying the Chanter is terrible, but they do have a different set of advantages and disadvantages compared to other classes.

 

Finally, even if Devotions of the Faithful does buff spell accuracy(it doesn't say so in the description, but im going to give you the benefit of the doubt), it still stacks with Zealous Focus. Like I said, there is no reason to run 2 priests when you can have a priest and a paladin. Also, Boots of Zealous Command and high intellect is enough to allow Distant Advantage to overlap with Zealous Focus. Although, I wouldn't mind if the base radius was increased.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Ruminate

[Ruminate]

 

 

No. I understand what you mean. The problem is the following line:

 

The only exceptions to this rule are Critical Strikes and talents like Scion of Flame, a talent that increases certain specific damage types (although it is currently bugged and does not affect abilities like Flames of Devotion or weapon enchants).

 

 

When you look at my logs, what you aren't taking into account is that the pierce damage is calculating damage bonuses from superb enchant(45%), might(39%), crits(40%), and sworn enemy(15%).

The additional +100% burn damage isn't additive with the 45, 39, 40, and 15. Its multiplying the total damage by 2.

 

Crits are additive and not multiplicative. If you have +200% damage and you crit for another 50%, then your total bonus damage is 250%.

Lashes are multiplicative and not additive. If you have +200% damage and you deal another +100% lash damage, then your total damage is +400%.

 

 

Sigh if you want to split hairs, fine. Quality enchants, The Might Attribute and Sworn Enemy are Total Damage Modifiers, not additional effects, no. They specifically state x total damage, same with critical strikes (I quote from the ingame cyclopedia: "increases the total damage done by 50%"), and not +% damage like effect. If it wasn't, if it was additive, other additional damage effects wouldn't be affected other than weapon damage (unless they would make another exception).

 

Additional critical damage is also additive from that regard, just like Torment's Reach (+50% Crush damage) will be additive with any other ability that adds additional Crush damage. Like I said, there are a small amount of specific traits, like scion of flame, that state "Adds +20% damage to burn damage" while being multiplicative with Burn Damage and not additive, but generally this is not the case. Flames of Devotion adds +50% fire damage and Intense Flames add +25% damage to FoD, to end up with +75% additional fire damage, not 62.5%. If you add your Flame Lash from the enchant to that, that's another additive +25% fire damage. If you add another extra damage effect type to that, it's added to the pile of damage, not multiplied in any way.

 

And before you might go 'that's not true, it multiplies with your weapon damage!', that's true, but again, I'm talking about (generally) additional effects from the same damage type. Having to specify that total burn damage is multiplicative with your weapon damage is the same as saying it's additive to your weapon damage, so no, I didn't specify that nor should you expect it to be specified.

 

 

Crit damage does not multiply total damage by 1.5. Test it out yourself. Give a character 1000 might. Watch how much damage you do with a crit vs. not a crit.

Grazes work the same way. The penalty is subtracted by your damage bonus, rather than multiplying your total by 0.5

 

At 1000 might, and due to the damage range of weapons, grazes can actually deal more damage than crits.

[eubatham]

Crit damage does not multiply total damage by 1.5. Test it out yourself. Give a character 1000 might. Watch how much damage you do with a crit vs. not a crit.

Grazes work the same way. The penalty is subtracted by your damage bonus, rather than multiplying your total by 0.5

 

At 1000 might, and due to the damage range of weapons, grazes can actually deal more damage than crits.

 

If this is the case then I apologize for being wrong. A bit too late in the evening to check it out right now though. 

[Longknife]

1.2x ranged attack speed and 1.2x reload speed. Paladins can increase spell speed, melee speed, ranged speed, and reload speed by 1.2x

 

 

This right here sums up an absolute blind bias you're showing:

 

You are comparing a single target, per rest ability that Paladin gets at level 11 to an AOE ability Chanter gets at level 5 or so that does the exact same thing with any ranged weapons, with demand for guns being especially high.

 

You cannot possibly be this blind so as to think these two are even remotely similar or that the Paladin wins that out.

 

 

It's the same all over, such as with here:

 

 

+10 deflection for all allies. Paladins can increase deflection by +15 on the targets that are actually tanking.

 

And here:

 

 

Freigtened debuff. Bleak Walkers can do that when they kill an enemy.

 

 

 

The difference is the same thing I've been talking about to the point that I'm becoming a broken record:

 

Paladin is too specialized.

 

Everything it does or procs demands a very specific setup, whereas Chanters and Priests can just effect everyone with no hassle whatsoever and they can do so on command. A Paladin meanwhile only hits one target at a time and/or their skills demand a death at the right moment or the like to proc. Why would I micromanage a Paladin to death in order to achieve the exact same thing I can achieve with a Chanter with minimal effort on my part?

 

And to call Chanter invocations "niche" is absurd. Chanter is there to catch you if **** is hitting the fan. If something's going terribly wrong (big battle where some ranged guys picked off your wiz immediately, or maybe you approached a battle out of formation) and the battle isn't ending quickly as you would like, Chanter can single-handedly turn that around. The summons it gets aswell as some of the spells it gets (AOE Petrify) can singlehandedly turn a battle around.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Longknife

[Brimsurfer]

I just hope they give something to Paladins in coming patches, that will bring them at par with other classes in terms of usefulness and efficiency (not in play style).  So that people stop saying that a 'Paladin is better than having a SECOND priest or SECOND chanter or SECOND fighter or SECOND MONK etc'.....and start saying that "Paladin is a great alternative to replace your ONLY priest or ONLY fighter or ONLY chanter etc....". 

[Ram]

I just hope they give something to Paladins in coming patches, that will bring them at par with other classes in terms of usefulness and efficiency (not in play style).  So that people stop saying that a 'Paladin is better than having a SECOND priest or SECOND chanter or SECOND fighter or SECOND MONK etc'.....and start saying that "Paladin is a great alternative to replace your ONLY priest or ONLY fighter or ONLY chanter etc....". 

 

That sounds like you're saying the same exactly thing... not different - just different words.

[Ceranai]

 

 

 

No. I understand what you mean. The problem is the following line:

 

The only exceptions to this rule are Critical Strikes and talents like Scion of Flame, a talent that increases certain specific damage types (although it is currently bugged and does not affect abilities like Flames of Devotion or weapon enchants).

 

 

When you look at my logs, what you aren't taking into account is that the pierce damage is calculating damage bonuses from superb enchant(45%), might(39%), crits(40%), and sworn enemy(15%).

The additional +100% burn damage isn't additive with the 45, 39, 40, and 15. Its multiplying the total damage by 2.

 

Crits are additive and not multiplicative. If you have +200% damage and you crit for another 50%, then your total bonus damage is 250%.

Lashes are multiplicative and not additive. If you have +200% damage and you deal another +100% lash damage, then your total damage is +400%.

 

 

Sigh if you want to split hairs, fine. Quality enchants, The Might Attribute and Sworn Enemy are Total Damage Modifiers, not additional effects, no. They specifically state x total damage, same with critical strikes (I quote from the ingame cyclopedia: "increases the total damage done by 50%"), and not +% damage like effect. If it wasn't, if it was additive, other additional damage effects wouldn't be affected other than weapon damage (unless they would make another exception).

 

Additional critical damage is also additive from that regard, just like Torment's Reach (+50% Crush damage) will be additive with any other ability that adds additional Crush damage. Like I said, there are a small amount of specific traits, like scion of flame, that state "Adds +20% damage to burn damage" while being multiplicative with Burn Damage and not additive, but generally this is not the case. Flames of Devotion adds +50% fire damage and Intense Flames add +25% damage to FoD, to end up with +75% additional fire damage, not 62.5%. If you add your Flame Lash from the enchant to that, that's another additive +25% fire damage. If you add another extra damage effect type to that, it's added to the pile of damage, not multiplied in any way.

 

And before you might go 'that's not true, it multiplies with your weapon damage!', that's true, but again, I'm talking about (generally) additional effects from the same damage type. Having to specify that total burn damage is multiplicative with your weapon damage is the same as saying it's additive to your weapon damage, so no, I didn't specify that nor should you expect it to be specified.

 

 

Crit damage does not multiply total damage by 1.5. Test it out yourself. Give a character 1000 might. Watch how much damage you do with a crit vs. not a crit.

Grazes work the same way. The penalty is subtracted by your damage bonus, rather than multiplying your total by 0.5

 

At 1000 might, and due to the damage range of weapons, grazes can actually deal more damage than crits.

 

Bug what bug, i certainly have no idea what you might be refering to no bugs 'ere move along devs. Chanters are perfectly balanced. Defininitely nothing wrong here. I certainly didnt abuse any bugs in my games! I would never do anything like that, and i wouldnt dream of abusing how stupid the AI is!

[Ceranai]

 

1.2x ranged attack speed and 1.2x reload speed. Paladins can increase spell speed, melee speed, ranged speed, and reload speed by 1.2x

 

 

This right here sums up an absolute blind bias you're showing:

 

You are comparing a single target, per rest ability that Paladin gets at level 11 to an AOE ability Chanter gets at level 5 or so that does the exact same thing with any ranged weapons, with demand for guns being especially high.

 

You cannot possibly be this blind so as to think these two are even remotely similar or that the Paladin wins that out.

 

 

It's the same all over, such as with here:

 

 

+10 deflection for all allies. Paladins can increase deflection by +15 on the targets that are actually tanking.

 

And here:

 

 

Freigtened debuff. Bleak Walkers can do that when they kill an enemy.

 

 

 

The difference is the same thing I've been talking about to the point that I'm becoming a broken record:

 

Paladin is too specialized.

 

Everything it does or procs demands a very specific setup, whereas Chanters and Priests can just effect everyone with no hassle whatsoever and they can do so on command. A Paladin meanwhile only hits one target at a time and/or their skills demand a death at the right moment or the like to proc. Why would I micromanage a Paladin to death in order to achieve the exact same thing I can achieve with a Chanter with minimal effort on my part?

 

And to call Chanter invocations "niche" is absurd. Chanter is there to catch you if **** is hitting the fan. If something's going terribly wrong (big battle where some ranged guys picked off your wiz immediately, or maybe you approached a battle out of formation) and the battle isn't ending quickly as you would like, Chanter can single-handedly turn that around. The summons it gets aswell as some of the spells it gets (AOE Petrify) can singlehandedly turn a battle around.

 

Chanters dont get an AOE petrify, they get and AOE frighten which is superseeded by a terrify invocation.... lol chanters dont even need an aoe petrify but if they had one you could just break the game lol

[rheingold]

Paladins suck, Rangers suck, Wizards suck, Barbarians suck.... Is it just the power gamers who have seriously specialized builds who are complaining. Or am I being unfair? Thing is, it's always been like this since the year dot, and the fact that people are complaining about so many of the classes makes me think that Obsidan have done a good job with balance. Yes, there are 1 or 2 overpowered classes but for the rest they all work just fine. Complaining that BG 2 Paladins where weak as opposed to some of the insane builds you could do is simply crazy. You are always going to have the min/maxers, and that means that only relatively few builds will get their approval.

[Longknife]

Chanters dont get an AOE petrify, they get and AOE frighten which is superseeded by a terrify invocation.... lol chanters dont even need an aoe petrify but if they had one you could just break the game lol

 

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/At_the_Sound_of_His_Voice,_the_Killers_Froze_Stiff

 

AOE paralyze, but whatever you get the point.

[Exoduss]

 

Better yet, why take a chanter over a paladin?

 

 

You serious here?

 

This is exactly the problem: you can quicker justify any class besides Paladin. Paladin can res, Chanter can AOE res ad infinium, or use the chant points to do something else amazing. While Paladin gets the one res that provides that weird endurance debuff, Chanter can continue to res with enough time and can res AOE multiple people. Chanter constantly provides buffs that other classes cannot, such as faster reload speed and a burning weapon effect similar to Flames of Devotion, except for the whole squad. Why bring a Paladin over a Chanter is the real question. Ask around dude, Chanter is going to be in most people's top three or top four favorite classes. Please, seriously, go look at the list of all the buffs a Chanter can provide and then come here and tell me with a straight face that a Paladin's buffs are better.

 

 

 

And Devotions of the Faithful definitely does buff spell accuracy. Saw a guy whose entire strategy for PoTD was to buff the hell out of his Wizard's accuracy, specifically by combining Eldrich Aim and Devotions of the Faithful alongside one more buff iirc (probably the Priest's crit buff). Just AOE crit everything that way thanks to the +35 accuracy total, alongside the Might bonus for extra damage. Even if, for the sake of argument, this were not the case, that would not change that the range on Paladin buff zones is horrendous and you can hardly guarentee to be within range of the Wiz all the time.

 

We know when you talk bull**** when : Endurance Buffs become weird 

[Longknife]

We know when you talk bull**** when : Endurance Buffs become weird 

???

[Ruminate]

 

1.2x ranged attack speed and 1.2x reload speed. Paladins can increase spell speed, melee speed, ranged speed, and reload speed by 1.2x

 

 

This right here sums up an absolute blind bias you're showing:

 

You are comparing a single target, per rest ability that Paladin gets at level 11 to an AOE ability Chanter gets at level 5 or so that does the exact same thing with any ranged weapons, with demand for guns being especially high.

 

You cannot possibly be this blind so as to think these two are even remotely similar or that the Paladin wins that out.

 

 

It's the same all over, such as with here:

 

 

+10 deflection for all allies. Paladins can increase deflection by +15 on the targets that are actually tanking.

 

And here:

 

 

Freigtened debuff. Bleak Walkers can do that when they kill an enemy.

 

 

 

The difference is the same thing I've been talking about to the point that I'm becoming a broken record:

 

Paladin is too specialized.

 

Everything it does or procs demands a very specific setup, whereas Chanters and Priests can just effect everyone with no hassle whatsoever and they can do so on command. A Paladin meanwhile only hits one target at a time and/or their skills demand a death at the right moment or the like to proc. Why would I micromanage a Paladin to death in order to achieve the exact same thing I can achieve with a Chanter with minimal effort on my part?

 

And to call Chanter invocations "niche" is absurd. Chanter is there to catch you if **** is hitting the fan. If something's going terribly wrong (big battle where some ranged guys picked off your wiz immediately, or maybe you approached a battle out of formation) and the battle isn't ending quickly as you would like, Chanter can single-handedly turn that around. The summons it gets aswell as some of the spells it gets (AOE Petrify) can singlehandedly turn a battle around.

 

 

I never said they're similar to the Paladin's buff or that the Paladin wins out either. Don't make wild assumptions to the contrary just so you can hold an argument. Like I said in the same post you're arguing with, I'm not saying the Chanter is terrible, but they do have a different set of advantages and disadvantages compared to other classes. A firearms buff to a character that isn't using firearms, or is quick switching multiple firearms, is not an advantage. A 3x per rest attack speed buff on melee DPS or casters is a different kind of advantage. A +10 deflection buff to a character that is not getting hit is not an advantage. A +15 deflection buff to a character that is getting hit is a different kind of advantage.

 

You think a Chanter isn't too specialized? You think a buff that only benefits ranged weapons isn't too specialized? You think a class that is built more for soloing and not for groups is not too specialized?

 

Their 90 degree cone paralyze lasts 8 seconds at base. It takes 20 seconds minimum before you can cast it, provided that your chanter is using an insignificant chant to speed it up. It also has lower accuracy than cipher, druid, and wizard spells. Why would you take a chanter instead of a wizard, druid, or cipher? Heck, why would you take a chanter over a priest? Even priests have an AoE knockdown that lasts longer and has higher accuracy because its affected by the mechanics skill. Funny how that kind of logic can be thrown back at you, huh?

[MoxyWoo]

Chanter is specialized, but has action economy on its side.  Their chants just keep on going and going regardless of if they're attacking, using a scroll, tanking, casting an invocation after the 20 second mark, etc.

 

Paladin doesn't have that luxury and maybe equals some of the effects toward end game without the nice 20+ second game changer the chanter has.  Chanters also don't interfere with priest buffs, so currently the least bugged support along with priest class.  Additionally, the paladin has very limited usage of abilities that don't impact the support role heavily unless +10 to 16 accuracy (that maybe overridden by priests) is exciting as their helpful support abilities are either working as intended and suck, or not working as intended and still suck, or just don't have enough uses in the game (pick one, all 3 apply).

Edited April 16, 2015 by MoxyWoo