EI Mod and my opinions

[Sensuki]

Excuse me, but why are you using realism as an example in a game?

 

I play my games like games, thankyou very much.

 

Games should be designed to be played like games, in turn.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Sensuki

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Okay. Just did a video to show you how enemies like Drakes ignore your ranged characters. In fact, one drake flies through my ranged characters.  Skip to 1.50 minute mark to see it happen.

 

Playing on Hard. Not even trying to win the battle (but I did win it anyway), and just showing an example of how enemies will target the first character they come across and dog pile on them. I had GM hitting the drake and the drake was ignoring her. The drake flying through my characters is nothing new and it's one of the many instances I've come across in the game where the A.I. just ignores my other characters.

 

http://youtu.be/gCPMPnTvVr4

 

Oh and my naked Durance is all alone off to the left keeping Eder up and the drakes fly past him and ignore him!

Edited April 13, 2015 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Hassat Hunter]

That's one of the cool things about BG2 is there are many very different ways to tackle encounters.

But one person said such a method of doing it and you immediately went for "you did it cheesy" and "you should beat them the fair way; MY way."

So if there's many ways to beat them why go all moral high ground on the other person just cause he chose a different one?

 

The conclusions you go through doesn't compute with your earlier actions, words and accusations. Just calling everyone who didn't play like you "restspammer" doesn't help make your case either, rather than just making you appear as an elitist that needs to downpad other players to feel better, even in this game that apparently gives so many resolution choices.

I don't believe you're supposed to fight Mind Flayers the traditional way, that's one of the cool things about them IMO. They require "something completely different".

They're also highly annoying, much too common and probably single-handledly make the Underdark my most hated BG2 area. BG2 lost a lot of fun for me once Athkala was over anyway. Linear dungeoneering didn't suit it.

 

(and damn you guys post too much, just finished 5 of 12... 7 more to go :/)

[Zwiebelchen]

Excuse me, but why are you using realism as an example in a game?

 

I play my games like games, thankyou very much.

 

Games should be designed to be played like games, in turn.

 

Come on, really? THIS is what you picked out of my post to comment?

[Ohioastro]

 

 

There was nothing in the game or the manuals saying that you shouldn't rest-spam.

 

Logic fail.

 

 

No, it's just an insult used to call someone an incompetent player, nothing more.  I like to stretch myself by conserving resources - basically, to learn how to play efficiently.  If you use too few spells then you get banged up and need to rest to heal, so it's a balance.  But, for example, I consider rapid-fire clicking to beat the game AI to be flat-out exploiting- and I would never do that.  If someone is coming for my character I intercept them, disable them, or so forth - I may have that character run away, but I'll have someone else engage.  Because, to me, there is no difference between using mouse clicks to trivialize a game and using the console.  My way doesn't involve using all of the spells all of the time, but it probably does involve using more spells than Street-Fighter style rapid clicking to prevent the computer from doing anything.

 

So, when I see that you can beat PoE by click-a-thoning it, so what ?  You can also beat it by using console commands.

[PrimeJunta]

How is it an exploit? I can see what the enemy AI is doing just by looking at it and I remember what they do for next time. That's how you win things/improve at things.

 

You've discovered a weakness in the implementation of a feature that lets you predictably and systematically exploit it. That's the very definition of an exploit. It's exactly like rest/save-spamming, only more sophisticated. It's a difference in degree, not in kind.

[Sensuki]

Come on, really? THIS is what you picked out of my post to comment?

I did. You think about it - in games you don't play them like you would in real life (unless you're an extreme LARPER). When I play FPS games, I run with my pistol/knife because it's faster. I open doors in weird ways. I spam prone / stand when crossing tight gaps to make myself harder to hit.

 

When playing other games I do the same thing, I do the things that make the most sense to win the game within the rules of the game.

 

But one person said such a method of doing it and you immediately went for "you did it cheesy" and "you should beat them the fair way; MY way."

So if there's many ways to beat them why go all moral high ground on the other person just cause he chose a different one?

Because rest spamming is avoiding the strategical concerns of the gameplay completely. Are you trying to justify it?

 

The conclusions you go through doesn't compute with your earlier actions, words and accusations. Just calling everyone who didn't play like you "restspammer" doesn't help make your case either, rather than just making you appear as an elitist that needs to downpad other players to feel better, even in this game that apparently gives so many resolution choices.

Rest spammer? I guess.

 

You've discovered a weakness in the implementation of a feature that lets you predictably and systematically exploit it. That's the very definition of an exploit. It's exactly like rest/save-spamming, only more sophisticated. It's a difference in degree, not in kind.

I highly doubt that, because many or most games have AI features that are the same every time you play them. So I suppose by that logic, learning how to easily beat Bowser in Super Mario 64 because you know his exact routine is AI exploiting as well.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Sensuki

[PrimeJunta]

@HH and others: my only real beef with the beholders and illithids is that there were too damn many of them. One illithid + umber hulk encounter would have been an exciting climactic mini-bossfight. One after another after another after another was just a chore. Same for the beholders.

[PrimeJunta]

When playing other games I do the same thing, I do the things that make the most sense to win the game within the rules of the game.

 

And sneer at others when they do the same (e.g. rest-spam). Classy.

[tinderbox]

Excuse me, but why are you using realism as an example in a game?

 

I play my games like games, thankyou very much.

 

Games should be designed to be played like games, in turn.

 

No, I don't agree with this. Especially for a role-playing game.

 

You're playing a role within a set of rules and helping create a story. Fighting can be part of that story, but it doesn't have to be though there may be instances where it's unavoidable. As part of that, you can bring into your role whatever character attitude you like, as long as it's consistent, or evolves in a sensible manner.

 

If your role-playing operandi is a character who is just in it for loot and glory and is a bit of a sociopath, cool. If your character is a ridiculous coward looking out for his or her own skin, cool. If your character is a nutter hero who strides into battle against evil without a second thought, cool. 

 

All these can, and should, help determine your playing style.

 

And, well, that's what helps make these games (even though they're games) realistic, because they emulate human interactions and choices.

[MReed]

 

So, I'm about to head into a really dangerous situation against an enemy of unknown abilities. I have no idea of the reception that I'm going to get. It might be positive, it might be negative. Who the hell knows? But one thing I do know -- he has a bunch of mates with him. Lots and lots of the buggers.

 

But, hey, I have some mates along to give me back-up and I know they'll have my back if it comes to crossing swords.

 

What about them? They could come along and stand shoulder-to-shoulder with me if worst comes to worst, right? That would make sense, right?

 

Hell no, I'll leave them behind and march up all by myself to confront this evil dictator! Sure that bad guy has a dozen offsiders but I'll be fine up there all on my lonesome. Right?

 

Sold! I'll buy 100 of those strategies at 100cp a-piece.

 

That's why I think it's cheesey. I don't feel it's a realistic reaction.

 

Again, if that's what others want to do, that's fine. But for RP reasons (and the RP element is fairly important to me), I don't think it floats at all.

 

 

I'm sorry, but this simply doesn't make sense to me -- at least, not unless you have a party where all members are equally able to accept / resist / deal with damage, especially from melee.  That would be an unusual party configuration in PoE (or just about any cRPG).

 

A more typical party configuration will have one (maybe two) people that are far more capable of dealing with melee attacks, 2-3 characters that have some resistance to damage, and 2-3 characters that have practically no ability to resist damage.  Not surprisingly, the different characters have different preferred engagement models:  the better a character can deal with melee damage, the more likely they are to making melee attacks themselves (& vice versa).

 

To take a real-world example, if the police are negotiating with an armed suspect and have a sniper available to them, should they send the sniper in (rather than positioned on, say, a nearby rooftop) with the negotiation team, because otherwise the negotiation team will feel unprotected?

 

Now, I could understand if Lord whatever refused to talk to the parties "designated representative" while the remainder of the party readied weapons in an obvious preparation of an attack, but the only change versus the current situation (for me) would be that I wouldn't go through the dialog (or, perhaps, I'd go through the dialog, then restore and not go through the dialog). 

 

I've rarely seen a situation in a cRPG where "This is going to end in combat" is more obvious -- the whole reason (the only reason) that you were able to enter the castle in the first place is because someone asked you to assassinate him.  On top of that, you've either 1) Butchered a large number of guards or 2) Infiltrated the castle by stealth and deceit in order to get to the throne room -- there is no option, for example, to present yourself at the front door and say "Hey, did you know that someone is going around trying to recruit assassins to kill you".

 

Given the situation, even if the lord reputation was completely unearned (and it isn't -- many, many people tell you that the lord is, at best, mentally disturbed) the setup is so unfavorable to a peaceful resolution that I don't see how any reasonable person can argue that conflict is certainly likely to occur.

 

For the record:  The very first time I played this encounter (completely cold, no walkthroughs, spoilers of any sort) I did in fact send in Eder by himself with the remainder of the party remaining at the foot of the stairs leading up to the dias.  I believe that I won it on the first try, to, but just by the skin of my teeth (one character still standing).

[Sensuki]

And sneer at others when they do the same (e.g. rest-spam). Classy.

Rest spamming is exploiting. It doesn't count, as it completely bypasses the strategical resource management aspect of the game ... kind of like a gold cheat in an RTS.

 

For the record: The very first time I played this encounter (completely cold, no walkthroughs, spoilers of any sort) I did in fact send in Eder by himself with the remainder of the party remaining at the foot of the stairs leading up to the dias.

Yes, I know others that did the same thing too.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Sensuki

[Zwiebelchen]

 

A more typical party configuration will have one (maybe two) people that are far more capable of dealing with melee attacks, 2-3 characters that have some resistance to damage, and 2-3 characters that have practically no ability to resist damage.  Not surprisingly, the different characters have different preferred engagement models:  the better a character can deal with melee damage, the more likely they are to making melee attacks themselves (& vice versa).

 

To take a real-world example, if the police are negotiating with an armed suspect and have a sniper available to them, should they send the sniper in (rather than positioned on, say, a nearby rooftop) with the negotiation team, because otherwise the negotiation team will feel unprotected?

 

 

See? And this is exactly the problem I am talking about: mono-tanking is just way too effective and needs to be nerfed with the power of the eternal pillows.

 

If I'd forced to bring one or two offtanks into battle, the situation would change dramatically. Not only would it look more realistic, but it would also instantly create new tactical situations that weren't there before. Suddenly, my AoEs wouldn't be as easy to position as before. Suddenly, the concentration score matters more. Suddenly, a mage learning defensive spells might be a good idea...

Having a sniper (as you brought up that example) hiding behind the stairs absolutely makes sense RP-wise. However, having 5 snipers and only one tank-to-rule them all is broken.

 

 

However, there's a difference in view here between everyone discussing this:

There's the guys that have given up on the game already and those (like me) who think that a little bit of rebalancing might already go a long way. I think there's no reason for both sides to be upset at each other - rather, we should discuss the most sensible possible changes for this as - mind you - obsidian DOES read the forums after all.

[PrimeJunta]

 

And sneer at others when they do the same (e.g. rest-spam). Classy.

Rest spamming is exploiting. It doesn't count, as it completely bypasses the strategical resource management aspect of the game ... kind of like a gold cheat in an RTS.

 

I agree. It is exploiting. Which is why the rest system should've been built in a way not to allow it in the first place.

[Varana]

And confusing the target AI exploits its shortcomings because it was not the focus of development.

 

Seriously, I can read BG2 attack scripts, and I'm by no means an expert in AI programming (or programming at all). I can write (or could, a few years back) BG2 attack scripts at a similar level than the original ones. There is nothing special about BG2 AI. Its basic modus operandi is "if I see my attacker, attack him; if I haven't used my one special ability yet, use it; throw in a random chance to do nothing; re-evaluate attack target".

[Prime-Mover]

 

And sneer at others when they do the same (e.g. rest-spam). Classy.

Rest spamming is exploiting. It doesn't count, as it completely bypasses the strategical resource management aspect of the game ... kind of like a gold cheat in an RTS.

 

It certainly doesn't completely bypass resource management, it simply makes it a less significant challenge, compared to not rest-spamming. But again, as pointed out many times now, according to your logic, not deliberately gimping your character is thus the equivelent of exploitation/cheating, which is absurd. 

 

You have simply not presented any argument beyond simply denoting it as an exploit, to support your case.

[Sensuki]

And confusing the target AI exploits its shortcomings because it was not the focus of development.

 

Seriously, I can read BG2 attack scripts, and I'm by no means an expert in AI programming (or programming at all). I can write (or could, a few years back) BG2 attack scripts at a similar level than the original ones. There is nothing special about BG2 AI. Its basic modus operandi is "if I see my attacker, attack him; if I haven't used my one special ability yet, use it; throw in a random chance to do nothing; re-evaluate attack target".

Just because you can easily outsmart something that wasn't a focus of the development doesn't mean that it's an exploit. Dice Poker in The Witcher 1 and 2 is incredibly easy, I win those almost every time, am I exploiting because I think I'm safe on three twos and I know the dumb AI will resign? I don't think so.

 

Creating smart AI is pretty hard, so encounter design should take into account that the player will probably be able to control the situation quite easily, and make it more difficult in other ways.

 

It certainly doesn't completely bypass resource management, it simply makes it a less significant challenge, compared to not rest-spamming. But again, as pointed out many times now, according to your logic, not deliberately gimping your character is thus the equivelent of exploitation/cheating, which is absurd.

What? I don't deliberately gimp my character? I have stated that I do enjoy the challenge of stretching the adventuring day as far as possible but I can't really do that in Pillars of Eternity because there's not much resource management, and Major Fatigue is pretty harsh. Usually kicks in before I can even try.

 

You have simply not presented any argument beyond simply denoting it as an exploit, to support your case.

Don't worry bro, Pillars of Eternity barely has any resource management for you to rest spam and avoid, so it must be the game for you Edited April 13, 2015 by Sensuki

[tinderbox]

Okay. Just did a video to show you how enemies like Drakes ignore your ranged characters. In fact, one drake flies through my ranged characters.  Skip to 1.50 minute mark to see it happen.

 

LOL. I *wish* the drakes had done that to my ranged characters. Another place where I got toasted a couple of times.

 

You definitely play with your ranged characters further back than I do. This is, I guess, another reason that enemy LOS should be just as good as your own. Imagine how much tenser it would be if some enemies had better vision than that of your party. That's something I'd like to see.

[Prime-Mover]

 

And confusing the target AI exploits its shortcomings because it was not the focus of development.

 

Seriously, I can read BG2 attack scripts, and I'm by no means an expert in AI programming (or programming at all). I can write (or could, a few years back) BG2 attack scripts at a similar level than the original ones. There is nothing special about BG2 AI. Its basic modus operandi is "if I see my attacker, attack him; if I haven't used my one special ability yet, use it; throw in a random chance to do nothing; re-evaluate attack target".

Just because you can easily outsmart something that wasn't a focus of the development doesn't mean that it's an exploit. Dice Poker in The Witcher 1 and 2 is incredibly easy, I win those almost every time, am I exploiting because I think I'm safe on three twos and I know the dumb AI will resign? I don't think so.

 

Creating smart AI is pretty hard, so encounter design should take into account that the player will probably be able to control the situation quite easily, and make it more difficult in other ways.

 

It certainly doesn't completely bypass resource management, it simply makes it a less significant challenge, compared to not rest-spamming. But again, as pointed out many times now, according to your logic, not deliberately gimping your character is thus the equivelent of exploitation/cheating, which is absurd.

What? I don't deliberately gimp my character?

 

 

You have simply not presented any argument beyond simply denoting it as an exploit, to support your case.

Don't worry bro, Pillars of Eternity barely has any resource management for you to rest spam and avoid, so it must be the game for you

 

Not really the point I was making, but ok.

 

Beyond that, I actually do find myself conserving spells compared to IE, and I prefer the PoE resting system to the IE one, namely because I am not inclined to deliberately gimping myself by avoiding the optimal strategy, i.e. rest spamming. I have other issues with PoE, and overall, I have fonder memories of IE combat as a whole, but not for that reason.

[PrimeJunta]

Creating smart AI is pretty hard, so encounter design should take into account that the player will probably be able to control the situation quite easily, and make it more difficult in other ways.

 

Bingo.

 

So how about we discuss the various ways the encounters could be made more difficult and varied, preferably within the general parameters of the P:E design?

 

Seems to me that would be a more productive use of everybody's time than the bickering and sneering this thread has devolved into.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

However, having 5 snipers and only one tank-to-rule them all is broken.

 

Not really 5 snipers and one tank. Working as intended with having all four bases covered in my party with Defender (Eder), DPS (PC Rogue, Sagani, Grieving Mother), Leader (Durance) and Controller (Hiravias).

 

I've only got Sagani in my party to do her quest and will drop her like a lead balloon once it's done. Will then pick up Pallegina as that's the only companion I haven't picked up yet.

[Hassat Hunter]

Did you rest spam as well? Because I didn't. Not my fault if you ruined the game for yourself.

 

Well, seems you really took that true for yourself and ruined PoE for yourself.

And thereby missed out the best RPG in years.

 

Not our loss 0_o

[Sensuki]

So how about we discuss the various ways the encounters could be made more difficult and varied, preferably within the general parameters of the P:E design?

 

Seems to me that would be a more productive use of everybody's time than the bickering and sneering this thread has devolved into.

Well, it was you who had a go at me when I didn't even mention AI targeting stuff in the first place. I mentioned legitimate issues with the design from other perspectives.

 

Personally I'm not really interested in contributing to discussions on how to improve the game anyway, as I don't see myself as a part of the target audience (as much as I wanted to be) and I don't think anything is gonna change that.

 

The higher defenses/DRs for different enemies is not a bad one, but it will be, once again, a strategical consideration only.

 

Beyond that, I actually do find myself conserving spells compared to IE, and I prefer the PoE resting system to the IE one, namely because I am not inclined to deliberately gimping myself by avoiding the optimal strategy, i.e. rest spamming. I have other issues with PoE, and overall, I have fonder memories of IE combat as a whole, but not for that reason.

See, now there's nothing wrong with that. I said previously that I think that the game caters to people more like you than people more like me.

 

Well, seems you really took that true for yourself and ruined PoE for yourself.

And thereby missed out the best RPG in years.

 

Not our loss 0_o

I don't think so. The lack of strategical resource management is only one egg in the basket as well.

 

I'm sorry but I have to ask. Are you triggered by my presence or something?

Edited April 13, 2015 by Sensuki

[PrimeJunta]

Personally I'm not really interested in contributing to discussions on how to improve the game anyway, as I don't see myself as a part of the target audience (as much as I wanted to be) and I don't think anything is gonna change that.

 

Okay, so then what are you interested in discussing? 

 

Asking because if your intent is just to vent, sneer, trash the game, and wave your massive e-peen around, I'd like to know so I can just ignore you for the time being.

[archangel979]

As this topic has turned into lets leave our complaints about PoE let me leave mine:

1. I want monsters to be immune or extremely resistant to elements and status effects. I want to be forced to do encounters with different spells/abilities. What is the point of even having different Armor values when I never need to switch weapons or spells I use? (and then I want to be able to equip stuff from inventory during combat into quickslots)

 

2. I want more spells/abilities that do more than just give a +/- 10/20 to accuracy or some defense or armor. Things like Prone, Charm/Confuse and Petrify need to exist more as well as abilities/spells that counter it.

 

3. Fix fracking pathfinding in combat or let me move my tank few pixels to make space without getting a disengagement attack for it.

 

4. If I turn off AI targeting, then fracking turn off AI targeting for real.

 

5. Stronghold :/ :/ - bad both mechanically and storywise. Maybe someone should actually notice (except for bandits that don't have a problem taking your taxes and attacking the Keep) you are a major land owner now and act accordingly instead of treating you like a scrub.

Edited April 13, 2015 by archangel979