One handed good enough?

[Jimmysdabestcop]

Unless you give the guy with the shield a rapier. I mean the best one will give +17 to Accuracy.

[Crucis]

 

 

Eh.. "Good enough"? Well.. I mean, it's possible. It really comes down to what is "enough". With a group, you can certainly complete the game, no doubt.

 

But does dual-wielding beat it by a landslide? Yes. The +12 Accuracy that you gain for duelist fighting isn't nearly enough to compensate, and the One-Weapon Style Talent is utter rubbish - it only happens when something that will be relatively rare to you happens, and the higher your Accuracy gets (and as a duelist, you will want to stack Accuracy, obviously) the less useful it gets.

 

Even if we assume an equal Deflection and Accuracy, Grazes only happens on a roll of 16-50, which is to say 34%. The higher your Accuracy gets over the enemy Deflection (and again you are all about the Accuracy, and have an extra +12 Accuracy to boot) the less Grazes you are going to get. And then, when you DO get a Graze, there's only a 30% chance that it will become a hit (upping the damage from 50% to 100% - that is, to say, a 100% increase to what you should've gotten).

 

Overall, that is pretty damn terrible, when compared to Dual-Wielding and Two-Handed Weapons. No-one has run the math against using a Shield, because obviously, that is all about the defences and will always come up as the shortest.

 

Changing the talent to change hits to crits instead of grazes to hits would be a huge improvement. I agree that giving the "I have high Accuracy" weapon style a talent that mitigates the effects of having low Accuracy is really stupid.

 

 

I wouldn't mind it doing both; 20% Graze-to-Hit and 20% Hit-to-Crit, while having in mind that an attack that's been converted once will not be converted again (so a Graze can't become a Crit). I'm not sure how that would play out, but at least I'd consider it.

 

 

 

Luckmann, that's one way to enhance the single weapon style.  Another would be to change how weapon and shield, as well as single weapon work.  So that the weapon/shield style enhances the offensive side to offset the accuracy penalty you take for carrying the shield, while having the single weapon style get a deflection bonus to enhance the player's defenses.  The deflection bonus would represent increased training on how to use a single weapon to parry enemy attacks as well as simply be more difficult to hit.

 

Of course, one could argue that the end result would be having users of the two styles moving closer together with each offsetting the penalty for using or not using a shield.  OTOH, it would certainly seem to make each style more useful in a decent way.

 

Just a thought.

 

 

[b0rsuk]

I'm torn between Battleaxe and Spear. Cladhalíath can be modified to stun on crit.

[Luckmann]

I'm torn between Battleaxe and Spear. Cladhalíath can be modified to stun on crit.

I would go with Spears, definitely. Battleaxes has increased crit damage, yes, but Spears gets that nice bonus to Accuracy, making you crit more. And if you're one-handing, you're all about stacking that Accuracy.

 

The fact that Cladhalíath can be made to stun on crit is just a wonderful bonus, too.

[Matt516]

 

While the talent is meh, Battleaxes are good fit for one-handed fighting style. They get increased critical damage, and with the bonus to accuracy you are likely to get more criticals.

Rapiers and Spears are also very good, because they add +5 Accuracy, helping you to really push Accuracy.

 

Battle Axes (+0.5% Crit.Dmg), Maces (Pen 3) and Flails (30% Graze-to-Hit) are all potentially really good, but they don't really feel very... duelist-y, I think.

 

Until they fix the One-Handed Style Talent working with shields, Flails are really good for sword-and-board Fighters, I think. They're going to have pretty low Accuracy, so they're going to Graze a lot, and converting 60% of those is quite powerful.

 

 

Wait, does One-Handed Style work with shields? No way... if so that's got to be a bug (and should be reported).

[b0rsuk]

 

I'm torn between Battleaxe and Spear. Cladhalíath can be modified to stun on crit.

I would go with Spears, definitely. Battleaxes has increased crit damage, yes, but Spears gets that nice bonus to Accuracy, making you crit more. And if you're one-handing, you're all about stacking that Accuracy.

 

The fact that Cladhalíath can be made to stun on crit is just a wonderful bonus, too.

 

 

But how does that work with Stun ? Like this ?

1. I must pass an Accuracy vs Deflection roll to crit

2. I must pass an Accuracy vs Fortitude roll to stun

 

With Battleaxe, I think it is

1. I must pass an Accuracy vs Deflection roll to crit

[taek]

Nobody uses one handed? Guess that's sort of an answer :D

 

I use 1H all the time, with the Jolting Touch stiletto that procs on Crit. 

I admit i do switch to DW once it procs however.

Edited April 18, 2015 by taek

[Luckmann]

 

 

I'm torn between Battleaxe and Spear. Cladhalíath can be modified to stun on crit.

I would go with Spears, definitely. Battleaxes has increased crit damage, yes, but Spears gets that nice bonus to Accuracy, making you crit more. And if you're one-handing, you're all about stacking that Accuracy.

 

The fact that Cladhalíath can be made to stun on crit is just a wonderful bonus, too.

 

 

But how does that work with Stun ? Like this ?

1. I must pass an Accuracy vs Deflection roll to crit

2. I must pass an Accuracy vs Fortitude roll to stun

 

With Battleaxe, I think it is

1. I must pass an Accuracy vs Deflection roll to crit

 

 

I can't answer that for sure, but if it works like most other effects, it should:

First, you roll to attack, Accuracy against enemy Deflection. Let's assume you score a Critical.

At that point, you basically roll a second pseudo-attack, this time against the enemy's Fortitude, and if it succeeds, you Stun.

 

It should be easy to confirm, but I haven't tried anything with Crit-to-Stun myself, yet.

[Crucis]

 

Nobody uses one handed? Guess that's sort of an answer :D

 

I use 1H all the time, with the Jolting Touch stiletto that procs on Crit. 

I admit i do switch to DW once it procs however.

 

 

English please.  "Procs"?

[Crucis]

 

 

Well it clearly shouldn't be stacking.

 

Why is that at all clear? The talent says it works when using a single one-handed weapon. It says nothing about ONLY using a single one-handed weapon. Why shouldn't it work with a shield? Because there's a sword&board talent? That's not a good enough reason.

Also, it can't be overpowered on a Tank because (with a very few exceptions, Barbarians, Rogues, and Ciphers notwithstanding) their job isn't to do damage.

 

And you're using two talents to have both. 

 

 

I emphatically disagree.  It is the job of any combatant that chooses to go to the front lines to do damage.  A combatant whose job is strictly to go to the front line to abuse the game's AI and tie up enemy warriors without any real intention or capability to do damage is total cheese.  A legitimate "tank's" job is not only to block the enemy from getting to your party's squishier members, but to act offensively as well.

[Crucis]

 

Well it clearly shouldn't be stacking.

 

Why is that at all clear? The talent says it works when using a single one-handed weapon. It says nothing about ONLY using a single one-handed weapon. Why shouldn't it work with a shield? Because there's a sword&board talent? That's not a good enough reason.

 

 

Because anyone with any experience with the old IE games and DnD understand that single one-hand weapon style and weapon/shield style are two mutually exclusive thing.  That said, if the game doesn't make this clear, it's the fault of the game's designers not the players for knowing this.

[Brimsurfer]

could be pretty good on a melee wizard or priest...only guessing though, haven't tried it myself.

[Raising]

I have to say that im runing two  moon monk tanks in PoTD and they both use only one weapon in the off hand, it act the same as in the first hand but when you use a skill that do a full atack you get both, and since im constantly geting enought wounds almost all atacks are full atacks using torment reach or stunning blow whith a great efect.

im currently lvl 10 and thosse monks are doing expectacular out damagin my rogue since they dont really care about enemies atacking them. they could be tankier with a shiled ( at least 22 more at reflex and deviation) but with the heal they get from the moon pasive and the support from the  cleric they dont end in the floor often.( and do a hell of damage)

[Jimmysdabestcop]

I actually think PoE has no tanks at all. There is no guard feature. So can't auto protect anyone. And there is no ability on an warrior type class that can absorb damage meant for other characters. And there is no taunting or aggro of any kind. And engagement rules don't really lock enemies onto to anyone. If tere is a big enough area who ever cant engange will just run around your front line crew and melee anyone they want.

 

But most engagement areas aren't wide open. And the AI isn't as strong as it needs to be a 100% of the time. As sometimes the enemy AI will try forever to engage melee even if it cant reach that party member. I mean if the AI was smart enough they just run around your front liners to your spells casters. Or everyone go range and take out your Wizard/Cipher in the first 10 seconds like the Player can do.

 

Really the only thing making these PoE "psuedo tanks" is some classes have high base deflection, plus right attributes, and items so you can engage many enemies and not die while not dealing damage. PoE tank would then just be described as a character focused on high defenses that does no damage. Not really the classical tank definition.

 

Now compare that to the IE cRPG's where you didn't have to pick between taking a hit or dealing damage. You just had to have the right armor and AC boosts. You could "tank" with any class and didn't have to sacrifice dealing damage at all. Seems kind of limiting in PoE.

 

Like in my Party I set Durance up to be my meat shield. In Act 3 his deflection was like 135 or something unbuffed. So he never got hit. I really  him doing damage cause the fights were over so quick there was no time for his spells. Only reason I brought him was stroyline and for boss and mini boss battles where his spells were useful.

And I could have swapped Durance out for a better damage dealer NPC and gotten the fights over even quicker.

 

But I do think levels 1-5 are a lot harder then levels 6-12 in the game.

[Raising]

how do you achieve 135 deflection without buffs with a priest??

16 shield + 12 upgraded +6 (shield + talent) + 5 raw talent + 10 ring + up to 30 stats(durance wont reach this) + 15 base deflection + 36 (level up) = 130, i am missing something?

[SilchasRuin]

how do you achieve 135 deflection without buffs with a priest??

 

16 shield + 12 upgraded +6 (shield + talent) + 5 raw talent + 10 ring + up to 30 stats(durance wont reach this) + 15 base deflection + 36 (level up) = 130, i am missing something?

+5 deflection from Hatchet, but still doesn't explain the stats, unless what he's saying is unbuffed is including something like the Paladin shield, maybe fighter aura too.

Edited April 23, 2015 by SilchasRuin

[Raising]

Maybe the talent that give you a stance with +10 deflection 0.8X atack speed

[Raising]

And considering the OP,

comparing one handed vs weapon and shield 

Using superb smallshield as base line with the shield talent ( for both reflex and reflection bonus). Is +12 acuracy vs +26 reflex and deflection ( Pretty unfair for one handed).

 

early: +12 acuracy vs + 18 reflex and deflection (fine small Shield)

late:          +12 acuracy vs + 26 reflex and deflection (superb small shield)

 

I think there should be a better talent for one handed that scale with level, maybe something like duplicate the acuracy bonus from the weapon so it ends adding an extra plus 12 to you acuracy ( maybe 17 with spears and the like).

Or it can extend the grace from 16-50 to 0-50.


To make some number for the one handed talent. usually you'll have a 35% of gaze, 30% of that is turn to hit. ok, thats the equivalent ( cheking only on the gace chance) as 10'5 more acucuracy, but it dont help to conver miss to grace or hit to crits. (the more important part is the miss to grace conversion since if you have a neat bonus to damage you'll be doing nice damage anway.

in a even scenario (when considering the +12 in it)

 

 with +50% dmg   =  DMG *(0.15 * 0 + 0.245*1 + 0.605*1.5) = 1.1525*DMG

 with +100% dmg   =  DMG *(0.15 * 0 + 0.245*1.5 + 0.605*2) = 1.5775*DMG

 

Ok I think i'll do some extra maths using a excel, ill be back soon


PD: You can look at the talent as an extra 15% dmg con graces ( 30% graces get 50% extra damage), and since your maximun grace chance is 35% it adds about 5% extra dmg overall. That is really bad for a talent

Edited April 23, 2015 by Raising

[Raising]

      
 

As you can see in the grafic the more deflection de enemy have the more extra damage you get from have +12 accuracy. The point of more interest is at accuracy - deflection = 0 where thanks to the  bonus the chance of mising go almost to 0, fron that point the dmg benefit goes down pretty fast.

On the other hand you can se that having more extra dmg( not base dmg) reduces the benefits of increasing the acuracy since it decrease the dmg diference betwen graze and crit. ( at +0% crit do x3 the graces dmg, at +100%  it only do x1.66).

So my recomendation, ensure your final accuracy is  15 points over enemy deflection, from that point invest your resources on other place as it will pay back hardly a 10% extra dmg ( ass you easily will have more than 50% extra bonus dmg). 

 

If you have a nice  amount of paralisis hobbed, stun, blind and those, and buffs to event the acuracy to the (+15)  you shoud stop worrying about accuracy as passed that point it decrease its impact. I haven ot scheked it but i gues that if you are not in PoTD you are probable better not using One HAnd unless against very strong enemies

Edited April 23, 2015 by Raising

[Luckmann]

      

 

As you can see in the grafic the more deflection de enemy have the more extra damage you get from have +12 accuracy. The point of more interest is at accuracy - deflection = 0 where thanks to the  bonus the chance of mising go almost to 0, fron that point the dmg benefit goes down pretty fast.

 

On the other hand you can se that having more extra dmg( not base dmg) reduces the benefits of increasing the acuracy since it decrease the dmg diference betwen graze and crit. ( at +0% crit do x3 the graces dmg, at +100%  it only do x1.66).

 

So my recomendation, ensure your final accuracy is  15 points over enemy deflection, from that point invest your resources on other place as it will pay back hardly a 10% extra dmg ( ass you easily will have more than 50% extra bonus dmg). 

 

If you have a nice  amount of paralisis hobbed, stun, blind and those, and buffs to event the acuracy to the (+15)  you shoud stop worrying about accuracy as passed that point it decrease its impact. I haven ot scheked it but i gues that if you are not in PoTD you are probable better not using One HAnd unless against very strong enemies

 

Finally, statistics! Much love.

[gkathellar]

 

 

Nobody uses one handed? Guess that's sort of an answer :D

 

I use 1H all the time, with the Jolting Touch stiletto that procs on Crit. 

I admit i do switch to DW once it procs however.

 

 

English please.  "Procs"?

 

 

It's gamer-speak for "triggers."

 

I honestly don't know what the word is short for, but I like to think that it's "procreates."

[Raising]

mi recomendaion of not increasing the accuracy over +15 is only for dmg,  for DOTs and  EFFECTS, crits are more relevant as all is calculated as +0% dmg for dots, and for effects, it have a lot of impact 5 extra sec of paralisis , prone o domination. So if your are aiming for effects go for it

[Looms]

 

English please.  "Procs"?

 

http://netforbeginners.about.com/od/p/f/what_is_proc.htm

[Jimmysdabestcop]

 

how do you achieve 135 deflection without buffs with a priest??

 

16 shield + 12 upgraded +6 (shield + talent) + 5 raw talent + 10 ring + up to 30 stats(durance wont reach this) + 15 base deflection + 36 (level up) = 130, i am missing something?

+5 deflection from Hatchet, but still doesn't explain the stats, unless what he's saying is unbuffed is including something like the Paladin shield, maybe fighter aura too.

 

 

He also has the Cautious Defender Talent and his Res and Per are both enhanced with items.(+3/+2). Buffs I should have specified meaning no spellcasting buffs. No Paladin in party.

 

.....Just double checked my last save it was 125 deflection not 135 on Durance my bad. Still damn high. He had 2 regen items and a 2nd chance item. His spell casting was slooooooooow but honeslty only needed them for boss fights or mini bosses. Probably would have made more sense to bring chanter/paladin or even the ranger NPC along. But I just didn't feel like swapping out party members for when I knew I need priest spells.

 

Act 3 was kind of boring difficulty wise. My entire party was level 12 already at the start. I can also say that by Act 3 I grew super lazy. Tired of microing everyone's spells or encounter abilities. So it was easy to send Durance in and have my 2 fighter engage in melee. With GM, Druid NPC and custom range rogue auto attacking. Maybe throw 1-2 GM cipher attacks out there.

 

Think the only party members who didn't have Second Chance items was Rogue adventurer and GM. Gave Hirvaris that 2nd chance robe. GM did some nice range damage with +3 Might item.