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The leveling and XP curve. What's wrong and the only way to fix it.

Leveling XP

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#141
illathid

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The Bestiary is great. Bestiary XP is dumb.


Agreed. They should just take it out completely. No need for murderhobo XP at all.

#142
Trauma_Hound

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Leveling didn't seem too big of an issue to me, but that's because I filled up all my companion slots ASAP so my guy wasn't getting 2000xp per quest alone at the beginning of the game. Hell, I was only level 11 by the time I killed the Adra Dragon. (I had not completed the story yet). Personally I don't think levels are that big of a deal except only to unlock some cool abilities that are locked via level restraints. I think levels should matter more.



#143
Luckmann

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The Bestiary is great. Bestiary XP is dumb.


This. The reward for filling out the bestiary is that the bestiary is filled out. It's a flavourful asset that serves a purpose in itself. The experience is contrived and counter-intuitive to the idea of goal-oriented experience.

I've said it before and I say it again - I do not think Obsidian ever understood the discussion on Murderhobo-Based Experience vs. Goal-Oriented Experience.
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#144
Matt516

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The Bestiary is great. Bestiary XP is dumb.

This. The reward for filling out the bestiary is that the bestiary is filled out. It's a flavourful asset that serves a purpose in itself. The experience is contrived and counter-intuitive to the idea of goal-oriented experience.

I've said it before and I say it again - I do not think Obsidian ever understood the discussion on Murderhobo-Based Experience vs. Goal-Oriented Experience.

Well, they put lock/trap XP in...

So...... Yeah. I'd say you're right. Either that or they just compromised on the original principles behind their XP system.
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#145
AndreaColombo

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'sides, in this game disarming traps already grants a reward that is often overlooked: You get the trap itself, which you may reuse against the enemy. And traps in PoE are pretty darn deadly. Do we really need to also be gaining XP on top of it?


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#146
View619

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Honestly, we are awarded for every action taken already:

 

  1. Exploration - the joy of finding a new area
  2. Combat - the joy (bear with me) of combat and filling beastiary lore.
  3. Traps - proceeding safely AND gaining a trap.

 

There's literally zero reason for this other than trying to appeal to everybody, which is a mistake IMO. Niche titles and decisions are fine, look at the BG/IWD series and PS:T.

 

Regarding the IE mod with xp requirement increase, it feels a lot better now. Outside of the ****ty AI, battles are proving to be more interesting in Act 2 and I may actually need to do side content to get my characters to "god" status.


Edited by View619, 27 April 2015 - 03:21 PM.


#147
Tigranes

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Playing with 25% increased XP requirements for level up, 3 characters, and I reached level 12 only after doing 8 bounties, half of Act 3 quests and half of the Endless Paths on a fairly completionist playthrough. That's pretty great for me.

 

Of course, you couldn't make this the default - then everybody not doing bounties or skipping some quests would get stuck at level 9 or something. The wailing and gnashing of teeth will be ten times as loud as now. 



#148
View619

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Playing with 25% increased XP requirements for level up, 3 characters, and I reached level 12 only after doing 8 bounties, half of Act 3 quests and half of the Endless Paths on a fairly completionist playthrough. That's pretty great for me.

 

Of course, you couldn't make this the default - then everybody not doing bounties or skipping some quests would get stuck at level 9 or something. The wailing and gnashing of teeth will be ten times as loud as now. 

 

I thought the original idea was that you should be around level 9/10 if you do nothing but the critical path, max level if you go hard on the side content. Isn't this why a lot of end game content is balanced around level 10 parties?


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#149
Zwiebelchen

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Playing with 25% increased XP requirements for level up, 3 characters, and I reached level 12 only after doing 8 bounties, half of Act 3 quests and half of the Endless Paths on a fairly completionist playthrough. That's pretty great for me.

 

Of course, you couldn't make this the default - then everybody not doing bounties or skipping some quests would get stuck at level 9 or something. The wailing and gnashing of teeth will be ten times as loud as now. 

 

I think bounties will be tuned down in the 1.05 balance patch. I'm pretty sure the devs (even while not responding to it) have read these threads and will react according to it. I'm not sure if trap or beastiary XP will be tuned down, but I'm pretty sure they are aware of the ridicolous bounty XP.

 

Bounties are already plenty rewarding in that they provide the only significant challenges in the game (especially on PotD ... holy **** some of those bounties are difficult as ****!) and often feature some unique item drops. I don't see why we need that much XP for that.


Edited by Zwiebelchen, 27 April 2015 - 11:40 PM.


#150
Luckmann

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Playing with 25% increased XP requirements for level up, 3 characters, and I reached level 12 only after doing 8 bounties, half of Act 3 quests and half of the Endless Paths on a fairly completionist playthrough. That's pretty great for me.

 

Of course, you couldn't make this the default - then everybody not doing bounties or skipping some quests would get stuck at level 9 or something. The wailing and gnashing of teeth will be ten times as loud as now. 

 

I think we can and should make it the default. Well, not a blanket 25% increase, of course, but the buffing of experience tables and such as I proposed.

Ending the game at level 9 or 10 is entirely possible. You don't *have* to max out hours upon hours before the endgame, or even at all. I think that if you want to reach the level cap, you should have to work for it, and do most of the content in the game. The cap is supposed to be a high-end cap in terms of overall gameplay, I think - any cap like that should be.

You're not forced to reach the cap, and you're not forced to be at maximum level when the game ends. I think changing it would improve pacing tremendously, *especially* for those that aren't utter completionists.



#151
swordofthesith

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Since this is the more serious discussion on the topic, I'm going to repost it here:

Nerfing XP across the board isn't enough, imo. What's needed is to drop the murderhobo experience and the lockpicking/trap experience, and then increase the necessary experience for levels exponentially, so that higher-level requirements gets bigger than the lower-level requirements.

My proposal was +3% per experience level.

Currently it looks like this:

Level 	1 	2 	3 	4 	5 	6 	7 	8 	9 	10 	11 	12
XP 	0 	1,000 	3,000 	6,000 	10,000 	15,000 	21,000 	28,000 	36,000 	45,000 	55,000 	66,000
My suggestion would result in:
Level 	1 	2 	3 	4 	5 	6 	7 	8 	9 	10 	11 	12
XP 	0 	1,030 	3,180 	6,540	11,200 	17,250 	24,780 	33,880 	44,640 	57,150 	71,500 	87,780
And:
  • No bestiary experience.
  • No experience for lockpicking instead of using keys.
  • No experience from disarming traps instead of evading/tripping.
  • No crazy 10-50% bonus for small parties.
  • Reduce the experience awarded for bounties by ~40%.
The result would be that instead of just shy of level 11 by the end of Act 2, you should be firmly in level 9, maybe just below, assuming you did ~7 levels of Endless Paths of Odd Nua. You would likely not reach level 12 until the very end of the game at best, which is as it should be.

For reference, currently, assuming that you do ~7 levels of Endless Paths, you end up with almost exactly 50 000 experience by the end of Act 2. Or, in other terms, halfway between level 10 and 11. My suggested changes should bump this down to approx. ~40 000 instead - so in the vicinity of "firmly level 8/just about level 9".

Which should actually result in a much better pacing overall.

 

 

+ 1 for this proposal too. 


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#152
Hassat Hunter

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Putting a blanket 25% ontop of it doesn't help if the problem is bounties. If they provide 50% of your XP (they do), then just ramming up XP is going to force these upon you, still being the sore over XP-giving thumb.

 

I say rather than raising XP required to scale with too-OP bounties, nerf the bounty XP (and nuke trap/lockpick XP ofcourse). Then we can see if an increase is needed, probably it wont be. Fix the bug, not balance the game around the bug.

 

Also, I don't disagree with exploration XP. Exploring is a good goal. I also don't mind keeping bestiary now, if only to appease the rabid kill-XP crowd (I kid ;)) at this point. Exploring, fighting, questions... it all should be there in a goal-oriented experience. However arbitrary adding XP to one of several skills (the best one too *facepalm*) is beyond stupid. The goal should matter, however you get there. If the however becomes the rewarded part though, then you're doing goal-oriented XP wrong...



#153
Luckmann

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Putting a blanket 25% ontop of it doesn't help if the problem is bounties. If they provide 50% of your XP (they do), then just ramming up XP is going to force these upon you, still being the sore over XP-giving thumb.

 

I say rather than raising XP required to scale with too-OP bounties, nerf the bounty XP (and nuke trap/lockpick XP ofcourse). Then we can see if an increase is needed, probably it wont be. Fix the bug, not balance the game around the bug.

 

Also, I don't disagree with exploration XP. Exploring is a good goal. I also don't mind keeping bestiary now, if only to appease the rabid kill-XP crowd (I kid ;)) at this point. Exploring, fighting, questions... it all should be there in a goal-oriented experience. However arbitrary adding XP to one of several skills (the best one too *facepalm*) is beyond stupid. The goal should matter, however you get there. If the however becomes the rewarded part though, then you're doing goal-oriented XP wrong...

 

If you award experience for killing, you are really contradicting yourself. You say that the goal should matter, however you got there. Then why should murderhobos be rewarded more? It is already enough of an issue that, with the infinite stash and the bodypart-based enchanting system, you have considerable incentive to just murder your way through everything. Screw appeasing the rabid murderhobos, there's no reason quest and encounter design, nor the XP curve, should be held hostage by that mechanic.







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